Speculation: Ristolainen's Price is High, Sabres Want a Mantha-Caliber Player in Return

[Gniwder]

"Proving" my point to you means zero. Mantha is an average winger in the NHL with "potential" deal with it.

Mantha had 25 goals which was good for 72nd place in the league (all positions). If the team could find 6 more average wingers, they'd probably win the Cup. If you actually looked at stats, you'd realize he's an average FIRST LINE winger in goal production and a 1st/second line tweener in terms of point production.

I honestly can't figure out why anyone is talking about trading AA or Mantha this offseason. Vanek and Nyke are gone, so the only returning players who scored more than 10 goals are DBoss, AA, Mantha and Bert. The next top goal scorer was Luke GlenF'ingDening. Yeah, trade away Mantha and/or AA, I love watching LGD on the second line.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I always hated that with Nyquist and Tatar. Yeah they didn’t become what we hoped and dreamed for, but they are surefire top 6 forwards.

Was so annoying when people called them tweeners. Yeah 1st/2nd line tweeners... not 2nd/3rd line

Completely agree with this point.

Also cap percentages need to start being announced with each contract. It might help people be a little calmer during the process. I think people struggle to understand what roles have been getting paid what for a little while now. There is a number at play there in terms of your team capologist. These teams do try to tie value to certain guys. They talk about them that way when you hear rumors about it for a reason. Nyquist and Tatar were never shopped nationally as anything but a top 6 forward.

Like others have said that Mantha represents a considerable return probably isn't the worst. I just would rather us after waiting all this time lock him up and gamble on his production ourselves.

 

[deca guard]

I don’t think he has an attitude issue or a conditioning issue. By all accounts (having friends who have worked with the Griffins during his time there) he actually is extremely determined off the ice. He seems to know and take ownership in the fact that he can be better. What he needs is the swagger and confidence in his ability. Down the stretch of last season and into WC, we saw what he is capable of when he knows he’s on a different level. He has the ability to take over games, and he just needs to believe it.

thanx for the griff report . may sound stupid but i noticed hes born same day as me and near every september person ive known have been sort of not swaggering types , and more so less aggresive or less arrogant types . and they need to get everything in perfect order , huge perfectionist , before they can get on a roll . so maybe once he gets every thing in order mentally he attains star level

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Mantha had 25 goals which was good for 72nd place in the league (all positions). If the team could find 6 more average wingers, they'd probably win the Cup. If you actually looked at stats, you'd realize he's an average FIRST LINE winger in goal production and a 1st/second line tweener in terms of point production.

I honestly can't figure out why anyone is talking about trading AA or Mantha this offseason. Vanek and Nyke are gone, so the only returning players who scored more than 10 goals are DBoss, AA, Mantha and Bert. The next top goal scorer was Luke GlenF'ingDening. Yeah, trade away Mantha and/or AA, I love watching LGD on the second line.

Zadina is suppose to be better than Mantha. I'd rather have Risto and Zadina than Zadina and Mantha going forward....

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

I don’t think you know what an average winger in the NHL is. He scored enough to be statistically in the conversation among the top 90-100 some forwards. That means statistically he probably falls somewhere on a first line in the NHL, even if talent was equally distributed, which it’s not, so his case is even further cemented. There are 368 forwards who played 500+ minutes this year. He’s not average, he’s quite obviously above average.

But you are right about one thing, he does have potential. A first line winger with untapped potential to improve...man that’s an asset I wish my team had. Oh wait...

We will see how much praise you guys are singing for Mantha when he goes pointless in 15+ game stretches next year / gets hurt again...

 

[Gniwder]

We will see how much praise you guys are singing for Mantha when he goes pointless in 15+ game stretches next year / gets hurt again...

I'm hoping he breaks his hand on Trouba, Pietrangelo, or Barrie this season.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

I'm hoping he breaks his hand on Trouba, Pietrangelo, or Barrie this season.

Lol.

 

[Oddbob]

I'm hoping he breaks his hand on Trouba, Pietrangelo, or Barrie this season.

He should suck it up and break his hand on McDavid, any top end defender, as that is more valuable than any goals he may score! HEHEHE!

