Regarding Mark Messier

[The Panther]

Laziest, most selfish, most pathetic effort by any player ever to wear the uniform.

This statement simply isn't feasible when you consider his age, the high number of points he put up, and the fact that he was voted team MVP by Canucks' fans.

 

[MS]

This statement simply isn't feasible when you consider his age, the high number of points he put up, and the fact that he was voted team MVP by Canucks' fans.

He was still great on the PP. His effort level was absolutely embarrassing at ES. I have never seen worse from any player wearing a Canuck jersey. I wish I would have had an iPhone in 1998 to video wide-angle shots of him gliding back 40 feet behind the play while pucks were flying into Canuck nets, shift after shift. It was beyond belief.

And again : I respect you as a poster and what you have to contribute here. But Oiler/Ranger fans who saw Messier at a different time and feel compelled to tell Canuck fans what happened in our city despite not knowing shit about it are beyond insufferable. There is a damned good reason he is hated pretty much unanimously amongst Canuck fans.

 

[quoipourquoi]

There is a damned good reason he is hated pretty much unanimously amongst Canuck fans.

Except for the ones who voted him Team MVP in 1999-00, I guess...

 

[The Panther]

He was still great on the PP. His effort level was absolutely embarrassing at ES. I have never seen worse from any player wearing a Canuck jersey. I wish I would have had an iPhone in 1998 to video wide-angle shots of him gliding back 40 feet behind the play while pucks were flying into Canuck nets, shift after shift. It was beyond belief.

I'm well aware that he was not good in Van, and don't need you to tell me. What I'm taking issue with is "never seen worse from any player wearing a Canuck jersey". Really?

And again : I respect you as a poster and what you have to contribute here. But Oiler/Ranger fans who saw Messier at a different time and feel compelled to tell Canuck fans what happened in our city despite not knowing **** about it are beyond insufferable.

I consider myself a Vancouver-ite by the way, having lived there on and off for a decade. Is it my city too?

You can think whatever you want. I'm merely asking for a bit of objectivity, which requires going beyond your no-doubt emotional reaction to the decline of the Canucks' before and during Messier's time.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

I find it hard to believe that Messier only won one Smythe award in his career. He should have won it in 1990 and 1994: Here are numbers from those years:

1990: 22 GP, 9 G, 22 A 31 Pts Winner: Bill Ranford
1994: 23 GP, 12 G 18 A 30 Pts Winner: Brian Leetch

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

I mean...Brian Leetch had 11G 23A 34P that same postseason run so I don't see how you can make a case for Messier over him.

 

[The Panther]

I find it hard to believe that Messier only won one Smythe award in his career. He should have won it in 1990 and 1994: Here are numbers from those years:

1990: 22 GP, 9 G, 22 A 31 Pts Winner: Bill Ranford
1994: 23 GP, 12 G 18 A 30 Pts Winner: Brian Leetch

In 1990, the Oilers were a very balanced team once they sorted out Winnipeg. Disregarding Ranford, I would say these were the best players in each series:
vs. Winnipeg = the Kurri / Tikkanen / Lamb line was best, so we'll give it to Kurri for most points
vs. Los Angeles = the Simpson / Messier / Anderson line was best, but I'd probably give it to Simpson who was lights out (Messier was great, too)
vs. Chicago = Messier was best here, and single-handedly won game four, which turned it in Edmonton's favor
vs. Boston = probably Simpson again, with a dash of Kurri and Anderson

So, I don't really see Messier as a Conn Smythe winner in 1990. He was superb as usual, but Ranford really deserved it, and for skaters, maybe Craig Simpson deserved it as much as Messier.

The '94 Oiler-Rangers I didn't see as consistently, but from what I remember Brian Leetch really deserved it. (Leetch was by far the Rangers' top scorer in rounds 1, 2, and 4 collectively, though Messier was the best against New Jersey in round three.)

 

[sr edler]

I mean...Brian Leetch had 11G 23A 34P that same postseason run so I don't see how you can make a case for Messier over him.

