Regarding Mark Messier

[Killion]

The Nagano omission is covered pretty extensively in the Team Canada thread we have.



Sometimes hockey is just the best.

..... yup, indeed it is and another Howe story which as a Goalie I'm sure you'll enjoy.... Back in the 60's, not much of a Christmas Break, teams playing Christmas Eve & so on.... This one recalled by Bryan Bugsy Watson... had a bar down in Alexandria Virginia post career, may still do so....

1965 in a game against the Leafs, Gordie by then losing his hair with an odd Cowlick hanging down that got in his eyes, blinding him at times.... skates in on Toronto Defenseman Kent Douglas, tying him up in knots, beating him twice, nothing between him & his good friend & fishing Buddy Johnny Bower....

... who... totally confused as Howe with one hand on his stick, the other trying to keep the Cowlick out of his eye sails in on him, couldnt get a read at all, proceeds bowl him over & one handedly puts the puck (on the backhand mind you) TOP. SHELF.

Howe, standing there looking at him, big grin... "Merry Christmas Johnny"..... turns, skates towards the bench.... Bower, incensed, angrier than a Hornet chasing him all the way to the Blue Line asking him what the Hell he meant by that, "Huh?!, Huh?!!, HUH?!!! show some respect. Just about killed me you old Bastid" & so on & so on....

So ya, all kinds of stuff that goes on at ice level that the fans really quite unaware of so to be harsh on an edgy guy like Messier, without the full context... well, not really on in my book but sure, I do get the dislike, enmities people, particularly Canucks fans harbored, still harbor towards him.

 

[tony d]

Such a great player. His time in Vancouver was a bit of a dud but other than that he had a great career, one of the better players of all time.

67000th post!

 

[Killion]

Such a great player. His time in Vancouver was a bit of a dud but other than that he had a great career, one of the better players of all time.

67000th post!

Good Lord. So it is, Member since 2007. Congratz!!! Ive only seen a few in that range & higher, some of the kids in the Lounge but generally high totals as a result of abstractions, threads, posts after post after post of streaming consciousness. Monosyllabic or 2-5 word posts, gifs & memes etc....

So ya, for actual "quality hockey content" thats pretty impressive.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Hey everyone, I realize I might be kicking a hornets nest/asking a really silly question, but what exactly are the specifics of the dislike for Mark Messier? I vaguely recall him being kind of a browbeater as a leader, and he's struck me as pretty terse/uppity in interviews, but if I'm talking out of my butt please correct me. It seems to me that him and Paul Coffey are interesting cases of successful Oilers with some lingering issues.

I think he is being unfairly criticized in 2018 by people who don't remember the 80's and early '90's that well or never witnessed him play. He won Hart Trophies on different teams fer cryin' out loud .. and a Conn Smythe. Plus, he was one of the main reasons the Rangers won the Cup in '94 and would have been a worthy choice for another Conn Smythe if it didn't go to Leetch.

Messier was a force in his prime. Dirty - yes. But he was a very, very, very good player.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

There are at least two long threads on this very topic in this HoH forum. But what it boils down to is...

- some people take issue with his often over the borderline play

- some people felt he rarely had to answer for his dirty play

- some Vancouver fans blame him (and Keenan) for a dark stretch of Canucks history

- some people saw a washed up floater who cashed in on his reputation over the course of his last few seasons

- some people feel as though his final few years undermine any reason to name a leadership award after him

- there’s other people who dislike him for other reasons.

There is generally a lot of debate on all of these points and it often degenerates into Oiler and Ranger fans, who have fond memories of Messier vs. Vancouver fans who don’t.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Wrong time, wrong place for Messier.

Canucks fans had been conditioned to expect the captains of their team - Stan Smyl & Trevor Linden - to be humble, soft-spoken & diplomatic off the ice, while doggedly punching above their weight in every game on the ice. Selfless, hardworking, self-sacrificing, do anything for the team types.

Messier had a different leadership style: he was brash, cocksure, arrogant, narcissistic. He was an alpha dog bully, the guy who had to be THE GUY, the harsh disciplinarian general leading the troops into battle. He channeled his anger at his own impotence in 89 into stepping up his game & leading the charge in the best year of his career in 90. And when impotence hit again in 93, he angrily decided to essentially take over his team, fire the coach, bring in a new one, & trade off a bunch of guys he didn't like & stack the team with his friends. He was successful, he won the damn Cup that way, & he did it cheap shotting the most beloved player in the history of the Canucks along the way.

Fast forward three years.

Canucks fans have long memories. We were bringing in the guy who beat us, so there is some pretty heavy psychology going on there. If the big bully had bested us, he's got to be strong enough to keep winning, right? Some fans were not happy from the outset that Messier was coming in because of the humiliation of 94, but others had high expectations, believing Messier's own hype about being the savior of the franchise. Messier swaggered into Vancouver as if it was New York 94. The Big Man was coming in to remake the team in His Image again. No, the Maki sweater situation wasn't his fault, & Linden willingly gave up the C, but the arrogant way Messier handled both situations rubbed people the wrong way.

