Value of: Ristolainen to Toronto.

[mydnyte]

Risto plays the hardest minutes on the Sabres, and would be the perfect partner for Reilly. If the Leafs are getting out of cap hell, there’s a Marner for Risto trade that saves huge cap space, and keeps the team’s competitive depth.
On the surface it’s not a fair trade, but cap space has huge value now, especially to capped teams who are in compete now mode.

if the leafs are talking Marner to Buffalo, the only targets they would consider would be Eichel/Dahlin (which Buffalo should decline, unless Eichel has really burned too many bridges there, but, would still be stupid for them to deal him)

 

[jputt99]

Since Botts was fired , Krueger will figure more into all personnel decisions . I think trading Risto is no longer a given . I actually believe Montour is more likely to be traded . In either case , I don't think Buffalo and Toronto will be trade partners .

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Since Botts was fired , Krueger will figure more into all personnel decisions . I think trading Risto is no longer a given . I actually believe Montour is more likely to be traded . In either case , I don't think Buffalo and Toronto will be trade partners .

Why? because they are in the same division? I don't think that matters, it might be different if both teams were competitive but Buffalo is still rebuilding IF they trade Risto then you need to take the best deal it doesn't matter where it comes from

 

[Jerkbait]

if the leafs are talking Marner to Buffalo, the only targets they would consider would be Eichel/Dahlin (which Buffalo should decline, unless Eichel has really burned too many bridges there, but, would still be stupid for them to deal him)

Marner is better than Eichel at this time

 

[Fjordy]

Marner is better than Eichel at this time

nope

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

nope

He absolutely is

 

[mydnyte]

Marner is better than Eichel at this time

as a Leafs fan, I'd take Eichel every day over Marner.
Marner may outpoint Eichel, but, Eichel is an elite goal scoring C, and a franchise player in his own right

 

[joe dirte]

Risto plays the hardest minutes on the Sabres, and would be the perfect partner for Reilly. If the Leafs are getting out of cap hell, there’s a Marner for Risto trade that saves huge cap space, and keeps the team’s competitive depth.
On the surface it’s not a fair trade, but cap space has huge value now, especially to capped teams who are in compete now mode.

WTF? Marner for Ristolainen? Not a chance in hell. Unless they want to add in 4 first round picks, that's a hard no.

 

[joe dirte]

Marner is better than Eichel at this time

Marner is a hell of a player, but no, not better than Eichel. that said, adding Eichel when you have Matthews and Tavares would be silly, Marner is a better fit for the Leafs.

 

[Fjordy]

He absolutely is

nope

 

[Habs Halifax]

Marner is better than Eichel at this time

No way. Eichel produces with less talent around him. Marner is good but not that good.

 

[Habs Halifax]

as a Leafs fan, I'd take Eichel every day over Marner.
Marner may outpoint Eichel, but, Eichel is an elite goal scoring C, and a franchise player in his own right

Eichel might be a better center than Matthews to be honest. Matthews is a goal scoring center and has more goals than assists... that's rare for a center! Very Rare!

 

[ACC1224]

as a Leafs fan, I'd take Eichel every day over Marner.
Marner may outpoint Eichel, but, Eichel is an elite goal scoring C, and a franchise player in his own right

They are pretty close both Franchise players.
Marner is a better fit for the Leafs though.

 

[Fatass]

WTF? Marner for Ristolainen? Not a chance in hell. Unless they want to add in 4 first round picks, that's a hard no.

It was a conceptual idea to reduce cap. Clearly the idea and the players involved didn’t match.

 

[joe dirte]

It was a conceptual idea to reduce cap. Clearly the idea and the players involved didn’t match.

fair enough

 

[biotk]

I wouldn’t consider Sandin, Liljegren or Dermott as PP people. If Dubas did too, he wouldn’t have acquired Barrie. Because it sure as hell wasn’t acquired for his other 18 minute D game.