Yeah, and Rangers missed the playoffs in 1993 – in between two Presidents' Trophies – mainly because Leetch missed over half the season. He was easily the best and most important player on that team. Probably should have won the 1992 Hart Trophy too.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I find it hard to believe that Messier only won one Smythe award in his career. He should have won it in 1990 and 1994: Here are numbers from those years:

1990: 22 GP, 9 G, 22 A 31 Pts Winner: Bill Ranford
1994: 23 GP, 12 G 18 A 30 Pts Winner: Brian Leetch

He was almost certainly the Conn Smythe favorite going into the 1988, 1990, and 1994 Finals. I wouldn’t say that 15 points in 17 games across those three Finals is indicative of an overall decline in performance in pressure situations, but it does make it harder to vote for him for that specific trophy which tends to be slanted towards the final series. It wouldn’t be the 2003 or 2010 Conn Smythe, but maybe a similar vibe because those Messier runs lacked the exclamation mark that Gretzky, Ranford, and Leetch provided.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Messier is reviled in Vancouver with damned good reason. Laziest, most selfish, most pathetic effort by any player ever to wear the uniform. If you weren't sitting in the building watching him lollygag as the last man back 40 feet behind the play *on every freaking shift*, you don't understand. If you didn't have to listen to this arrogant piece of crap and his oversized ego give nauseating self-absorbed interviews every night, you don't understand. If you didn't see him trying to play GM, sitting at centre court at NBA games with the team owner, orchestrate the trade of teammates and travel separately from the rest of the club on road trips, you don't understand.

It isn't about Linden. It isn't about Wayne Maki. It's about Mark Messier and what a complete arrogant *****ebag he was off the ice while putting in the most minimal effort on the ice and stealing $18 million from the team's ticket-buying public.

Couldn’t agree more. If we had got big bad Messier... leadership award Messier... I wouldn’t have cared if he kicked Linden in the nuts in the middle of Granville Street (okay, I would have been a bit conflicted).

What we got was a floater. I don’t care that he led the team in scoring. Craig Janney could have done that... while being just as intimidating.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Couldn’t agree more. If we had got big bad Messier... leadership award Messier... I wouldn’t have cared if he kicked Linden in the nuts in the middle of Granville Street (okay, I would have been a bit conflicted).

What we got was a floater. I don’t care that he led the team in scoring. Craig Janney could have done that... while being just as intimidating.

how dare you? craig janney helped us get to the finals.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

I mean...Brian Leetch had 11G 23A 34P that same postseason run so I don't see how you can make a case for Messier over him.

After reviewing the stats for each series, I can't make a case for Messier over Leetch. When I posted the stats for Leetch and Messier, I should have dug deeper into the numbers. Leetch did lead the Rangers in scoring in three out of the four playoff rounds, with Messier leading in the New Jersey series. Leetch was a deserving winner.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

Yeah, and Rangers missed the playoffs in 1993 – in between two Presidents' Trophies – mainly because Leetch missed over half the season. He was easily the best and most important player on that team. Probably should have won the 1992 Hart Trophy too.

Somehow I forgot Leetch missed the majority of the 1992-93 season. Memory is not what it once was. Not a coincidence the Rangers didn't qualify for the playoffs.

 

[New Jersey]

came here as a hater to pay due respects to brian leetch. i'm good.

 

[MyDogSparty]

This incident didn’t sit well with fans...

Messier had a tendency to go after players below of his own weight class. It was pretty rare for him to take on players of his own ilk and when he did I don’t think he faired too well.

People like to compare Messier to Howe but there are some major differences between the two, the above being one of them. I never heard that Howe shied away from anyone. Another difference between the two is that Howe, despite playing a physical style, had a certain charm and sincerity about him. He was a likeable guy and not just by his teammates. Also, Howe had a great sense of humor and was extremely humble. He didn’t need the “C” on his sweater to have respect. Messier’s ego was rather large compared to Howe’s.

I think the comparisons between Messier & Clarke are much more accurate, although IMO Clark’s ego pales in comparison to Messier’s.

 

[The Panther]

It was pretty rare for him to take on players of his own ilk...

Quick -- name the 100-point scoring Hart winners who fought McSorley multiple times! (I mean besides Messier.)

...and when he did I don’t think he faired too well.

Who cares?

 

[MyDogSparty]

Quick -- name the 100-point scoring Hart winners who fought McSorley multiple times! (I mean besides Messier.)

That doesn’t make it his tendency.

Who cares?

What you’re asking me to do doesn’t change my answer to the OP’s question as to why some fans dislike Messier. He was a tough player but he had a tendency to act tougher and talk tougher only when referees had a hold of his or other player’s jerseys to prevent a fight especially when the person he was jawing with was just as tough and willing to settle things with their fists. Once the refs were between him and his opponent, that’s when he’d drop his stick and gloves, puff up his chest, get loud and look willing to fight. It was the same with Bobby Clarke which is why fans considered him a coward. Not so with Howe.

