Regarding Mark Messier

Teamplaya

Registered User
Aug 9, 2013
204
30
Pasadena, CA
Hey everyone, I realize I might be kicking a hornets nest/asking a really silly question, but what exactly are the specifics of the dislike for Mark Messier? I vaguely recall him being kind of a browbeater as a leader, and he's struck me as pretty terse/uppity in interviews, but if I'm talking out of my butt please correct me. It seems to me that him and Paul Coffey are interesting cases of successful Oilers with some lingering issues.
 

mike14

Rampage Sherpa
Jun 22, 2006
17,685
10,632
Melbourne
I think it depends on your age and who you ask but:

- he played dirty, like really dirty. Cheap-shots, elbows, etc. It didn't matter who it was against, or in what situation, he was a predator, and that continued right up to the end. Him choking Blake (I think) from the Isles in one of his last few seasons is an example of the 'hardman' routine he displayed on the ice even at the very end

- his time in Vancouver. Ruffled a lot of feathers demanding a number that had unofficially been retired by the team. The team sucked the three seasons he was there and made the playoffs the season after he left. There are appeared to be some disunity in the locker-room because of him and him being made captain. He only played one full season because oof injuries and his point totals in his full season where well down on what he'd done with the Rangers. He was top 3 in scoring each season he was there. IMO Nucks fans reactions to Messier are overblown (some of it justified) and he's become a scapegoat for all the wrongs of an organization during that time

- he hung around too long. If you came of age in hockey anytime from the mid-90s onward Messier received a lot of press and attention, but did nothing to deserve it. He was a 60 point player at best who didn't win anything and didn't make a difference to the team he went to (van and back to NYR) even though there was lots of talk and press about the moves

- He's synonymous with 'leadership' - Like the above, from the mid 90s on-wards, with 2 franchises he was the captain who didn't even make the playoffs but was still lauded as the best example of leadership in hockey. Post lockout the NHL creates the 'Messier Leadership Award' which doesn't seem to mean anything, but is named after someone who current fans can't remember ever showing leadership or winning so he's become 'overrated' for those who don't want to dig back through older footage.
 

Nerowoy nora tolad

Registered User
May 9, 2018
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Gladstone, Australia
Good player who was probably better than he is remembered now. He gets savaged nowadays because alongside his easily measured contributions in terms of goals and points, a lot of his value was reflected in things that are difficult to impossible to measure, namely defensive ability, leadership, and intimidation.
 

Nerowoy nora tolad

Registered User
May 9, 2018
1,403
652
Gladstone, Australia
- he played dirty, like really dirty. Cheap-shots, elbows, etc. It didn't matter who it was against, or in what situation, he was a predator, and that continued right up to the end. Him choking Blake (I think) from the Isles in one of his last few seasons is an example of the 'hardman' routine he displayed on the ice even at the very end

He choked Blake? WTF was he a psycho?
 

mike14

Rampage Sherpa
Jun 22, 2006
17,685
10,632
Melbourne
He choked Blake? WTF was he a psycho?

(minor) line brawl where everyone paired off. Messier grabbed Blake by his jersey at the front of the collar and was basically squeezing/twisting the jersey with the one hand, constricting around Blake's neck. You could see Blake starting to go purple in the face.

I wouldn't say Mess was a psycho, but he was a bit of animal on the ice
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,114
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Tokyo, Japan
Some slight errors in this post, I think:
- he played dirty, like really dirty.
Yeah, he played dirty, but not that dirty! You're making him sound like Matt Cooke combined with Bryan Marchment. I would say he was a lot cleaner than players like Gordie Howe or Chris Chelios. There were a lot of elbows and 'wild-man' kind of posturing in his early years, but this was toned down, as it is with most players, after about 1984.
- his time in Vancouver. Ruffled a lot of feathers demanding a number that had unofficially been retired by the team.
Again, exaggeration. You make it sound like the team said, "Mess, that number is unofficially retired", and Messier said, "Give it to me anyway!" In reality, that didn't happen. It was always part of Messier's contract, whoever he signed with, that he'd want to keep his number 11. He happened to sign with Vancouver. The Canucks didn't tell him about the Maki think, and he probably didn't know until he got to Van and the press started asking him. He did later contact the Maki family, who clarified that they didn't mind him wearing it at all, but that they wished they'd been asked first (which wasn't his job to do).
The team sucked the three seasons he was there...
You forgot they sucked the year before he got there, missing the playoffs. In the Van media at the time, there was talk of a divided locker-room. All before Messier.
...and made the playoffs the season after he left.
You overlooked the team's enormous improvement in Messier's third year, when they almost finished .500 and Mess was voted by the Vancouver fans as team MVP.
If you came of age in hockey anytime from the mid-90s onward Messier received a lot of press and attention, but did nothing to deserve it.
He was 2nd in Hart voting in 1996. Matched Gretzky in scoring in 1997. Was 2nd in scoring on the Canucks his first two seasons, and 1st in PPG his third (aged 39). 2nd on the Rangers at age 43. Of course, he was never himself after 1997, and maybe he did stick around too long, but it's not like he was a passenger on any of those teams. I don't see extending your career by being a 2nd-line guy as a reason to dislike a player.
- He's synonymous with 'leadership' - Like the above, from the mid 90s on-wards, with 2 franchises he was the captain who didn't even make the playoffs but was still lauded as the best example of leadership in hockey. Post lockout the NHL creates the 'Messier Leadership Award' which doesn't seem to mean anything, but is named after someone who current fans can't remember ever showing leadership or winning so he's become 'overrated' for those who don't want to dig back through older footage.
Again, like the Maki thing, this has nothing to do with Messier. It's not like Messier made the Leadership Award and named it after himself!


