Realistically, Which Calibre Of Centre Will Matthews Become?

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I’m not saying he should be but take it from a guy who has watched ennis almost his
Whole career, he can’t put up points unless he’s a top six player and it’s nice the leafs are giving him a try out contract and all but he is next to done. He was a shell of his former self post concussions went to Minnesota and we got a Dman for him and Marcus foligno in scandella (along with pominville) then chuck fletcher got fired soon after (hmm) because the wild had faith Ennis was going to be his former self.

Bombed.

If Ennis is going to put up points in Toronto this is the only way, playing with a Matthews or another one of your top centres.

It doesn’t do the leafs good though.

I’m not saying you need nylander the perfect thing would be to trade him for and an, Matthews doesn’t need him but he helps him. The leafs didn’t look fast last night and I don’t know I’m not saying there relying on him either for speed but something was missing. Other then killer instinct and clit h scoring/goaltending which got them the two points.

I hope Ennis well but josh leivo or another kid should get the slot, trust me wait till you see a washed up Ennis in a bottom six role.

It won’t be pretty.

I think you misunderstood, you said they could easily trade Nylander for a D man, I'm telling you, you are wrong because if they do that then Ennis remains on Matthews line, and while, I have liked Ennis so far that can't happen .

They need to keep Nylander so that Ennis can play where he was suppose to and that is ideally on the 3rd line with Kadri and Brown.

This Nylander thing won't last much longer because it can't because now Nylander is losing money, It's only a matter of time before he cracks and signs

 

[LeafsNation75]

And between that year and the year he played his first game, how many changes were made?

Matthews had 69 points on a team that had 5 60-point players. He finished all of 7 points ahead of the #2 guy.

Crosby had 102 points on a team that had zero other 60-point players.

Ovechkin had 106 points on a team that had zero other 60-point players.

Go ahead. Try to tell us again that what you said was in any way significant. The difference here is that Ovechkin and Crosby would have needed to carry their teams into the playoffs, and despite putting up 100-point seasons it still wasn't enough(see: McDavid this last season). Matthews didn't need to do that, and his team made the playoffs despite his season being significantly less than what they accomplished.

Matthews wasn't the difference, anymore than Kadri, Nylander, Marner, Rielly, or any other single player was.

Among the UFA's they signed prior to Matthews rookie season was Matt Martin, Roman Polak (Who they traded prior to the deadline) and Jonas Enroth. Players who left as UFA's and were on their roster when they finished last place overall was P.A. Parenteau and Michael Grabner. So it's not like they made any big moves to guarantee they made the playoffs in 2017.

 

[Sojourn]

Among the UFA's they signed prior to Matthews rookie season was Matt Martin, Roman Polak (Who they traded prior to the deadline) and Jonas Enroth. Players who left as UFA's and were on their roster when they finished last place overall was P.A. Parenteau and Michael Grabner. So it's not like they made any big moves to guarantee they made the playoffs in 2017.

So adding Marner, Matthews, and Nylander to the roster doesn't count as significant? Three players who finished with at least 60 points?

These attempts to selectively leave out important information to try to prop up an argument needs to stop. Really, it does. It's a garbage approach. It shows that you aren't interested in honesty, so long as it makes your player look better.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So adding Marner, Matthews, and Nylander to the roster doesn't count as significant? Three players who finished with at least 60 points?

These attempts to selectively leave out important information to try to prop up an argument needs to stop. Really, it does. It's a garbage approach. It shows that you aren't interested in honesty, so long as it makes your player look better.

They were significant, however when you asked what changes were made I thought you meant only new players signed prior to Matthews rookie season. That's why I didn't include Marner who they already drafted and Nylander who had made already his debut on February 29, 2016.

I also forgot to add one other UFA signing they made prior to Matthews rookie season was signing Nikita Zaitsev from the KHL.