 

[Gniwder]

He should suck it up and break his hand on McDavid, any top end defender, as that is more valuable than any goals he may score! HEHEHE!

Let's be somewhat realistic here, McDavid isn't going anywhere. I picked UFAs for him to break his hand on.

 

[Oddbob]

Let's be somewhat realistic here, McDavid isn't going anywhere. I picked UFAs for him to break his hand on.

Yeah I know, but we gotta hope big!

 

[Gniwder]

Yeah I know, but we gotta hope big!

What if he breaks one hand on Josi and the other hand on Pietrangelo?

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

There just isn't a move to be made. Detroit values Mantha and Buffalo Risto.

 

[ricky0034]

I don’t think you know what an average winger in the NHL is. He scored enough to be statistically in the conversation among the top 90-100 some forwards. That means statistically he probably falls somewhere on a first line in the NHL, even if talent was equally distributed, which it’s not, so his case is even further cemented. There are 368 forwards who played 500+ minutes this year. He’s not average, he’s quite obviously above average.

But you are right about one thing, he does have potential. A first line winger with untapped potential to improve...man that’s an asset I wish my team had. Oh wait...

is calling someone that was 104th out of those 368 guys you mentioned in points average really something to get so up in arms about?

that's like the definition of semantics right there

 

[Hen Kolland]

is calling someone that was 104th out of those 368 guys you mentioned in points average really something to get so up in arms about?

that's like the definition of semantics right there

Not that I want to get into a semantical argument about arguing semantics but:

The statistic that I used for the sake of placing Mantha was P/60, which gets a little finicky because you have to consider games played and TOI. I isolated the data set to just forwards, although I don’t recall what amount of TOI qualifier I put on the search, but the results placed him in the top 50 in G/60 and the top 100 in P/60.

I believe someone has already mentioned it in this thread, but if you extrapolate Mantha’s performance this year over a full season (even if it’s only 75 games, which I’ll do for the sake of this discussion), that puts him at 29 goals and 54 points. 29 goals would have him tied for 46th in the league in goals, and 54 points would have him tied for 89th in points. Both scenarios you look at put him in the range of what would be considered a first line forward from a statistical production perspective.

I don’t need to explain to you that “average winger in hockey” does not mean the same thing as “first line winger in hockey”, but that’s the point that I was illustrating.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I am not sure it's a good idea to pay more for a worse player than teams did for subban, trouba or Miller.

If buffalo moves him its because they have to(cap issues, salary demands, player demands, team philosophy changes etc) not because some team called them up with an overpayment they couldnt refuse

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I agree with a lot of this. However, I seriously doubt Mantha is going to be cheap this time next year. If he does come in cheap something has gone terribly wrong and we couldn't hope to go for even a Risto. You're not going to get the big defensive add via trade without some risk.

I like Risto enough to consider AA in a deal. Still I think we have spoken for the right side. The desperation level to take the chance is down and our wants actually seem to be on the left.

We are going to eventually do some risky things though. You cannot sit on the sidelines forever, the NHL doesn't really work for those teams often in my opinion.

The we can keep all our valuable assets and hoodwink other teams is a bold strategy. Especially with Chia out of the league and Benning probably right behind him.

Right and I’ve been a huge proponent of that for literally every trade offer except for Ristolainen. He just has red flags for me

 

[MBauer]

Not a huge fan of Risto, if used properly could be a solid 2nd pairing guy.

Definitely don't think moving a player who's had the best possession metrics on our team for the past 3 seasons is a good idea, especially considering how awful we already are in that regard.

Something around AA though, I think that would be something to consider.

 

[Frk It]

Custance put out an interesting article where he looked at everyone who has gone to arbitration over the last 10 years. There were 27 cases, and within there years 21 out of 27 were traded.

If Stevie has the feeling Mantha or AA are going that route; would not be surprised at all if he pre-emptively moves them.

We should have cap space next summer, maybe he will wait and see, will be interesting to see how he handles it. Especially after the whole Drouin thing.

 

[The Zermanator]

Custance put out an interesting article where he looked at everyone who has gone to arbitration over the last 10 years. There were 27 cases, and within there years 21 out of 27 were traded.

If Stevie has the feeling Mantha or AA are going that route; would not be surprised at all if he pre-emptively moves them.

