Roberto Luongo

[vadim sharifijanov]

No, those are really the only players in his age group that a re going to make the HHOF, unless I missed anyone. Think I covered all of them tho. Except Jagr, but he could retire today or in 4 years for all we know.

patrik elias comes to mind. the only other guy i can think of with any kind of shot is brad richards, because of his CS, or i guess maybe patrick marleau if he continues to compile until he's jagr's age.

The latter part of the 2000s and the 2010s aren't great for standout goalies, you're right. It comes to the point where Kipper is almost a borderline guy for this generation.

As for Tony Esposito, I think he probably had some more elite seasons than Luongo, but not by much either. He too looked bad in his lone two trips to the final. In 1971 he let in that awful center ice shot by Lemaire and that was in Game 7. In 1973 the less you talk about his performance against Montreal the better. Esposito was the best goalie on either team in the 1972 Summit Series, so like Luongo in 2010 he has that for Canada.

I'm also in the camp that the Vachon omission has been a mistake. It wouldn't make the HHOF any cheaper if he got in. From the exact same era isn't Vachon superior to Cheevers? I think he is. Either way, if Luongo doesn't get in from this era, then all you have is Lundqvist.

kiprusoff is an interesting one. i have him ahead of tim thomas, actually, and only behind luongo due to longevity/stats compiling.

Right.......my apologies, every game but Game 6 - not game 4 as I said - he did keep the Canucks in the game well into the 2nd at least. Again, I am not saying he doesn't deserve the blame to an extent, but how Kesler and the Sedins get off the hook for this one is beyond me.

kesler got a pass because he was playing with a torn labrum.

no one at any point in their careers has ever given the sedins a pass for anything, least of all for their performance in the 2011 stanley cup finals.

 

[Voight]

patrik elias comes to mind. the only other guy i can think of with any kind of shot is brad richards, because of his CS, or i guess maybe patrick marleau if he continues to compile until he's jagr's age.

Never considered Elias for the HHOF, although he and Richards both have always had good reputations and some good seasons so who knows.

Marleau yea if he compiles like crazy, but then again he could find himself in Andreychuk territory.

 

[Big Phil]

Never considered Elias for the HHOF, although he and Richards both have always had good reputations and some good seasons so who knows.

Marleau yea if he compiles like crazy, but then again he could find himself in Andreychuk territory.

I've said that about Elias as well, not a whole lot different than Brad Richards. I don't induct either of them.

But we aren't going to ever start considering Marleau are we? It does get me nervous that players can get the "Dave Andreychuk treatment". In other words, never in our wildest imaginations do we ever think they are HHOFers during their careers, other than just good players, yet they hit a couple of shiny numbers (despite being well below the acceptable PPG range for their era) and we figure they are legit. Marleau had one season - 2010 - where I would consider him to have been above the "very good" standard. Even then, his best attribute that season was finishing 4th in goals, so I'd like to think we aren't dropping to that standard.

kesler got a pass because he was playing with a torn labrum.

no one at any point in their careers has ever given the sedins a pass for anything, least of all for their performance in the 2011 stanley cup finals.

People just always seem to remember Luongo as the one who failed the Canucks that year and it isn't true. He at least had some good games in the final.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Never considered Elias for the HHOF, although he and Richards both have always had good reputations and some good seasons so who knows.

Marleau yea if he compiles like crazy, but then again he could find himself in Andreychuk territory.

I've said that about Elias as well, not a whole lot different than Brad Richards. I don't induct either of them.

richards, very very long shot, and probably only if he has some crazy late-career renaissance a la teemu. still, he has a couple of very good years and the CS though. but i look at his career, with his three top ten years, him being a consistent top five assist guy for a stretch, a cup run that imo was pretty spectacular and legend-making and probably doesn't get enough recognition because it got buried by the year-long lockout, and if richards sticks around for two more seasons and doesn't fall off a cliff, he's got 1,000 points. maybe he bounces around for another half decade, compiles a bunch more numbers, catches on with another contender and... omg three cups with three different teams. it's only 2015 and he's already had a better career than joe nieuwendyk...

elias i don't question much. clear just north of the borderline guy for me. between him, alfredsson, and hossa, most people would probably take him last. i'd take him first. best forward on a cup winner, peaked the highest offensively, to me he's kind of mark recchi if mark recchi's big scoring years were in a garbage low-scoring era.