As for any significant trades they added Frederik Andersen as their #1 goalie and gave him a 5 year contract since he was set to become an RFA at the time of his trade.

 

[Sojourn]

They were significant, however when you asked what changes were made I thought you meant only new players signed prior to Matthews rookie season. That's why I didn't include Marner who they already drafted and Nylander who had made already his debut on February 29, 2016.

I also forgot to add one other UFA signing they made prior to Matthews rookie season was signing Nikita Zaitsev from the KHL.

I didn't specify only new players signed, because Toronto was a team that clearly improved by adding a number of very good young players. Whether they did that expecting to make the playoffs that season isn't really relevant. It wasn't a team that finished last, and then turned things around with the addition of one good player.

Matthews deserves credit for helping, but he wasn't alone in that. With that in mind, what possible point is there in saying Matthews made the playoffs right from the jump, while also noting Ovechkin and Crosby didn't? I mean, it says absolutely nothing about Matthews as an individual. Crosby and Ovechkin did more, with less, but were simply on worse teams.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

It's not.

It's actually completely meaningless, except to say that Crosby and Ovechkin started their careers on worse teams.

Did they? Dead last and 7 rookies.

 

[TDotMassive]

And between that year and the year he played his first game, how many changes were made?

Matthews had 69 points on a team that had 5 60-point players. He finished all of 7 points ahead of the #2 guy.

Crosby had 102 points on a team that had zero other 60-point players.

Ovechkin had 106 points on a team that had zero other 60-point players.

Go ahead. Try to tell us again that what you said was in any way significant. The difference here is that Ovechkin and Crosby would have needed to carry their teams into the playoffs, and despite putting up 100-point seasons it still wasn't enough(see: McDavid this last season). Matthews didn't need to do that, and his team made the playoffs despite his season being significantly less than what they accomplished.

Matthews wasn't the difference, anymore than Kadri, Nylander, Marner, Rielly, or any other single player was.

I do agree with you the Leafs had a better team than Pens/Caps in those years, there's no doubt Matthews had more talent around him. He did play with dead-hands Hyman though, who converted only about 7-8% of what Matthews fed him. Matthews played significantly less ice time per game that Crosby/Ovi with almost no PP time. I am not saying Matthews is as good as Crosby, not even suggesting it... just saying 40 goals as a teenage rookie is a ridiculous accomplishment. He was the first rookie since Ovi to hit 40 goals. With the kind of ice time and PP opportunities Sid and Ovi had, Matthews would have been a lot higher. Even still, he led the entire NHL in even-strength goals as a rookie.

Anyway, Leafs made it into the playoffs by 1 single point that season. To think removing their top line center and top goal scorer wouldn't have made the difference of them getting into playoffs is madness. Anyone watching the Leafs knows Matthews drives the team... Leafs don't go anywhere without him, especially that season. His impact is far, far greater than Kadri, Nylander or any other skater on the team. Dude scored 16% of the Leafs total goals... of course it made a huge difference.

 

[TDotMassive]

And if you remove JVR, Marner, Nylander, or Kadri is that not also true?

This suggestion that Matthews alone was the difference is garbage. No one is going to buy that, because it's so clearly not true. Please stop trying to rewrite history.

LOL, man... hockey is a team game, no single player is EVER the complete difference. Oilers won a cup without Gretzky. McDavid missed the playoffs last year. It is a TEAM sport. So no, Matthews did not make 100% of the difference, however he did make the MOST significant difference of any player on the team, there is no doubt of that. His value to the team is far greater than JVR, Marner, Nylander, Kadri, etc... he is the single most valuable player on the team, by FAR.

 

[Sojourn]

LOL, man... hockey is a team game, no single player is EVER the complete difference. Oilers won a cup without Gretzky. McDavid missed the playoffs last year. It is a TEAM sport. So no, Matthews did not make 100% of the difference, however he did make the MOST significant difference of any player on the team, there is no doubt of that. His value to the team is far greater than JVR, Marner, Nylander, Kadri, etc... he is the single most valuable player on the team, by FAR.

