Red Deer gives players the finger

[Icey]

So....are you trying to convince me that the locals teams affiliation with the Dallas Stars played a big roll. I can't argue with that line of thought. You would think though, being the big NHLPA supporter that you are, you would try to present an argument which distanced itself from the NHL or anything NHL related. Sounds to me like this was promoted as an NHL Dallas Stars associated event. You think it would have made a difference in Red Deer if it was promoted as an NHL Edmonton Oiler associated event for charity? Uh...yes.
And this helps your argument....how?

I wouldn't say I am a big NHLPA supporter. I understand both sides and see both sides points, but I do lean more towards the players than the owners. I think the players are right in some thing and wrong on others. Just like I agree with owners on certain issues and think they have lost their minds on others. At the end of the day, I am on my side. I think the players should have taken the last offer Bettman offered at the end of the season. I think they were stupid not to. Not because it was a great offer, but because its the best they are going to get.

You want people to believe this event was a success because a local team was playing. I say the local team may have played a role in it, but I believe this event was a success because the Dallas Stars played. People in this area want to see the Stars play, not a bunch of middle of the road wannabe hockey players, but professional NHL hockey players. And we will never know if this event would have been as much a success if it just involved NHL players nor do we know if Ryan Smith teamed up with a local hockey team if his event would have been a success.

If they wanted to see just hockey they could go see the Ft. Worth Brahamas play, but they don't. They don't even go see the Texas Tornado who are champions year after year. They draw a crowd, but certainly not a sell out crowd. Now this game sells out and sorry but I have to believe it is because the Dallas Stars were playing and sitting in that arena last night I know a majority of the people were there for the Stars and not the Tornado.

And my original point was that not all fans are like the fans in Red Deer. Many on this board want to think that Ryans charity event was a flop because fans were making a point of supporting the owners and staying away, and I was just saying that not all fans have not turned their backs on the players, and they certainly have not in Dallas. Just seeing the fans lined up for players autographs last night after the game proved that. If they were there to see the Tornado why would they want Mike Modano or Brenden Morrow's autograph?

 

[guymez]

I wouldn't say I am a big NHLPA supporter. I understand both sides and see both sides points, but I do lean more towards the players than the owners. I think the players are right in some thing and wrong on others. Just like I agree with owners on certain issues and think they have lost their minds on others. At the end of the day, I am on my side. I think the players should have taken the last offer Bettman offered at the end of the season. I think they were stupid not to. Not because it was a great offer, but because its the best they are going to get.

You want people to believe this event was a success because a local team was playing. I say the local team may have played a role in it, but I believe this event was a success because the Dallas Stars played. People in this area want to see the Stars play, not a bunch of middle of the road wannabe hockey players, but professional NHL hockey players. And we will never know if this event would have been as much a success if it just involved NHL players nor do we know if Ryan Smith teamed up with a local hockey team if his event would have been a success.

If they wanted to see just hockey they could go see the Ft. Worth Brahamas play, but they don't. They don't even go see the Texas Tornado who are champions year after year. They draw a crowd, but certainly not a sell out crowd. Now this game sells out and sorry but I have to believe it is because the Dallas Stars were playing and sitting in that arena last night I know a majority of the people were there for the Stars and not the Tornado.

And my original point was that not all fans are like the fans in Red Deer. Many on this board want to think that Ryans charity event was a flop because fans were making a point of supporting the owners and staying away, and I was just saying that not all fans have not turned their backs on the players, and they certainly have not in Dallas. Just seeing the fans lined up for players autographs last night after the game proved that. If they were there to see the Tornado why would they want Mike Modano or Brenden Morrow's autograph?

Do I think that if the Red Deer Rebels played the Edmonton Oilers in a charity game it would sell out? Without a doubt. Thats considering the Rebels have no association with the Oilers what so ever, unlike the Toronado and the Stars.
The point is these events were different. There are many differences which have been stated (many by you) in this thread.
Oh...and the Tornado sell out quite often. Here is a link to just one of the archived game reports.

http://www.tornadohockey.com/news/archive/index.cfm?ArchiveID=234

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

Just heard on the Fan 960, that the game in Winnipeg has been cancelled due to poor pre-ticket sales. They said only about 800 had been sold.

That has been confirmed from someone inside the Moose organization. Smyth is folding his tents and has got the message!

 

[se7en*]

Icey, are you trying to say that the game in Red Deer didn't sell out because the hockey wasn't affiliated with the NHL, not because the fans in Alberta wanted deliver the union a message? Well, believe it. We have very savvy, intelligent fans.