It was for the other 18 minutes a game. Barrie was not Dubas' first choice, but the Leafs' had Rielly for PP1, and the team viewed their biggest deficiency in their two playoffs against the Bruins as their lack of puck moving and zone exits on the right side - something Boston clearly planned around and took advantage of. Barrie, while not great defensively was a force in Colorado at ES and 5v5 playing with the high powered offense there. It didn't work out in Toronto - most would say because Babcock decided he was going to turn Barrie into a completely different kind of defenseman, but I would say that another major factor was that Toronto had no D partner to put him with who covered his weaknesses which Colorado had always done and which showed that Barrie was much worse defensively than it appeared in Colorado.

As for the other part of your statement - Sandin will certainly be a staple of the PP at some point in time over the next couple seasons. That has nothing to do with the acquisition of Barrie which was for 1 year. Dubas had already said before Barrie was traded for that Sandin (and Liljegren) were not going to be on the roster in 2019/20 and Sandin, a small 29OA D, only turned 20 just before the Leafs' last game this season.

 

[biotk]

Exactly you don't take away from your core when you are in win now mode

I think that their success or failure in this coming playoffs will show management whether or not the team can be considered a competitor with this core and actually be considered to be in "win now" mode going forward.

The team didn't add at the trade deadline - which is common for teams in win now mode. The team had been expecting the cap to be up around 95M by the end of Matthews' contract. 81.5M is completely devastating for filling out their roster - especially one with as many holes as Toronto has.

When I try to put together rosters for 2022/23 for the Leafs' while keeping their core together it is extremely difficult. Essentially you either have to hope that upcoming players like Sandin are worse than advertised or you lose them.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I think that their success or failure in this coming playoffs will show management whether or not the team can be considered a competitor with this core and actually be considered to be in "win now" mode going forward.

The team didn't add at the trade deadline - which is common for teams in win now mode. The team had been expecting the cap to be up around 95M by the end of Matthews' contract. 81.5M is completely devastating for filling out their roster - especially one with as many holes as Toronto has.

When I try to put together rosters for 2022/23 for the Leafs' while keeping their core together it is extremely difficult. Essentially you either have to hope that upcoming players like Sandin are worse than advertised or you lose them.

This is a strange year, there is fairly decent chance the playoffs don't finish I'm not sure how much stock you can put into this year

 

[biotk]

It was a conceptual idea to reduce cap. Clearly the idea and the players involved didn’t match.

I don't think that Marner for Risto (plusses) works on a couple levels. While I think that Eichel and Marner would amazing together, and RW has been the Sabres biggest weakness. Buffalo already has Eichel at 10 and Skinner at 9. If you add in Marner that is 3 forwards combining for 30M and puts them in a position similar to the Leafs with Tavares, Matthews and Marner making around 33.5M. Then you add in that Dahlin will get a big contract in a year while they also have Okposo at 6 and Reinhart reportedly wants a very big deal (and then, of course, there is still Olofsson).

I do think that if they Leafs' have a poor showing in this playoffs their is a decent chance that their management will decide that they can't win with 4 forwards taking up half their cap for the next 4+ years. At least for me, Marner makes the most sense to trade. There are only a handful of teams who I think would make sense as trading partners. I think that the return would be smaller than most Leafs' fans have always expected. Probably a good (but not elite) RHD who can play with Rielly (or carry the second pair), a roster player or prospect who is close (probably a C with size who can either play in the 3C now or is projected to do so in the future) and two draft picks - perhaps as high as two first round picks depending on the quality of the other two players.

 

[biotk]

This is a strange year, there is fairly decent chance the playoffs don't finish I'm not sure how much stock you can put into this year

My view is that this playoffs is their last shot to convince management that this core can be competitive (the default position for management should be that this core is not right mix to take the team all the way after what it has seen over the last couple years and the long-term cap situation).

3 consecutive first round exits.
A fall in points percentage from 0.640 in 2017/18 to 0.610 in 2018/19 to 0.579 in 2019/2020.
Tied for 8th in their conference this year. (How many people thought that they would be a bubble team in 2020 after signing Tavares in 2018?)
A coaching change.
Uninspired hockey half the time.
Dubas did not add at the deadline, saying that this was up to the team - a pretty good indicator that he is warning about significant changes if they can't get their stuff together.
A cap that is not going up, and holes that have not been filled.

The other issue is - with a flat cap for several years going forward, it becomes more and more difficult to trade a player like Marner each year as more and more will push closer to the cap and fewer and fewer teams will have room.