And, by your own statement, they made it into the playoffs by 1 point.

So remove any of those guys, and they fall short. Stop pretending he was the difference. He didn't carry the anywhere.

None of this takes away from a good rookie season, by the way. But you're trying to artificially inflate his contributions by even implying he was the reason they made it. The whole point here is that it's ridiculous to point to Matthews making the playoffs his first season, and noting that Crosby and Ovechkin didn't. What exactly does that say? It doesn't make Matthews look better as an individual; not unless you're already hoping to see that. From an objective point of view, it's completely meaningless to compare them individually in that way. It has nothing to do with personal contributions, especially because Ovechkin and Crosby contributed far more to their teams those seasons.

Did they? Dead last and 7 rookies.

Yes, 3 of those rookies had 60-point seasons.

Are you going to try to selectively leave out important information to try to make your point too?

Yes, they started on worse teams. Unquestionably so. Crosby and Ovechkin played on teams that only had 1 player with 60 or more points(it was them, in both cases), and they finished 40+ points up on the 2nd ranked guy. The fact you're even trying to suggest it's a question is laughable, and incredibly ignorant.

 

[ottawa]

Hopefully a 70 point tier one at some point

 

[LeafsNation75]

Yes, 3 of those rookies had 60-point seasons.

Are you going to try to selectively leave out important information to try to make your point too?

Yes, they started on worse teams. Unquestionably so. Crosby and Ovechkin played on teams that only had 1 player with 60 or more points(it was them, in both cases), and they finished 40+ points up on the 2nd ranked guy. The fact you're even trying to suggest it's a question is laughable, and incredibly ignorant.

The point is going into the 2016-2017 season even with Matthews, Marner and Nylander playing full time or the addition of Andersen in goal, no one predicted the Leafs to be a playoff team. If anything they were expected to finish 20th overall which would have been an improvement of 10 spots in the overall standings.

 

[Sojourn]

The point is going into the 2016-2017 season even with Matthews, Marner and Nylander playing full time or the addition of Andersen in goal, no one predicted the Leafs to be a playoff team. If anything they were expected to finish 20th overall which would have been an improvement of 10 spots in the overall standings.

If that were the point, you had no reason to bring up Crosby and Ovechkin.

Let me remind you the post I responded to:

Crosby also didn't first make the playoffs until his 2nd season and Ovechkin didn't first make the playoffs until his 3rd season, where as Matthews has been able to make the playoffs during his first 2 seasons. However I guess that stat is not important to mention.

You had a different agenda.

And, I’ll repeat, that stat isn’t important to mention, unless you’re trying to talk about Toronto as a team and not Matthews as an individual. That was clearly not the case, since you brought up Ovechkin and Crosby.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Lmao, struggling to get 3 seasons better than Matthews rookie season, which wasn't even as good as his sophmore year.

The rookie year is still etter than all but the 92pt year btw, 40 goals > 32 goals, goals > assists

So Jonathan Cheechoo > Thornton?

Anders Lee > Tavares?

 

[gamer1035]

So Jonathan Cheechoo > Thornton?

Anders Lee > Tavares?

Last I checked Matthews wasn't a passenger on his line when he got all those goals. Yes goals > assists.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Last I checked Matthews wasn't a passenger on his line when he got all those goals. Yes goals > assists.

So again, if goals > assists then Lee > Tavares?

Laine > Matthews?

Ovi > McDavid?

 

[gamer1035]

So again, if goals > assists then Lee > Tavares?

Laine > Matthews?

Ovi > McDavid?

Laine does not score more goals than Matthews.

Lee was a pasenger, so his goals are less impressive.

Yeah Ovi is close the McDavid but it was only 8 less goals but had 20 more points. Mcdavid better

 

[nbwingsfan]

Laine does not score more goals than Matthews.

