Regarding Mark Messier

[streitz]

We'll see how Crosby and Ovechkin, etc., make out in this regard pretty soon.

Messier at age 35 was 2nd in Hart voting. Five years from now, will Crosby be at that level?

Messier....? Is that you?

 

[The Panther]

Messier....? Is that you?

 

[Tyrolean]

I meant it in gest so as to avoid bad memories

jest

 

[sr edler]

I hate to argue with a fellow Bruins fan, but ALL NHL players “compile.” Just some compile more than others.

I can think of some mid to late 90s DPE star players who didn’t compile much at all. Bure and Forsberg comes to mind. They almost did the opposite, playing despite being injured (Bure 95–97). Forsberg took a year off though, not hurting his numbers.

Also, players can compile in different ways. You can do it a la Andreychuk in a smaller role, or you can do it like Messier in a bigger role despite not really being good enough to fill that role sufficiently anymore. He kinda did it in VAN and he certainly did it in his second stint in NY. And those team sucked partly because of it.

 

[Big Phil]

If Messier retired in 1997 I sometimes feel as if he'd have a better legacy. Not that he doesn't, because when we think of Messier we think of his Oilers years and stuff like 1994 for the Rangers. We think of VINTAGE Messier. And there isn't a person posting on here that doesn't want that guy on their team.

But a few things hurt him at the end. The Vancouver fiasco, coming back to the dysfunctional Rangers when he was old as dirt, missing the playoffs the last 7 years of his career, etc. That isn't the Messier I remember.

And yes, Vancouver fans more than anyone dislike him for a couple of reasons. 1994 obviously. Plus him coming in 1997 and sort of unseating Trevor Linden, a fan favourite. Tim Thomas might be hated by Canuck fans for winning "their" Cup in 2011, but he has nothing on Messier.

 

[The Panther]

...coming back to the dysfunctional Rangers when he was old as dirt

I did the research, and dirt was actually older than Messier then.... but it was close.

Plus him coming in 1997 and sort of unseating Trevor Linden...

Careful there! What we should say is: Trevor Linden unseated himself...

 

[Hanji]

Never lived up to his outrageous Vancouver contract. Furthermore, he and Keenan tore the lockeroom in two.

Messier is an all-time great, but by the Vancouver years he became too big for his britches. Messier, in his later years, is someone who epitomized ego and self-importance despite not backing it up on the ice.

 

[Big Phil]

Careful there! What we should say is: Trevor Linden unseated himself...

Yeah, it is true, he did give up the captaincy for Messier. No doubt he felt some pressure to do so and in a way it makes sense because everyone else would have done this for Messier in the summer of 1997. Lindros probably would have in Philly. If the Vancouver years were a success then we'd probably be saying it was a good move...................but they weren't.

 

[brachyrynchos]

Messier would've been a great middle 6 center in the late '90's. He wasn't terrible but was getting slower and was kinda worn down, he looked tired, the thing is that he was getting paid alot of $ for a role he was no longer best suited for. Whether it's ego/stubborness or something else like the Rangers not having a better option or not wanting to be the coach-GM to tell him that his value to the team would be greater in a lesser role, it just seemed like the 'legend' of Messier muddled things a bit, like it was far greater than his on ice and leadership contributions at that point. Trottier was a first line center once, he got old and understood and accepted it, other players have done the same by becoming excellent complimentary guys. For whatever reason Messier never did.

 

[The Panther]

Never lived up to his outrageous Vancouver contract. Furthermore, he and Keenan tore the lockeroom in two.

The previous season, long before anyone imagined Messier as a Canuck, there were articles about how the Canucks' dressing room was divided. The problems there existed before Messier arrived. Yes, his presence clearly didn't help as the team continued down into the gutter, but I wish people would stop saying he "did" everything. He did nothing in particular. Canucks' management crapped the bed, and they deserve the blame. Messier did his best; he was just old and the team was in severe decline.

 

[The Panther]

Messier would've been a great middle 6 center in the late '90's. He wasn't terrible but was getting slower and was kinda worn down, he looked tired, the thing is that he was getting paid alot of $ for a role he was no longer best suited for. Whether it's ego/stubborness or something else like the Rangers not having a better option or not wanting to be the coach-GM to tell him that his value to the team would be greater in a lesser role, it just seemed like the 'legend' of Messier muddled things a bit, like it was far greater than his on ice and leadership contributions at that point. Trottier was a first line center once, he got old and understood and accepted it, other players have done the same by becoming excellent complimentary guys. For whatever reason Messier never did.

This is all fair.

I think the "for whatever reason" is the mega-millions he was paid by the Canucks' "brain"trust. This was the peak of the free-agency era of veteran players getting big bucks. Once Mess was signed for a huge contact, the Canucks' management and coach (Renney) were all but obligated to let him play big minutes. You can't pay a guy a massive contract and then give him second-line minutes.

I suppose Messier is guilty of thinking he could do all that at his age and in that situation... but who is fundamentally to blame here: the management that thought 36-39-year-old Messier was worth more than the rest of their line-up combined, or Messier for taking a big contract offer?

You know, in three seasons in Van while pushing 40, Mess put up 162 points in 207 games, which isn't too bad for a senior in the DPE. He was an overall -20, while the team collectively was -125. Unless he was playing only 10 minutes a game, he was a positive force for the team. He just wasn't worth was the Canucks paid him.