 

[Icey]

Do I think that if the Red Deer Rebels played the Edmonton Oilers in a charity game it would sell out? Without a doubt. Thats considering the Rebels have no association with the Oilers what so ever, unlike the Toronado and the Stars.
The point is these events were different. There are many differences which have been stated (many by you) in this thread.
Oh...and the Tornado sell out quite often. Here is a link to just one of the archived game reports.

http://www.tornadohockey.com/news/archive/index.cfm?ArchiveID=234

I have attended at least a dozen of their games this season and never once did I buy a ticket in advance and never once was I turned away at the ticket window.

They do draw a crowd, but I think a majority of it is a walk up type of crowd vs. a NHL team that buys in advance. I am sure they do sell out some games, but I don't think majority of them are. Last nights game was the largest crowd they ever had at that arena. That says something about what the draw was.

This discussion could go on forever, with neither you nor I ever winning. It's getting old. It is was a great event, lets leave it at that.

 

[Icey]

Icey, are you trying to say that the game in Red Deer didn't sell out because the hockey wasn't affiliated with the NHL, not because the fans in Alberta wanted deliver the union a message? Well, believe it. We have very savvy, intelligent fans.

Not at all.

I am saying the draw for the event in Dallas was the Dallas Stars. People wanted to see the Dallas Stars and that is what drew them to the game. Maybe the people in Alberta wanted to send the union a message and perhaps they did, but maybe the people in Dallas wanted to send them a message also, just not the same message. Not all fans are behind the ownerns, certainly not the majority of the fans in Dallas at least.

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

Not at all.

I am saying the draw for the event in Dallas was the Dallas Stars. People wanted to see the Dallas Stars and that is what drew them to the game. Maybe the people in Alberta wanted to send the union a message and perhaps they did, but maybe the people in Dallas wanted to send them a message also, just not the same message. Not all fans are behind the ownerns, certainly not the majority of the fans in Dallas at least.

This actually raises another interesting question about how different markets might respond to either player-organized games or NHL games with replacement players. Do you actually feel that the people of Dallas wanted to "send a message" against the owners (or in favor of the players)? Or do you think it's more likely that their interest in seeing a game involving their local NHLers had very little to do one way or another with this labor dispute, and wasn't much different than the same interest that existed during regular NHL seasons? In other words, is there simply not as much emotional impact there from the labor dispute, and as a result, not much effect on reaction to games involving NHLers... business as usual.

 

[Hawker14]

let's also remember that the brad may NHLPA charity game was a huge success.

the differences from ryan smyth's.

i) may worked on the game promotion for six weeks with the Giants
ii) the Giants were participants in the game
iii) the game was played in the Giants home arena
iv) corporate sponsors were lined up in advance
v) Cdn national TV exposure on Bell Xpressvu ... available on PPV for free !

i wouldn't say the lack of success of smyth's events are a backlash at the players, as much as they weren't well prepped events.

if anything, the timing was poor with the nhl oldtimers playing on previous nights.

i eagerly await how the pro-owners spin may's success as an indictment of the players.

 

[PecaFan]

That's kind of sad and I hope you're very wrong about the 85 percent figure.

No, I think he's right. Sadly. Generous folks, the ones who donate, tend to do it without receiving anything tangible in return. They donate directly, or have it taken off their paycheque, etc. Yes, there's the tax benefits, but few are doing it *solely* for that.

The other kind of person only donates when they get something. IE, they see a hockey game, etc. And probably more often than not aren't even thinking about the charity.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

is it just me or maybe the fact that that hockey game in Dallas was a success because they got no other altervative?

here in Edmonton, we have the Roadrunners, the U of A Golden Bears going for a National title, the AJHL and the WHL not far away...

maybe fans just simply feel that they're so disgusted with the NHL that there is better hockey out there??

 

[Sammy*]

let's also remember that the brad may NHLPA charity game was a huge success.

the differences from ryan smyth's.

i) may worked on the game promotion for six weeks with the Giants
ii) the Giants were participants in the game
iii) the game was played in the Giants home arena
iv) corporate sponsors were lined up in advance
v) Cdn national TV exposure on Bell Xpressvu ... available on PPV for free !

i wouldn't say the lack of success of smyth's events are a backlash at the players, as much as they weren't well prepped events.

if anything, the timing was poor with the nhl oldtimers playing on previous nights.

i eagerly await how the pro-owners spin may's success as an indictment of the players.

When was the Brad May "charity" event held? I suspect it was long before the players greed had fully manifested itself to the public.

 

[Hawker14]

When was the Brad May "charity" event held? I suspect it was long before the players greed had fully manifested itself to the public.

so the players have become greedier since then, while the owners are mere pawns in this financial struggle of millionaires/billionaires?

 

[Timmy]

so the players have become greedier since then, while the owners are mere pawns in this financial struggle of millionaires/billionaires?

I think pro-owners see it as a struggle for the league's survival, and don't have sympathy for the owners as much as they do love for pro hockey's continued existence long into the future.