But we aren't going to ever start considering Marleau are we? It does get me nervous that players can get the "Dave Andreychuk treatment". In other words, never in our wildest imaginations do we ever think they are HHOFers during their careers, other than just good players, yet they hit a couple of shiny numbers (despite being well below the acceptable PPG range for their era) and we figure they are legit. Marleau had one season - 2010 - where I would consider him to have been above the "very good" standard. Even then, his best attribute that season was finishing 4th in goals, so I'd like to think we aren't dropping to that standard.

everybody says dave andreychuk. but one single year where he finished top five in goals, long unspectacular but consistent and mostly healthy career of being usually good in the regular season and usually dog crap in the playoffs, speedy winger, clean and not particularly physical but also not soft even though he drove coaches nuts because he could have been a power forward if he wasn't such a nice guy, won a couple medals with canada as a utility third liner, never finished higher than 4th in all-star voting, a player that totally didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. that's not dave andreychuk, that's ________. (aww, you guys know who i'm talking about.)

People just always seem to remember Luongo as the one who failed the Canucks that year and it isn't true. He at least had some good games in the final.

three excellent games, two games that weren't good enough, two absolute scorch the earth stinkers. but i think most people tend to remember that the entire team and system collapsed in game 3 and never recovered. i don't think luongo gets any more heat, at least in vancouver, than the sedins, ehrhoff (who a lot of people ran out of town, then almost immediately wished we'd re-signed), the mind-boggling coaching staff, even poor tanner hands of stone glass.

 

[Big Phil]

richards, very very long shot, and probably only if he has some crazy late-career renaissance a la teemu. still, he has a couple of very good years and the CS though. but i look at his career, with his three top ten years, him being a consistent top five assist guy for a stretch, a cup run that imo was pretty spectacular and legend-making and probably doesn't get enough recognition because it got buried by the year-long lockout, and if richards sticks around for two more seasons and doesn't fall off a cliff, he's got 1,000 points. maybe he bounces around for another half decade, compiles a bunch more numbers, catches on with another contender and... omg three cups with three different teams. it's only 2015 and he's already had a better career than joe nieuwendyk...

I am not a fan of Nieuwendyk in there. Mark Recchi is a guy with a better career who won three Cups with three different teams as well if that's what they were looking for. Mike Keane, Al Arbour and Claude Lemieux did it too. So that was Nieuwendyk's bread and butter, and that wasn't enough for me.

Richards had his best Hart finishes at 22nd and 26th. He gets a lot of miles on that Smythe in 2004, and I'll give him a lot of credit but when did he have even just one season where he was elite? 2010 might be his best year and I'll best most of us forgot he was 7th in scoring that year. Good player, very good career but he'd open up a heck of a lot of doors. Vincent Damphousse had better expect his name in that case.

elias i don't question much. clear just north of the borderline guy for me. between him, alfredsson, and hossa, most people would probably take him last. i'd take him first. best forward on a cup winner, peaked the highest offensively, to me he's kind of mark recchi if mark recchi's big scoring years were in a garbage low-scoring era.

I always have him out. Definitely behind Hossa and Alfie. Behind BrindAmour in my book, or at least no better than him. Is there much that separates him and Brian Propp?

Elias gets a lot of miles out of that 2001 season. He was good, no doubt. 1st team all-star, 96 points, best forward en route to the Cup final in a losing cause. He also is mentioned as the Devils' best forward during the 2000, 2001 and 2003 runs, which included two Cups. That's great, however, can you name the Leafs HHOF defenseman from their 1940s Cup winning teams? You can name Syl Apps, Ted Kennedy and Max Bentley as their centers right? You know Hap Day coached them and Turk Broda was in net. You know Bill Barilko was on those teams but went missing in 1951. But their defense was just a solid bunch of defensemen, steady, not spectacular but they met their needs. So in other words, a guy standing out on that defense would REALLY stand out right?

It is sort of the same thing with the Devils of that era. To this day that entire franchise has never had a 100 point scorer. Scott Stevens holds their single season assist record. To be frank, this was a team built around offense by committee and strong defense and goaltending. Elias was important, sure, but he was interchangeable.

Recchi tops him any day of the week for me by the way. Elias has a worse career PPG than Brad Richards and he had a lot of gaps in his career where you figure he could have done more. But he's only got 2001 as a great season. Leading your team in scoring doesn't mean a whole lot when you have 57 points in 2003 and no one has more than that.

everybody says dave andreychuk. but one single year where he finished top five in goals, long unspectacular but consistent and mostly healthy career of being usually good in the regular season and usually dog crap in the playoffs, speedy winger, clean and not particularly physical but also not soft even though he drove coaches nuts because he could have been a power forward if he wasn't such a nice guy, won a couple medals with canada as a utility third liner, never finished higher than 4th in all-star voting, a player that totally didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. that's not dave andreychuk, that's ________. (aww, you guys know who i'm talking about.)