I have said elsewhere that management may feel that keeping all 4 is such a revenue cash cow that winning is secondary.

 

[Djp]

Ivesaid this numerous time before...

Toronto needs to trade Zmsrner or Nylsnder for defense.

General cap rule you should follow..

4/7 for F, 3/7 for D/G

Or if you say you look st top 10 F top 5 D snd and 1G as taking up cap-$7M with a roughly 60/40 split.

In either case if you have a few low cost/ELC players the next 2-3 yrs you can take higher cap hits and exceed these splits in the short term.

Toronto has 4 F under contract for 5+ yrs totaling near $40M which is near 50% of thecap snd it’s all on F. That’s the problem.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

My view is that this playoffs is their last shot to convince management that this core can be competitive (the default position for management should be that this core is not right mix to take the team all the way after what it has seen over the last couple years and the long-term cap situation).

3 consecutive first round exits.
A fall in points percentage from 0.640 in 2017/18 to 0.610 in 2018/19 to 0.579 in 2019/2020.
Tied for 8th in their conference this year. (How many people thought that they would be a bubble team in 2020 after signing Tavares in 2018?)
A coaching change.
Uninspired hockey half the time.
Dubas did not add at the deadline, saying that this was up to the team - a pretty good indicator that he is warning about significant changes if they can't get their stuff together.
A cap that is not going up, and holes that have not been filled.

Alright let's say they beat Columbus but the playoffs are called before the round of 16, what then? You say this is their shot but what if they don't get that shot?

You have to acknowledge that's a possibility

 

[4thline]

General cap rule you should follow..

4/7 for F, 3/7 for D/G

I don't think a single one of the top 14 teams in the league this season followed that "rule"

3/7 * 81.5 = 34.9

 

[biotk]

Alright let's say they beat Columbus but the playoffs are called before the round of 16, what then? You say this is their shot but what if they don't get that shot?

You have to acknowledge that's a possibility

My default position is that management should not have confidence that this core in its current formation can win. If they don't get that final chance to prove that they can then they have missed their chance and should have taken advantage of previous opportunities. The team stunk, failed to show up, and fell apart during many games under Keefe.

The product on the ice has shown that even with the four playing well they can't put a good enough team around them because of cap issues.

Those cap issues are only going to get worse, and the increase in league minimum salary and the bump in the top-elc pay will also put additional stress on the teams' plan of getting by through signing league min players and finding overseas "free wallet" ELCs.

What we have is 3 young players who despite having won nothing fought for every penny they could get knowing that they were leaving the team in a bind. They couldn't even get a proper backup this season this season until injuries to Johnsson and Mikheyev created room because Marner was hell-bent on sucking every last speck of blood out the team. Along with signing Tavares, those contracts only worked if the cap went up significantly. Certainly management knows that.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

My default position is that management should not have confidence that this core in its current formation can win. If they don't get that final chance to prove that they can then they have missed their chance and should have taken advantage of previous opportunities. The team stunk, failed to show up, and fell apart during many games under Keefe.

The product on the ice has shown that even with the four playing well they can't put a good enough team around them because of cap issues.

Those cap issues are only going to get worse, and the increase in league minimum salary and the bump in the top-elc pay will also put additional stress on the teams' plan of getting by through signing league min players and finding overseas "free wallet" ELCs.

What we have is 3 young players who despite having won nothing fought for every penny they could get knowing that they were leaving the team in a bind. They couldn't even get a proper backup this season this season until injuries to Johnsson and Mikheyev created room because Marner was hell-bent on sucking every last speck of blood out the team. Along with signing Tavares, those contracts only worked if the cap went up significantly. Certainly management knows that.

I think they need to be given a fair chance and I don't think they have gotten it, be it because Dubas allowed the backup goaltending to piss away countless points for 17 months before FINALLY getting off his ass and getting Jack Campbell, or Nazem Kadri choosing to be and getting suspended not once but twice arguably costing them the 2018 series and ABSOLUTELY costing them the 2019 series.

I want to see what happens when they have a backup that can actually play and they don't have idiots running around getting themselves suspended.

I think this deserves an opportunity and if they don't get it I don't think they can be judged