We should have cap space next summer, maybe he will wait and see, will be interesting to see how he handles it. Especially after the whole Drouin thing.

Yeah I see Mantha re-signing but I think AA is gone sometime in the next year. Yzerman doesn't mess around with that type of attitude.

 

[Bench]

Yeah I see Mantha re-signing but I think AA is gone sometime in the next year. Yzerman doesn't mess around with that type of attitude.

I also think this is how it shakes out. You don't sign two wingers to long-term deals like that in the middle of the rebuild. One is getting moved for assets to be used on another position or a winger still on a cheaper contract.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I also think this is how it shakes out. You don't sign two wingers to long-term deals like that in the middle of the rebuild. One is getting moved for assets to be used on another position or a winger still on a cheaper contract.

I can see AA being dealt

I would not move Mantha. I truly believe he is going to turn into one if the top end wingers in the game.

Not a dynamic 90pt guy but I can see a few seasons of 40 goals 35 assists

 

[lilidk]

I can see AA being dealt

I would not move Mantha. I truly believe he is going to turn into one if the top end wingers in the game.

Not a dynamic 90pt guy but I can see a few seasons of 40 goals 35 assists

Id say trade Mantha , AA, DD, and Hirose , but only for high pics . AA for first , Hirose second . Mantha Tatar like trade. Give this team 4 more years and we will compete for the cup . Rangers did it just 2 years ago and now they looks like powerhouse or if we think that in last 2 years we got something great that will give us a strong team .

 

[MBH]

Zadina is suppose to be better than Mantha. I'd rather have Risto and Zadina than Zadina and Mantha going forward....

There's logic to this.
It generally takes longer to develop defense than forwards. And that's one of the reasons why the Wings' rebuild looks goofy.
Say the Wings defense (Seider/Cholowski/McIsaac/Hronek) is 7 years away from hitting their peak and being ready to compete. That means Mantha/Athanasiou are 32 and Larkin is 30.
It might be wise to trade Athanasiou or Mantha for a good defenseman of around the same age.
Especially when you consider we have Zadina, Svechnikov, Berggren, Rasmussen and others who can still develop on the wings.
But, were I Yzerman, I'd have to feel real confident in my opinion of those young wingers before I make that trade.
It's crazy to me that the Sabres want to trade Ristolainen. But this is the team that inexplicably gave away O'Reilly for spare parts.

 

[lilidk]

There's logic to this.
It generally takes longer to develop defense than forwards. And that's one of the reasons why the Wings' rebuild looks goofy.
Say the Wings defense (Seider/Cholowski/McIsaac/Hronek) is 7 years away from hitting their peak and being ready to compete. That means Mantha/Athanasiou are 32 and Larkin is 30.
It might be wise to trade Athanasiou or Mantha for a good defenseman of around the same age.
Especially when you consider we have Zadina, Svechnikov, Berggren, Rasmussen and others who can still develop on the wings.
But, were I Yzerman, I'd have to feel real confident in my opinion of those young wingers before I make that trade.
It's crazy to me that the Sabres want to trade Ristolainen. But this is the team that inexplicably gave away O'Reilly for spare parts.

We should get someone like Dustin Byfuglien or Shea Weber for those kids to be a mentor. They are big , just what we try to draft this year .

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

There's logic to this.
It generally takes longer to develop defense than forwards. And that's one of the reasons why the Wings' rebuild looks goofy.
Say the Wings defense (Seider/Cholowski/McIsaac/Hronek) is 7 years away from hitting their peak and being ready to compete. That means Mantha/Athanasiou are 32 and Larkin is 30.
It might be wise to trade Athanasiou or Mantha for a good defenseman of around the same age.
Especially when you consider we have Zadina, Svechnikov, Berggren, Rasmussen and others who can still develop on the wings.
But, were I Yzerman, I'd have to feel real confident in my opinion of those young wingers before I make that trade.
It's crazy to me that the Sabres want to trade Ristolainen. But this is the team that inexplicably gave away O'Reilly for spare parts.

The problem with Ristolainen is that he'd have the same problem with usage, as he does with Buffalo.

He's over his head playing those minutes. And buffalo has a much better defense.