Marleau. I wouldn't put him in either, he'd open a can of worms.

 

[Voight]

I am not a fan of Nieuwendyk in there. Mark Recchi is a guy with a better career who won three Cups with three different teams as well if that's what they were looking for. Mike Keane, Al Arbour and Claude Lemieux did it too. So that was Nieuwendyk's bread and butter, and that wasn't enough for me.

Richards had his best Hart finishes at 22nd and 26th. He gets a lot of miles on that Smythe in 2004, and I'll give him a lot of credit but when did he have even just one season where he was elite? 2010 might be his best year and I'll best most of us forgot he was 7th in scoring that year. Good player, very good career but he'd open up a heck of a lot of doors. Vincent Damphousse had better expect his name in that case.



I always have him out. Definitely behind Hossa and Alfie. Behind BrindAmour in my book, or at least no better than him. Is there much that separates him and Brian Propp?

Elias gets a lot of miles out of that 2001 season. He was good, no doubt. 1st team all-star, 96 points, best forward en route to the Cup final in a losing cause. He also is mentioned as the Devils' best forward during the 2000, 2001 and 2003 runs, which included two Cups. That's great, however, can you name the Leafs HHOF defenseman from their 1940s Cup winning teams? You can name Syl Apps, Ted Kennedy and Max Bentley as their centers right? You know Hap Day coached them and Turk Broda was in net. You know Bill Barilko was on those teams but went missing in 1951. But their defense was just a solid bunch of defensemen, steady, not spectacular but they met their needs. So in other words, a guy standing out on that defense would REALLY stand out right?

It is sort of the same thing with the Devils of that era. To this day that entire franchise has never had a 100 point scorer. Scott Stevens holds their single season assist record. To be frank, this was a team built around offense by committee and strong defense and goaltending. Elias was important, sure, but he was interchangeable.

Recchi tops him any day of the week for me by the way. Elias has a worse career PPG than Brad Richards and he had a lot of gaps in his career where you figure he could have done more. But he's only got 2001 as a great season. Leading your team in scoring doesn't mean a whole lot when you have 57 points in 2003 and no one has more than that.

Great post, really agree & like your opinion here.

Yea as for Richards, even with his CS he's only got 104 points in 141 playoff games. So he can't really bank off of being this great playoff performer who also had some elite regular seasons. Otherwise he may have more steam.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Phil, just keep fighting the good ol "Elias is no better than Propp" fight until he gets inducted.

 

[Voight]

Phil, just keep fighting the good ol "Elias is no better than Propp" fight until he gets inducted.

Elias would be one of the weaker HHOF inductees in recent memory. But he might gain steam for being the first Devils-Only player in their.

 

[Ishdul]

I don't know whether Elias (probably), Richards (maybe) or Marleau (I hope not) will get in the Hall, but there are always some outright bad inductions and they always induct more forwards than you would want. People are expecting the Hall to get a lot stingier than normal in a time coming up when there will be a shortage of new candidates, and I don't see it happening.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

ftr i don't think richards should get in. i just think he's better than nieuwendyk. far better than lecavalier every year of their almost identically overlapping careers exccept that one crazy rocket richard year. levavalier, i mean he is near the primeau level of being overrated for great physical tools, perceived potential, dubious leadership/captaincy, and being good exactly once.

elias-- i didn't mean he was as good as recchi, just that they had similarly underrated careers, especially post-peak where you would be surprised when you looked at the sports pages and there they would be again in the top ten in scoring. both were also inconsistent year-to-year, or at least had some puzzling down years, but their highs were very high and they made up for some wasted prime years with surprising late prime years when most people thought they were done as elite scorers.

 

[Big Phil]

Phil, just keep fighting the good ol "Elias is no better than Propp" fight until he gets inducted.

Okay TDMM, you are a Devils fan. You have to admit you might not have the most objective opinion of Elias, no?

But look at it objectively, does he have a better career than Brad Richards? This is seriously a good comparison for him and I don't see one being better than the other to be honest. You may not like the Propp comparison, but how does Elias have a better career than him? Or Brian Bellows? Or Vincent Damphousse? The point is, he has a career value that is very similar to all of those names. None should get into the HHOF.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Okay TDMM, you are a Devils fan. You have to admit you might not have the most objective opinion of Elias, no?