Lee was a pasenger, so his goals are less impressive.

Yeah Ovi is close the McDavid but it was only 8 less goals but had 20 more points. Mcdavid better

Last I checked 44 is more than 34? And if you're using pace, Laine was on pace for even more goals than Matthews in their rookie year.

So again, Laine > Matthews?

 

[Tage2Tuch]

I think you misunderstood, you said they could easily trade Nylander for a D man, I'm telling you, you are wrong because if they do that then Ennis remains on Matthews line, and while, I have liked Ennis so far that can't happen .

They need to keep Nylander so that Ennis can play where he was suppose to and that is ideally on the 3rd line with Kadri and Brown.

This Nylander thing won't last much longer because it can't because now Nylander is losing money, It's only a matter of time before he cracks and signs

Why on earth would Ennis have to play on that line if they traded nylander for a dman? Surely there winger depth isn’t that bad? The guy couldn’t crack the wild and the sabres couldn’t wait to get rid of him. Crafty player and great when he wasn’t concuussed but his time is done in this league. Playing with Matthews is literally the only way he’s going to put up points now.

You guys got solid prospects the marlies just won the Calder cup. Ennis is just a cheap experiment Dubas is trying out, nothing wrong with that but don’t think he’s the only option.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Last I checked 44 is more than 34? And if you're using pace, Laine was on pace for even more goals than Matthews in their rookie year.

So again, Laine > Matthews?

During their rookie seasons Matthews scored 40 goals and Laine scored 36 goals.

I should also remind you last season Matthews was ahead of Laine in total goals despite his first 2 injuries. It was not until after Matthews third injury on February 22, 2018 when Laine passed him for more goals last season. So the fact that Matthews missed 20 total games was a major reason for Laine scoring more goals than him.

 

[nbwingsfan]

During their rookie seasons Matthews scored 40 goals and Laine scored 36 goals.

I should also remind you last season Matthews was ahead of Laine in total goals despite his first 2 injuries. It was not until after Matthews third injury on February 22, 2018 when Laine passed him for more goals last season. So the fact that Matthews missed 20 total games was a major reason for Laine scoring more goals than him.

You missed the point entirely, and used the same excuses he used.

Laine scored less his rookie year because of injury, Matthews scored less last year because of injury.

If you're using pace, Laine scores more.

So to his point, Laine > Matthews, right?

 

[LeafsNation75]

You missed the point entirely, and used the same excuses he used.

Laine scored less his rookie year because of injury, Matthews scored less last year because of injury.

If you're using pace, Laine scores more.

So to his point, Laine > Matthews, right?

Last season Matthews was on pace to score 45 goals which would have been one more than the 44 goals Laine had.

 

[G0AT]

Kopitar esque.

 

[mad4comp]

During their rookie seasons Matthews scored 40 goals and Laine scored 36 goals.

I should also remind you last season Matthews was ahead of Laine in total goals despite his first 2 injuries. It was not until after Matthews third injury on February 22, 2018 when Laine passed him for more goals last season. So the fact that Matthews missed 20 total games was a major reason for Laine scoring more goals than him.

So basically Laine is more durable than Matthews? I'll take the guy that stays healthy and scores more goals than the guy with the potential to score more goals, but gets injured often.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So basically Laine is more durable than Matthews? I'll take the guy that stays healthy and scores more goals than the guy with the potential to score more goals, but gets injured often.

You do remember Laine missed 8 or 9 games in his rookie season with a concussion and it could easily happen again if he doesn't keep his head up. Plus that same season Matthews played all 82 games, so it's not fair saying Laine is more durable and Matthews is not.

 

[La Masse]

Nobody really knows what Matthews ceiling is. Thats what makes watching Matthews so special and us Leaf fans haven’t had a player of his caliber in a while. For all the talk that guys like Eichel and Barkov have alot of room to grow, the same can be said for Matthews