Messier, just like Gordie Howe, had a tremendous love for the game, great respect for all his opponents... and was a mean SOB at times.

The one fanbase who might have a legit reason to dislike Messier would be Calgary's... yet, I've never heard Calgary fans talking him down. They know a winner when they see it.
 

Captain Bowie

Registered User
Jan 18, 2012
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Oh look, the completely impartial The Panther is here to tell Canucks fans are wrong for hating Mark Messier, and that he was in fact a hero and a savior of the franchise.
 
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The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
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Oh look, the completely impartial The Panther is here to tell Canucks fans are wrong for hating Mark Messier, and that he was in fact a hero and a savior of the franchise.
Yeah, fail.

As I've said countless times, Messier's time in Vancouver was a disaster (I predicted that the day he signed with them), and he was not a great player for them.

As I've also said countless times, Vancouver fans' blaming Messier for all their problems during 1997-2000 is an embarrassing reflection on that fanbase.
 
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Captain Bowie

Registered User
Jan 18, 2012
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Yeah, fail.

As I've said countless times, Messier's time in Vancouver was a disaster (I predicted that the day he signed with them), and he was not a great player for them.

As I've also said countless times, Vancouver fans' blaming Messier for all their problems during 1997-2000 is an embarrassing reflection on that fanbase.
You've also said countless times that Canucks fans feelings towards a player that you agree was a disaster for them are flat out wrong. We don't need to see this movie again. It's a bit repetitive.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,114
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Tokyo, Japan
You've also said countless times that Canucks fans feelings towards a player that you agree was a disaster for them are flat out wrong.
I didn't say that "(Messier) was a disaster for them." I said that Messier's time in Vancouver was a disaster. It would also have been a disaster had Messier not been there.
We don't need to see this movie again. It's a bit repetitive.
As opposed to Canucks' fan dominating every Messier-related discussion to ignore the first 18 years of his career to crap over his senior-citizen seasons, as a lightning rod for failures of their franchise.
 

mike14

Rampage Sherpa
Jun 22, 2006
17,685
10,632
Melbourne
Some slight errors in this post, I think:

Yeah, he played dirty, but not that dirty! You're making him sound like Matt Cooke combined with Bryan Marchment. I would say he was a lot cleaner than players like Gordie Howe or Chris Chelios. There were a lot of elbows and 'wild-man' kind of posturing in his early years, but this was toned down, as it is with most players, after about 1984.

Again, exaggeration. You make it sound like the team said, "Mess, that number is unofficially retired", and Messier said, "Give it to me anyway!" In reality, that didn't happen. It was always part of Messier's contract, whoever he signed with, that he'd want to keep his number 11. He happened to sign with Vancouver. The Canucks didn't tell him about the Maki think, and he probably didn't know until he got to Van and the press started asking him. He did later contact the Maki family, who clarified that they didn't mind him wearing it at all, but that they wished they'd been asked first (which wasn't his job to do).

You forgot they sucked the year before he got there, missing the playoffs. In the Van media at the time, there was talk of a divided locker-room. All before Messier.

You overlooked the team's enormous improvement in Messier's third year, when they almost finished .500 and Mess was voted by the Vancouver fans as team MVP.

He was 2nd in Hart voting in 1996. Matched Gretzky in scoring in 1997. Was 2nd in scoring on the Canucks his first two seasons, and 1st in PPG his third (aged 39). 2nd on the Rangers at age 43. Of course, he was never himself after 1997, and maybe he did stick around too long, but it's not like he was a passenger on any of those teams. I don't see extending your career by being a 2nd-line guy as a reason to dislike a player.

Again, like the Maki thing, this has nothing to do with Messier. It's not like Messier made the Leadership Award and named it after himself!


