Speculation: Robert Hägg

[deadhead]

I enjoy self-appointed experts on internet boards.
Look forward to hear about your appointment to a NHL analytic staff.

 

[Starat327]

I enjoy self-appointed experts on internet boards.
Look forward to hear about your appointment to a NHL analytic staff.

Not claiming to be an expert by any means.

Just saying I'm not someone who judges defense by 2 particular metrics and then backtracks when someone shows me a player I don't like is, in fact, the best on the team in those metrics. Can you say the same?

 

[deadhead]

I'm not out to win arguments because no one pays me here.
I just like discussing things and maybe learning.
But I don't learn much from people who rely on blanket statements, "he stinks" "he's great"

 

[Starat327]

And no one learns anything when you make a statement then refuse to acknowledge that a particular player has the best metrics in those stats.

Edit: I take that back. We all learned something. It just wasn't what we set out to learn.

I think most of us are just here to discuss hockey and have fun(there's a few that are here just to stir shit, I know), it's just hard to do when some are dishonest about it, that's all.

 

[deadhead]

If we want to talk "dishonesty" we know who leads the pack.
I rarely come to definite conclusions, because I'm aware how limited our knowledge is.

Hagg is a good example, I don't KNOW he's turned it around, I know he's been posting great advanced metrics since Tahoe and hasn't been making the egregious errors he made in the beginning of the season and previous years.

Friedman is so much better than Hagg? Well, Friedman is basically the 8th D-man in Pittsburgh, playing 13 minutes a night.
6 Pens D-men played 16+ minutes, the 7th, 21 year old Pierre-Olivier Joseph, after a year in the AHL played 16:47. The 8th, 30 year old JAG Chad Ruhwedel played 14:42, that's who Friedman replaced when healthy. So Friedman is getting limited usage - despite being 25 with 3 years of college and 3 years of AHL, and half the season to study the Pen system from the press box. Unless Sullivan is an idiot, of course.

As far as Ghost, he's skating better than he has in three years, but he's still not the same player he was in 2017-18. Since Lake Tahoe he's been up and down, while he's had a nice recent stretch, over that 40 game stretch Provorov, Sanheim and Braun have a better xGF and xGFrel. Would you protect him over Myers?

 

[Starat327]

If we want to talk "dishonesty" we know who leads the pack.
I rarely come to definite conclusions, because I'm aware how limited our knowledge is.

Hagg is a good example, I don't KNOW he's turned it around, I know he's been posting great advanced metrics since Tahoe and hasn't been making the egregious errors he made in the beginning of the season and previous years.

Friedman is so much better than Hagg? Well, Friedman is basically the 8th D-man in Pittsburgh, playing 13 minutes a night.
6 Pens D-men played 16+ minutes, the 7th, 21 year old Pierre-Olivier Joseph, after a year in the AHL played 16:47. The 8th, 30 year old JAG Chad Ruhwedel played 14:42, that's who Friedman replaced when healthy. So Friedman is getting limited usage - despite being 25 with 3 years of college and 3 years of AHL, and half the season to study the Pen system from the press box. Unless Sullivan is an idiot, of course.

As far as Ghost, he's skating better than he has in three years, but he's still not the same player he was in 2017-18. Since Lake Tahoe he's been up and down, while he's had a nice recent stretch, over that 40 game stretch Provorov, Sanheim and Braun have a better xGF and xGFrel. Would you protect him over Myers?

I read all this and all I came away with was "I still refuse to admit I was wrong about ghost being the best defensive defensemen on the roster Despite using my own predefined metrics to measure said performance".

And yet you still have the gall to talk about anybody else being dishonest.

 

[Striiker]

And no one learns anything when you make a statement then refuse to acknowledge that a particular player has the best metrics in those stats.

Edit: I take that back. We all learned something. It just wasn't what we set out to learn.

I think most of us are just here to discuss hockey and have fun(there's a few that are here just to stir shit, I know), it's just hard to do when some are dishonest about it, that's all.

Yeah, when people attempt to have honest conversations and are constantly met with contradictions and blatant lies, it ends up like this. You just did this recently - and were far more patient than they deserved - and it ended up exactly as it always does.

There's a reason that most people get along just fine, even when they disagree, and it's a specific group of contrarians that are on the outside. They can only blame themselves.

 

[deadhead]

I read all this and all I came away with was "I still refuse to admit I was wrong about ghost being the best defensive defensemen on the roster Despite using my own predefined metrics to measure said performance".

And yet you still have the gall to talk about anybody else being dishonest.

By what metrics is Ghost the best defenseman on the roster?

 

[Starat327]

By what metrics is Ghost the best defenseman on the roster?