 

[Hawker14]

I think pro-owners see it as a struggle for the league's survival, and don't have sympathy for the owners as much as they do love for pro hockey's continued existence long into the future.

wouldn't league wide revenue sharing ensure the NHL's continued existance ?

 

[Timmy]

wouldn't league wide revenue sharing ensure the NHL's continued existance ?

League-wide expenses > League-wide revenues = Unsustainable business

 

[Hawker14]

League-wide expenses > League-wide revenues = Unsustainable business

and revenue sharing wouldn't remedy this how ?

 

[Timmy]

and revenue sharing wouldn't remedy this how ?

The league as a whole still loses money unless expenses are lowered.

 

[Hawker14]

The league as a whole still loses money unless expenses are lowered.

and with a salary cap of $ 45 million, and a floor of $ 30 million, how does revenue sharing not work ?

 

[Hawker14]

c'mon timmy,

we're waiting

 

[Timmy]

and with a salary cap of $ 45 million, and a floor of $ 30 million, how does revenue sharing not work ?

Okay, with a cap.

That's fine.

Sorry, I'm one braincell away from a Florida court case.

 

[kdb209]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
League-wide expenses > League-wide revenues = Unsustainable business

and revenue sharing wouldn't remedy this how ?

How would revenue sharing alone fix this?

It doesn't increase league wide revenues - it just moves them around.

It doesn't reduce league wide expenses - it may actually increase them, as low payroll teams receiving net revenue sharing $'s will undoubtably spend some (all) of it on player salaries. Whether the high revenue teams paying in to revenue sharing will reduce their payrolls more to offset this affect is unlikely. And if you look at the MLB model of revenue sharing - teams receiving $'s are required to spend it all to improve their teams.

 

[Hawker14]

just too bad the nhl owners, even with all their supposed losses, are still against revenue sharing.

pitty jeremy jacobs and bill wirtz, poor fellas who are barely making ends meet.

 

[Hawker14]

How would revenue sharing alone fix this?

It doesn't increase league wide revenues - it just moves them around.

It doesn't reduce league wide expenses - it may actually increase them, as low payroll teams receiving net revenue sharing $'s will undoubtably spend some (all) of it on player salaries. Whether the high revenue teams paying in to revenue sharing will reduce their payrolls more to offset this affect is unlikely. And if you look at the MLB model of revenue sharing - teams receiving $'s are required to spend it all to improve their teams.

simple, nhl teams divide the $ 2.1 billion among themselves. each team has $ 70 million in revenues, with a salary cap of $ 45 million.

explain how league wide expenses go over revenues in this scenario

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

let's also remember that the brad may NHLPA charity game was a huge success.

the differences from ryan smyth's.

i) may worked on the game promotion for six weeks with the Giants
ii) the Giants were participants in the game
iii) the game was played in the Giants home arena
iv) corporate sponsors were lined up in advance
v) Cdn national TV exposure on Bell Xpressvu ... available on PPV for free !

i wouldn't say the lack of success of smyth's events are a backlash at the players, as much as they weren't well prepped events.

if anything, the timing was poor with the nhl oldtimers playing on previous nights.

i eagerly await how the pro-owners spin may's success as an indictment of the players.

I'm waiting for you to explain how come Winnipeg was cancelled? I thought you would have bought a section by yourself in support of the NHLPA and the "charity"? What happened? An old timer game the night before steal all the disposable income for Winnipegers?

As for the Brad May and Friends game, the timing was substantially different. This was planned in October and played long before the season was cancelled and much of the very hard feelings toward the players had not yet materialized.

It should also be noted that this was in support of "Canucks Place", not "NHLPA Place" or "Brad May Place". The community support was there not only because of the players but because of the organization. This, like the Dallas game, was a partnership that was in the making before things got ugly. There are some major differences there that make the two near impossible to compare. I would like to see that event take place right now and see what the response would be. Likely much better than Red Deer and Winnipeg, but I doubt it would come close to what it was.

 

[Hawker14]

I'm waiting for you to explain how come Winnipeg was cancelled? I thought you would have bought a section by yourself in support of the NHLPA and the "charity"? What happened? An old timer game the night before steal all the disposable income for Winnipegers?

As for the Brad May and Friends game, the timing was substantially different. This was planned in October and played long before the season was cancelled and much of the very hard feelings toward the players had not yet materialized.

It should also be noted that this was in support of "Canucks Place", not "NHLPA Place" or "Brad May Place". The community support was there not only because of the players but because of the organization. This, like the Dallas game, was a partnership that was in the making before things got ugly. There are some major differences there that make the two near impossible to compare. I would like to see that event take place right now and see what the response would be. Likely much better than Red Deer and Winnipeg, but I doubt it would come close to what it was.

can't argue.

one word. planning