 

[brachyrynchos]

It was a tough situation in New York, too. And you're right in that his top pay meant top minutes. For the Rangers he should've taken a lesser role, but I don't think Messier would've done that for Nedved. Lindros had his health issues and wasn't a reliable guy for top line duties, and Holik was kinda in a similar situation, getting alot of $. I guess it might've been a matter of (not sure of the best word...obligation?) the Rangers had with the guy who years earlier captained their team to their first cup in over 50 yrs.
(New glasses, sorry for the messy post)

 

[The Panther]

It was a tough situation in New York, too. And you're right in that his top pay meant top minutes. For the Rangers he should've taken a lesser role, but I don't think Messier would've done that for Nedved. Lindros had his health issues and wasn't a reliable guy for top line duties, and Holik was kinda in a similar situation, getting alot of $. I guess it might've been a matter of (not sure of the best word...obligation?) the Rangers had with the guy who years earlier captained their team to their first cup in over 50 yrs.
(New glasses, sorry for the messy post)

Right. I think when NYR "buried the hatchet" with Messier in 2000 (they had a press conference where Messier and Neil Smith literally buried a hatchet), the idea was that he'd be the #2 center behind Nedved. Which he basically was. But the mistake, maybe, is giving Messier the captaincy back. Anyway, then they signed Lindros who was supposed to be the #1, with Nedved and the fossil of Messier at #2 and #3. It might have worked if everybody was healthy, but Lindros was a shadow of himself post-concussions, and Messier and Nedved both got injured and each missed half the season.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Where does History board rank him all time?

Way too high.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Way too high.

Eh, I think Messier is a prime example of why the HOH board isn't some kind of one-mind monolith, as I've seen smart, credible posters put him anywhere from 15-35, which is a big spread in that rarified portion of an all-time list. And how much further down than that could you really get him? Pushing him below Yzerman would get you to 40th or so, and I can't think of any line of reasoning that would get him any lower than that, provided you're following the basic premise of these lists in general (consider everyone, no projections, numbered list instead of Killion's free-jazz approach).

 

[Killion]

...Pushing him below Yzerman would get you to 40th or so, and I can't think of any line of reasoning that would get him any lower than that, provided you're following the basic premise of these lists in general (consider everyone, no projections, numbered list instead of Killion's free-jazz approach).

.... the genre is actually more "lucid-fusion / acid-jazz"
.... but sure, "free" works too.... dash of funk, progressive....

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

for no reason just because

 

[Killion]

.... for no reason just because

..... alrighty then. Gotta love Miles Davis.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

..... alrighty then. Gotta love Miles Davis.

So who was better, Mark Messier or Miles Davis?

 

[Killion]

So who was better, Mark Messier or Miles Davis?

..... Miles Davis if were talking contributions to a cultural form of which music & sport, various forms of art & entertainment most certainly be.... though like many, I bemoan the advancements in each, artistic side be you a musician or a hockey player hijacked by the scientific, statisticians... lawyers, accountants, marketing, A&R... micro-management..... computerized, synthesized... virtual reality as opposed to, well.... REALITY. Collectivism rather than individualism.... not impressed.

 

[The Panther]

So who was better, Mark Messier or Miles Davis?

That's a tough one, as I love them both.

Miles sits in with Bird in Harlem = Mess in the WHA
Birth of the Cool = Mess's 1981-82 50-goal season
1955 Newport Jazz Festival / 'Round About Midnight = Mess's 1982-1984 all star seasons
First Quintet = Mess's 1984 Conn Smythe
Miles Ahead / Kind of Blue = Mess's 1984 to 1988
Sketches of Spain = Mess's 1989-90 Hart trophy
Second Quintet = Mess's first few seasons in New York
In A Silent Way / Bi***es Brew = Mess's 1994 Stanley Cup in New York
On the Corner = Mess's 1995-96 season
1980-1985 pop-light 'comeback' = Mess with Vancouver
1986 to 1991 = Mess's final years with NYR


I could draw further analogy between Louis Armstrong and Gordie Howe...

 

[whcanuck]

Ok I'm a Canucks fan, but I'm not a huge Messier hater. Did I love his time with the team? Nope, but the team was a huge mess (no pun intended) at the time and Messier, rightly or wrongly, gets blamed for a lot of it. He was nearing the end of his career and was probably just playing for the money...but that team stunk so I'm over it. With the Oilers and Rangers between 1979 and 1997, the man was a beast. The perfect combination of physicality, finesse and he had a nasty streak to boot. I wish the Canucks could have gotten him then! He was a winner, and played with fierce determination during those years. The comparisons to Gordie Howe are right on the money as far as I'm concerned.

 

[MS]

Messier is reviled in Vancouver with damned good reason. Laziest, most selfish, most pathetic effort by any player ever to wear the uniform. If you weren't sitting in the building watching him lollygag as the last man back 40 feet behind the play *on every freaking shift*, you don't understand. If you didn't have to listen to this arrogant piece of crap and his oversized ego give nauseating self-absorbed interviews every night, you don't understand. If you didn't see him trying to play GM, sitting at centre court at NBA games with the team owner, orchestrate the trade of teammates and travel separately from the rest of the club on road trips, you don't understand.

It isn't about Linden. It isn't about Wayne Maki. It's about Mark Messier and what a complete arrogant douchebag he was off the ice while putting in the most minimal effort on the ice and stealing $18 million from the team's ticket-buying public.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Mark Messier = Madonna

Early Years on LW: Holiday/Lucky Star
1984 Playoffs: Like a Virgin
Late-20s: Material Girl/Into the Groove
1988 Playoffs: Papa Don’t Preach
Hart Season: Like a Prayer
New York: Vogue
Nielson: Erotica
1994 Playoffs: Secret/Take a Bow
Last Good Years: Ray of Light
Vancouver: Madonna’s Cowboy Phase
Return to NY: Hung Up
The Bad Years: Hard Candy/MDNA

 

[quoipourquoi]

Don’t attack other posters.