But as that first season progressed the growing perception in the media & among fans was that Messier was pretty much trying to remake the team around him, doing what he did in New York in 94: cozying up to management, engineering trades, getting the coach fired & bringing in his man Keenan. That season, four popular players were shipped out - Linden, Kirk McLean, Gino Odjick & Dave Babych. It looked like we were blowing up the team for Messier. Trouble is, he didn't have the skills to be the franchise player anymore, he couldn't back up all his swagger with elite play on the ice. 60 points in 82 games - it was the first time since his sophomore year he'd dipped below a point-per-game pace, & it was definitely the worst he'd played since 81.

The perception among fans was that he pushed the wildly popular Linden out, but that he didn't really have the pedigree anymore to be pushing people out & bringing his guys in. Keenan turned out to be a disaster, so that really didn't help Messier's case. His brash leadership style was supposed to clean up the "country club atmosphere" of the team, but his cozy & highly influential relationship with ownership/management/coach was soon seen as perpetuating the problem.

He made an extraordinarily messy team even messier.

 

[Puck Dogg]

- he hung around too long. If you came of age in hockey anytime from the mid-90s onward Messier received a lot of press and attention, but did nothing to deserve it.

Messier is considered as leader and great playoff performer, as well as 3rd all- time scorer but he didn't exactly go out in style. Most notably, he missed playoffs for last seven seasons straight at the end of his career. For the last two seasons he played few short of 80 games and recorded 40 points each.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Messier was dominant for several seasons. Like so many other greats, he decided not to go out on top. Big deal. His resume between the early 80's and mid '90's speaks for itself.

 

[The Panther]

He channeled his anger at his own impotence in 89 into stepping up his game & leading the charge in the best year of his career in 90. And when impotence hit again in 93, he angrily decided to essentially take over his team...

All these years I've been his fan, and I hadn't realized he was suffering erectile dysfunction...!

 

[streitz]

I always disliked Messier and find alot of people overrate him for being 3rd(recently 2nd) all time in scoring and for 'leadership'.

He was a very good player, even better in the playoffs. He was extremely dirty which frankly I don't have much of a problem with. If no one had the balls to take him out then so be it it's not like he was running around with a faceshield and robocop equipment.

Overall though I'd rank him in the 2nd/3rd tier of centers, maybe somewhere in between. On a crap team his entire/most of his career he wouldn't be nearly as revered. Instead he was 2nd fiddle on a dynasty and seemed to grow his game off playing with Gretzky. Then he went to Broadway and was apart of a veteran team that caught lightning.




I disliked him, seemed to have a massive ego on the ice and in person. Since my uncle was a cop in the peg when I was a kid I heard some 'interesting' stories about the 80's oilers which I won't post here for obvious libel reasons.

That being said I would of taken him on the jets in a second.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I always disliked Messier and find alot of people overrate him for being 3rd(recently 2nd) all time in scoring and for 'leadership'.

He was a very good player, even better in the playoffs. He was extremely dirty which frankly I don't have much of a problem with. If no one had the balls to take him out then so be it it's not like he was running around with a faceshield and robocop equipment.

Overall though I'd rank him in the 2nd/3rd tier of centers, maybe somewhere in between. On a crap team his entire/most of his career he wouldn't be nearly as revered. Instead he was 2nd fiddle on a dynasty and seemed to grow his game off playing with Gretzky. Then he went to Broadway and was apart of a veteran team that caught lightning.




I disliked him, seemed to have a massive ego on the ice and in person. Since my uncle was a cop in the peg when I was a kid I heard some 'interesting' stories about the 80's oilers which I won't post here for obvious libel reasons.

That being said I would of taken him on the jets in a second.

These are just hockey forums. Tell us the stories!

 

[rfournier103]

These are just hockey forums. Tell us the stories!

I actually think there are forum rules that prohibit sharing certain kinds of anecdotes and stories without some kind of proof or documentation. I think those rules are in place to prevent people with an axe to grind with a player or team from making things up to discredit or slander said person or team. Nowadays it doesn’t take much for a lie on social media (and this forum IS social media) to spread like wildfire and “become” truth.

But believe me, I want to hear the stories as badly as you do!

 

[streitz]

These are just hockey forums. Tell us the stories!

Can't because it's all word of mouth, no proof and goes against the libel rules here.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I could tell a few myself - eye witness accounts by your's truly. Some things involving married players picking up women, mistresses, etc., may be dicey. Others are not particularly inflammatory (just typical drunken behaviour, chain smoking, etc.)

 

[DannyGallivan]

Can't because it's all word of mouth, no proof and goes against the libel rules here.

Then don't tease!

 

[Killion]

Can't because it's all word of mouth, no proof and goes against the libel rules here.