And you hate everything about the Devils team that ruined the seasons of the best Leafs teams of the last 20 years. So lets not play the "I'm objective and you aren't" card.

But look at it objectively, does he have a better career than Brad Richards?

Yes.

You may not like the Propp comparison, but how does Elias have a better career than him?

Much better regular season statistics, more team success. I mean, I've gone over this with you several times before in detail....

Or Brian Bellows? Or Vincent Damphousse? The point is, he has a career value that is very similar to all of those names. None should get into the HHOF.

Ah, I see. From the names you are giving, it seems like you think that more recent players should be held to the raw statistical accomplishments of players who played in the high scoring mid 1970s - mid 1990s era. It's quite possible that the current HHOF Committee agrees with you, but they won't forever. Or else they are going to have a serious shortage of players to induct every year.

 

[seventieslord]

ftr i don't think richards should get in. i just think he's better than nieuwendyk. far better than lecavalier every year of their almost identically overlapping careers exccept that one crazy rocket richard year. levavalier, i mean he is near the primeau level of being overrated for great physical tools, perceived potential, dubious leadership/captaincy, and being good exactly once.

How could Richards have been far better than Lecavalier every year when, excluding his 18 year old season, Lecavalier has all of 4 fewer points (but 110 more goals) in 21 more career games?

I dunno, I'd probably take richards overall as well, I just think this post takes it to a crazy extreme. They have almost identical 7-year vsx scores, and Lecavalier had two regular seasons better than any Richards had. There's no way what you're saying can be entirely true.

 

[Killion]

Okay TDMM, you are a Devils fan. You have to admit you might not have the most objective opinion of Elias, no?

Elias has a better career arc than all those guys Phil, you kiddin? Holds just about every single team record for the Devils, outstanding player who should be a lock for the HHOF no problem.

And you hate everything about the Devils team that ruined the seasons of the best Leafs teams of the last 20 years. So lets not play the "I'm objective and you aren't" card.

... welp, Im a Leafs fan too, and I surely dont feel that way about the Devils in any way whatsoever. Those Leaf teams deserved to be destroyed. All hype. Fakes. Any real Leaf fan, anyone with even the most rudimentary hockey knowledge wouldve been able to spot that..... Anyhoo... Loved Elias (past & present tense), Madden, Stevens, Rafalski, Holik, Lemeiux etc... whole line-up really & for quite a number of years including the rental players who played for the logo on the front of their jerseys & forgot about their names being on the back.. In particular, watching Brodeur, the last of the great wandering goaltenders who at times quarterbacked the Devils transition from defense to offense, technically one of the greatest goaltenders of All Time. Full tool box that one. Nice & quiet about it too. While a great many criticized the Devils system play, I for one greatly admired it. There are in fact several players from those great Devils teams worthy of consideration for induction. Absolutely. Elias, honestly, shouldnt even be a debate about it.

 

[Voight]

Much better regular season statistics, more team success. I mean, I've gone over this with you several times before in detail....

Regardless, Propp isnt in the HHOF for a reason, and to be honest Elias shouldn't really go in either, but having all those meaningless NJD records might sway the voters in his favour.

 

[seventieslord]

Regardless, Propp isnt in the HHOF for a reason, and to be honest Elias shouldn't really go in either, but having all those meaningless NJD records might sway the voters in his favour.

It's hard to believe there are people who frequent this section who wouldn't put the likes of Elias and Hossa in the hall. How many wingers who peaked in the last 17 years should make it? Iginla, st Louis and ovechkin and that's it? How many made it from the 18 years before that?

 

[Big Phil]

Elias has a better career arc than all those guys Phil, you kiddin? Holds just about every single team record for the Devils, outstanding player who should be a lock for the HHOF no problem.

Scott Stevens holds the record for most assists in a season in a Devils uniform..........with 60. We're talking Scott Stevens here. When a defenseman holds an important franchise offensive record is that REALLY a high standard here? Stevens may have had more offense prior to 1995, but he still wasn't Paul Coffey either, so let's not pretend being at the top of Devils offensive records is anything special. This is a team that never had a 100 point man.

And you hate everything about the Devils team that ruined the seasons of the best Leafs teams of the last 20 years. So lets not play the "I'm objective and you aren't" card.

Then you'd think I loathe Scott Stevens for that matter, and I don't. I'm as big of a Maple Leaf critic as there is. The Leafs earned their losses in 2000 and 2001. The Devils did have a hand in turning the game into watching paint dry, but this was long before 2000. It really has nothing to do with Elias.