You listed xgf% and HDCA/60 as your preferred methods of evaluating defense. At the time - and I haven't looked recently, so it may have changed now - he led both categories. You refused to acknowledge it, citing some random excuse, I cant remember what it was anymore, but it was some way to randomly cut data to fit the narrative. Similar to this Tahoe thing you keep piping out, as if seeing the mountains was a turning point in career arcs.

 

[deadhead]

The Lake Tahoe is pretty obvious, 13 game start coming off a one week TC, then a week off followed by a debacle with half the team out, so using that as the second half cutoff is reasonable, wouldn't you say? 41 games since Tahoe after Monday, so a pretty solid sample.

One reason I use it is it gives a feeling how the team changed after it came back.
Most players put up good advanced metrics, but on-ice Sh% cratered for a few players, Patrick, Hayes, Sanheim, Laughton (and Allison since he joined the team, but that seems to be more common for rookies at the start of their career).
Don't know why, but I'd keep that in mind looking at scoring stats.

Ghost was not the best defenseman the second half, maybe the last couple weeks, but the whole defense has generally improved since March.
If you just go from April 1 (last 20 games): xGF/xGFrel/HDCA/60
Hagg 55.92% / +2.70 / 8.48
Sanheim 54.48% / +3.92 / 8.65
Myers 52.75% / +0.32 / 11.15
Provorov 52.19% / +0.28 / 10.29
Ghost 50.72% / -1.00 / 7.48
Braun 49.41% / -3.88 / 9.79

 

[Striiker]

You listed xgf% and HDCA/60 as your preferred methods of evaluating defense. At the time - and I haven't looked recently, so it may have changed now - he led both categories. You refused to acknowledge it, citing some random excuse, I cant remember what it was anymore, but it was some way to randomly cut data to fit the narrative. Similar to this Tahoe thing you keep piping out, as if seeing the mountains was a turning point in career arcs.

At 5v5, Ghost is currently...

2nd in xGF% (behind Sanheim)
1st in xGA/60
1st in HDCA/60
1st in points/60
1st in goals/60

... with one game left in the season.

This is also while having to play with bad partners nearly all year long and while getting far less time with the top forwards at 5v5 than guys like Provorov, Braun, or Sanheim.

Bonus fun fact: Provorov has his best numbers with Ghost this year, meaning that Ghost did better on the "top pair" than anyone else who has been there, including Provorov. Might not be a 3rd pair PP specialist after all.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

At 5v5, Ghost is currently...

2nd in xGF% (behind Sanheim)
1st in xGA/60
1st in HDCA/60
1st in points/60
1st in goals/60

... with one game left in the season.

This is also while having to play with bad partners nearly all year long and while getting far less time with the top forwards at 5v5 than guys like Provorov, Braun, or Sanheim.

Bonus fun fact: Provorov has his best numbers with Ghost this year, meaning that Ghost did better on the "top pair" than anyone else who has been there, including Provorov. Might not be a 3rd pair PP specialist after all.

Fake news

 

[DancingPanther]

Shut this f***ing thread down. f***.

 

[Starat327]

Shut this f***ing thread down. f***.

<3 u

 

[zizbuka]

Because Hagg isn't as bad as some like to say. He's the current bandwagon scapegoat, that's what some Flyers fans do.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

Because Hagg isn't as bad as some like to say. He's the current bandwagon scapegoat, that's what some Flyers fans do.

Same was said about Mandog. He was out of the league very fast! Same with vandevelde. Same with Bizeps......

 

[TCTC]

Same was said about Mandog. He was out of the league very fast! Same with vandevelde. Same with Bizeps......

Hagg and Manning aren't really comparable though. Manning was an undrafted overachiever who only made it to the NHL because we had no depth.
Hagg was a 2nd round pick who added some size when our defense was relatively small. For a 2nd round pick his development may have been disappointing, but there are worse bottom pair defensemen in the league.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hagg and Manning aren't really comparable though. Manning was an undrafted overachiever who only made it to the NHL because we had no depth.
Hagg was a 2nd round pick who added some size when our defense was relatively small. For a 2nd round pick his development may have been disappointing, but there are worse bottom pair defensemen in the league.

There are very very very few worse defensemen. Maybe one or two. And that's been the problem.

 

[Eye of Ra]

good luck in seattle!

 

[Jettany]

Hagg and Manning aren't really comparable though. Manning was an undrafted overachiever who only made it to the NHL because we had no depth.
Hagg was a 2nd round pick who added some size when our defense was relatively small. For a 2nd round pick his development may have been disappointing, but there are worse bottom pair defensemen in the league.

Interesting. What GM brought both to the flyers? And resigned them both twice? That’s right it was fletcher.

 

[Magua]

good luck in seattle!

 

[ponder719]

good luck in seattle!

From your lips to Ron's ears, Ra.

 

[Striiker]

How does this gif have a higher resolution than real life?

 

[StarterHart]

good luck in seattle!

 

[Eye of Ra]

he might come back