Correct.Unless you can link it to an article or published & verified account from a book, bio, a book or bio at least referenced, mentioned... Cant be Gossip Mongering .... however, there are quite a few "stories" floating around that have been verified, published accounts verified by witnesses, by those who were there, vetted & so on. Quite a few from the 6 team era & olde Montreal in particular... a hot spot for all kinds of Shenanigans for visiting teams & players, more than a few of the Canadiens themselves. You could go around the League if well enough read, reprobate behaviour, hijinx, crazy ****. Boys will be boys.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Messier was dominant for several seasons. Like so many other greats, he decided not to go out on top. Big deal. His resume between the early 80's and mid '90's speaks for itself.

problem is his final 10 years were 10 years of compiling and pretty meh overall.

thats a lot of dragging down

 

[DannyGallivan]

problem is his final 10 years were 10 years of compiling and pretty meh overall.

thats a lot of dragging down

Two Harts (on two different teams), a Conn Smythe (could have been two), impressive numbers, multiple Stanley Cups are just some of the reasons that he is largely underrated in threads like these.

And since you mention his final 10 seasons, let's take a look at them:
In his last 10 seasons he played 675 regular season games and scored 206 goals and compiled 571 points. This was between the ages of 34 and 43. That's .31 goals per game (or 25 goals in an 80 game season... pretty good for his age group) and .85 points per game (68 points per season... again, pretty good for a guy who played until 43 years old).

Among those seasons, he had a campaign where he scored 47 goals (at age 35) and came in second in Hart voting. At 43 years old, in the middle of the dead puck era, he still scored 18 goals.

So, his final 10 seasons really weren't as bad as some people want to believe.

 

[quoipourquoi]

problem is his final 10 years were 10 years of compiling and pretty meh overall.

thats a lot of dragging down

1996-97, his 19th season as a professional, saw him record the 7th best per-game numbers in the league. The seven years that followed (not ten) came when the money in hockey was at its highest point, obviously providing a motivation for extending one’s career.

If someone’s already 19 seasons and 1552+295 points deep when they begin their compiling phase, does it matter all that much? Most players start compiling in this sense much earlier than Year 20.

I mean, how many players were Hart nominees in their 18th season or beyond? Messier, Howe, Roy, Beliveau, and probably not too many more.

Had Gretzky continued from 1999-00 through 2003-04 with the same downward trajectory shown in 1998-99, would any of that drag down his accomplishments or would he be the same player with millions more dollars?

 

[JackSlater]

I do think that part of it is a correction (or perhaps overreaction) to the fawning praise that Messier received. In many ways he is the ideal player to praise. Absolutely elite player. Played for a Canadian dynasty, then helped that team in again even when probably the best player ever left. Then captained a storied franchise, in the NHL's biggest city, to its first Stanley Cup in 54 years. Was tough and played an exciting, brazen brand of hockey. Extroverted and also well spoken. Messier was a guy who seemed like someone you would enjoy having a drink with if you were of a similar age, or who would be the coolest uncle you could imagine if you were younger. There aren't many guys who checked so may boxes in terms of endearing fandom.


After he's retired though those things kind of fade from memory, but his contemporary praise remains. Additionally you see new praise, ala the Mark Messier Leadership Award. The changes in hockey, both on ice and culturally, don't really match was Messier was either. I can see why some who didn't experience him during his prime would be inclined to take some shots, or why those who didn't like him at the time might feel more emboldened to take shots now.

 

[rfournier103]

problem is his final 10 years were 10 years of compiling and pretty meh overall.

thats a lot of dragging down

I hate to argue with a fellow Bruins fan, but ALL NHL players “compile.” Just some compile more than others.

Think of how hard it is just to GET to the NHL. Not only did Messier get to the NHL, but he played for over 20 years! I’d kill to have just ONE of his “meh” seasons! And a “meh” season for him was still better than the vast majority of his contemporaries.

He didn’t stay in the NHL just because he was Mark Messier. Yes, sometimes a great player will overstay his welcome for a year or two just because of who he is - but not for ten.

 

[seventieslord]

(minor) line brawl where everyone paired off. Messier grabbed Blake by his jersey at the front of the collar and was basically squeezing/twisting the jersey with the one hand, constricting around Blake's neck. You could see Blake starting to go purple in the face.

I wouldn't say Mess was a psycho, but he was a bit of animal on the ice

google "messier jason blake" and it's the first pic you see.

 

[The Panther]

google "messier jason blake" and it's the first pic you see.

Good grief, I watched the video of this. Much ado about nothing!

Messier only approached Blake in the first place because Blake jumped into a 1-on-1 between two other players and Mess tried to even it up. You can see him basically swat Blake away, and that should have been the end of it. But apparently Blake persisted, so Mess grabbed him by the jersey for about 5 seconds.

 

[seventieslord]

Good grief, I watched the video of this. Much ado about nothing!

Messier only approached Blake in the first place because Blake jumped into a 1-on-1 between two other players and Mess tried to even it up. You can see him basically swat Blake away, and that should have been the end of it. But apparently Blake persisted, so Mess grabbed him by the jersey for about 5 seconds.

Agree. He could have pummelled Blake but he didn't, he just manhandled him.

To see Blake actually get gooned up, just search for "Steve Downie Jason Blake".

 

[The Panther]

I mean, how many players were Hart nominees in their 18th season or beyond? Messier, Howe, Roy, Beliveau, and probably not too many more.

We'll see how Crosby and Ovechkin, etc., make out in this regard pretty soon.

Messier at age 35 was 2nd in Hart voting. Five years from now, will Crosby be at that level?