Yes.

How? Honestly, I've seen the career of Richards and Elias. I wouldn't put either in the HHOF because they are close to one another. Richards has one of the better Conn Smythe runs in recent memory. How is Elias any better? You must have some reason why you think this.

Much better regular season statistics, more team success. I mean, I've gone over this with you several times before in detail....

Propp made the final 5 times. Lost to some dynasty teams and yet contributed greatly each time his team went far. There isn't a much more hard luck player in NHL history than Brian Propp. If you want to give the edge to Elias in regular season play, fine, but exactly by how much? It is hardly worth mentioning. Their playoff careers are pretty much the same. Can you really dismiss Propp's playoff heroics over Elias'?

Ah, I see. From the names you are giving, it seems like you think that more recent players should be held to the raw statistical accomplishments of players who played in the high scoring mid 1970s - mid 1990s era. It's quite possible that the current HHOF Committee agrees with you, but they won't forever. Or else they are going to have a serious shortage of players to induct every year.

You know I've been on these boards long enough and seen enough hockey to be more than just a fantasy stats guy from a higher scoring era. Elias' 2001 season was better than the best of Bellows or Damphousse, or Propp or Larmer for instance. That being said Larmer probably has a season as good as him and was far more consistent year in and year out, was always good in the postseason and it showed, and also contributed to his Cup. What I am saying is that these guys are mostly wingers and I wouldn't put them in at all. Elias is a player that could definitely open up doors for others.

Hall of Very Good, that's where he should remain.

 

[Big Phil]

It's hard to believe there are people who frequent this section who wouldn't put the likes of Elias and Hossa in the hall. How many wingers who peaked in the last 17 years should make it? Iginla, st Louis and ovechkin and that's it? How many made it from the 18 years before that?

Hossa has earned his stripes for sure. No argument there.

What wingers in the last 17 years do you think should have made it that haven't?

 

[Hawksfan2828]

I would put Brad Richards in the Reggie Leach category...

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Hossa belongs in the HOF..... He has consistently been such a great 2-way player for over a decade... He deserves a Selke just because...

 

[Doctor No]

Is this the all-purpose HHOF discussion thread, or is it still about Luongo?

 

[Hawksfan2828]

The issue I have with Luongo is the fact that he wasn't (isn't) a goalie that didn't have a gifted team, he had one but choked...

I think the powers that be will certainly consider that....

It's not like Luongo was a goalie that somehow lifted his team but lost because they choked or couldn't provide enough - no - he didn't come up big when he had to..

This is interesting because many goalies have been able to do what Luongo couldn't..

 

[Czech Your Math]

Is this the all-purpose HHOF discussion thread, or is it still about Luongo?

It's not even certain that it's still about goalies.

 

[haakon84]

The issue I have with Luongo is the fact that he wasn't (isn't) a goalie that didn't have a gifted team, he had one but choked...

I think the powers that be will certainly consider that....

It's not like Luongo was a goalie that somehow lifted his team but lost because they choked or couldn't provide enough - no - he didn't come up big when he had to..

This is interesting because many goalies have been able to do what Luongo couldn't..

This doesn't also apply to Lundqvist? Henrik could not have allowed 12 goals in 2 games against the lightning last year. He was also outplayed by Quick the year before and Brodeur the year before that. I'm not so sure why he is such a "lock" while people are unsure about Luongo.

I just don't see how their careers are not comparable. Luongo never had a franchise develop around him while Lundqvist has. Luongo's peak is higher than Lundqvist.

I really don't want to hear about Vezina finishes because we all know that is bogus with Sather stacking the deck.

 

[Voight]

The issue I have with Luongo is the fact that he wasn't (isn't) a goalie that didn't have a gifted team, he had one but choked...

I think the powers that be will certainly consider that....

It's not like Luongo was a goalie that somehow lifted his team but lost because they choked or couldn't provide enough - no - he didn't come up big when he had to..

This is interesting because many goalies have been able to do what Luongo couldn't..

He choked? Yea or, you know, his entire team collapsed and forgot how to score goals. Not saying he didn't have and games, but how do you expect to win when the team in front can't score a goal in 2/7 games, scores 1 in another game and overall does not score more than 3 goals in any game of the series?

Bruins scored TWENTY-ONE goals in the finals, Vancouver scored eight. When the other team almost triples you in goals for, you're going to lose even if Patty Roy is in net.