Messier, just like Gordie Howe, had a tremendous love for the game, great respect for all his opponents... and was a mean SOB at times.

The one fanbase who might have a legit reason to dislike Messier would be Calgary's... yet, I've never heard Calgary fans talking him down. They know a winner when they see it.

Happy for you to say 'different interpretation', but what was an error?

I certainly didn't mean to make Mess sound like Cooke, and I don't think I did... He was a dirty player in an era of dirty players, and it is, I believe, one of the reasons why people don't like him.

I didn't forget that Vancouver sucked pre-Messier or ended up improving win his last year, and I know about the contract, but again these are all things I've seen Nucks fan use to bash Messier (the question asked by the OP).

Of course he didn't name an aware after himself, but it something else that IMO younger fans don't really understand and so build on the 'overrated' story line that is coupled with not making the playoffs post 97.

Mess is my favourite player, and who got me into hockey, but I really don't see what errors I posted. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on why some fans dislike him though.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
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Messier, just like Gordie Howe, had a tremendous love for the game, great respect for all his opponents... and was a mean SOB at times.

Pretty much this. I was in Vancouver when he was here. Organization rather dysfunctional, Mark Messier clearly running on fumes... played a lot of hockey in the preceding years. He was a force, no question about it. To some, favorite player all time, definition of what a Captain should be just as some feel the same way about a Bobby Clarke or any other sometimes controversial player.....

Fun story about Gordie Howe.... related, told by a Dr. John Findley who one night during a game was in the medical room stitching up a cut, being asked to work quickly so he could get back out there, back in the action.... The cut sewn up, good to go, Howe got off the table, thanked the Doctor, put on his gloves & grabbed his stick and... pausing at the door, turned around and said (paraphrasing) "Oh, and Doc? You might want to wait here. The guy who did this to me will be right in".....

And thats just the way she goes, way you played it. Gordies era, Clarkes, Messiers. Not scary Monsters. Not "Bad Men". The gallows humor, self deprecation, trash talk at times, jibes said in humor, tongue planted firmly in cheek, Gordie being thoughtful yes?..... all part of the game, the culture. :)
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,114
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Tokyo, Japan
Happy for you to say 'different interpretation', but what was an error?

I certainly didn't mean to make Mess sound like Cooke, and I don't think I did... He was a dirty player in an era of dirty players, and it is, I believe, one of the reasons why people don't like him.

I didn't forget that Vancouver sucked pre-Messier or ended up improving win his last year, and I know about the contract, but again these are all things I've seen Nucks fan use to bash Messier (the question asked by the OP).

Of course he didn't name an aware after himself, but it something else that IMO younger fans don't really understand and so build on the 'overrated' story line that is coupled with not making the playoffs post 97.

Mess is my favourite player, and who got me into hockey, but I really don't see what errors I posted. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on why some fans dislike him though.
Sorry, I didn't mean to call you out specifically, and I understand that your post was simply pointing out people's interpretation of events.
 
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sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,845
6,290
what exactly are the specifics of the dislike for Mark Messier?

People mostly dislike him for his humble non-ego low key persona. And, they also can’t stand him being so succesful while playing such a clean and gentlemanly game. Much like Mikita he cleaned up his act after a few initial youthful seasons on "the edge side of things", so to speak. When he arrived in New York he was already then a Lady Byng candidate almost every year, didn’t you know?





 
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Talisman

Registered User
Nov 7, 2015
465
57
what is the reason why Messier didn"nt participated in team canada 1998 Nagano OG?. was he injured?. i have read in some post in another hockey sites(rumours) that reason was that he had failed some test.....you know. in gretzky book wayne is also mentioned Messiers absence in nagano.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
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Hockeytown, MI
The Nagano omission is covered pretty extensively in the Team Canada thread we have.

Fun story about Gordie Howe.... related, told by a Dr. John Findley who one night during a game was in the medical room stitching up a cut, being asked to work quickly so he could get back out there, back in the action.... The cut sewn up, good to go, Howe got off the table, thanked the Doctor, put on his gloves & grabbed his stick and... pausing at the door, turned around and said (paraphrasing) "Oh, and Doc? You might want to wait here. The guy who did this to me will be right in".....

Sometimes hockey is just the best.
 

mrhockey193195

Registered User
Nov 14, 2006
6,513
2,005
Denver, CO
what is the reason why Messier didn"nt participated in team canada 1998 Nagano OG?. was he injured?. i have read in some post in another hockey sites(rumours) that reason was that he had failed some test.....you know. in gretzky book wayne is also mentioned Messiers absence in nagano.
The biggest rumor is that Bobby Clarke was running the show and wanted his star from Philly, Lindros, to be the face of the team and the captain. That wouldn't have been possible with Messier there.
 

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