In most scrums he seemed to avoid confrontation with players of his own size and demeanor. I’d always expect him to pick on players in his own weight class yet he seemed to go out of his way to grab someone smaller. If someone bigger grabbed him he’d wait for the refs. Once they were in place he acted with the bravado of a heavy weight champ. I don’t remember Howe ever doing that. Hence it’s more appropriate to compare him to Clarke IMO.

 

[The Panther]

That doesn’t make it his tendency.




What you’re asking me to do doesn’t change my answer to the OP’s question as to why some fans dislike Messier. He was a tough player but he had a tendency to act tougher and talk tougher only when referees had a hold of his or other player’s jerseys to prevent a fight especially when the person he was jawing with was just as tough and willing to settle things with their fists. Once the refs were between him and his opponent, that’s when he’d drop his stick and gloves, puff up his chest, get loud and look willing to fight. It was the same with Bobby Clarke which is why fans considered him a coward. Not so with Howe.

In most scrums he seemed to avoid confrontation with players of his own size and demeanor. I’d always expect him to pick on players in his own weight class yet he seemed to go out of his way to grab someone smaller. If someone bigger grabbed him he’d wait for the refs. Once they were in place he acted with the bravado of a heavy weight champ. I don’t remember Howe ever doing that. Hence it’s more appropriate to compare him to Clarke IMO.

My "who cares" meant 'Who cares if he won the fight or not'?

Oilers' teammates were inspired to see Messier taking on McSorley, Peplinski, Roberts on occasion as necessary. Whether he 'won' or not is irrelevant.

 

[The Pale King]

My "who cares" meant 'Who cares if he won the fight or not'?

Oilers' teammates were inspired to see Messier taking on McSorley, Peplinski, Roberts on occasion as necessary. Whether he 'won' or not is irrelevant.

I think that's interesting compared with Robinson's role on the Canadiens. Larry couldn't afford to lose, he had to make sure he won (particularly against Philadelphia and Dave Schultz). Interesting that Edmonton's ego (or whatever you want to call it) was so much less tied to Messier's success or lack-thereof vs heavy-weights compared with Robinson. Isn't Robinson's brand of quiet but very assured confidence more effective, arguably?

Also, this article on the mid-80s Oilers mentions what a crazy situation that team had going off the ice. Different era, for sure, but still surprising how public-record some of this stuff was: The Joyless End Of A Joyride

 

[The Pale King]

How did Messier react to the Steve Smith incident? I know Gretz seemed genuinely forgiving, right out of the gates, placing the blame on himself and others for not stepping up.

He was pretty absent in that series but I have to think he would have been less forgiving. . .

 

[The Panther]

Also, this article on the mid-80s Oilers mentions what a crazy situation that team had going off the ice. Different era, for sure, but still surprising how public-record some of this stuff was: The Joyless End Of A Joyride

Good grief, that article...! It was largely discredited in 1986, and it must be an embarrassment to Sports Illustrated now.

The one and only substantiated quote from it was this: "We've had information passed on to us," says staff sergeant Hal Johnson, head of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police's Edmonton drug squad. "We do not have evidence to lay charges, but we have information that there are users on the club."

So, there you go! The RCMP (assuming this wasn't a mis-quote) was passed on "information" by anonymous persons that one or more Oilers had used drugs. And from this, Sports Illustrated constructed a ridiculous article to explain why the Oilers didn't play well for 12 days in April, 1986.

 

[The Panther]

How did Messier react to the Steve Smith incident? I know Gretz seemed genuinely forgiving, right out of the gates, placing the blame on himself and others for not stepping up.

He was pretty absent in that series but I have to think he would have been less forgiving. . .

Why in the world would you "have to think" that?

Messier was universally admired as a consistent and supportive teammate in Edmonton.

 

[The Pale King]

Why in the world would you "have to think" that?

Messier was universally admired as a consistent and supportive teammate in Edmonton.

Yeah, maybe that's not entirely fair to Messier. I am wondering what his reaction was to it, regardless.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Only thing bad about him was those damn Lays Chips he kept eating...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

not sure why anyone but their moms cares one way or the other about how many rails messier and co did in the 80s. personally, i care about as much as i do about how many reporters’ pubic hair they shaved off.