Line Combos: (Realistically) Do we have 2 number 2 Centres?

[-DeMo-]

I'm talking about Bozak and Kadri.

Wouldn't we be better off trading one (Kadri) in order to improve the 1C spot.

Not every player gets to play with his good friend his entire career.

Would we be better off:

JvR ____ Kessel
Lupul Bozak Clarkson
_____ Holland ______
Ashton McClement D'amigo

?

imo you don't load up your top line with your three best players. you put ur top 2 Kessel + #1C and then you put a guy who can go to the net and play a physical game to go into the corners and get the puck and give it to Kessel or #1C. Clarkson mostly fits this bill, because those other two would produce enough on there own.

Clarkson _____ Kessel
Lupul Bozak JVR

as the top 6

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

who is trading a number one centre though? These pie in the sky ideas are fun, but not based in reality. If I have a number one centre, I'm not looking at Kadri as a key piece to get back.

Exactly. Leafs who could be the key guy in a trade for a young number one centre:

Kessel
Rielly

Or, for a 1B:

JVR
Phaneuf

 

[Dirty Dan]

Bozak isn't a number 2 centre, because he probably would not be able to produce without skilled linemates

 

[The_Chosen_One]

If somebody wants to give us their legit #1 C for Kadri, I'm all for it, but I'm not stupid enough to believe that's in any way a reasonable expectation.

I used to think people we're impatient and ignorant for wanting to trade Kadri. Now I realize that these people's problem is just that they don't understand how trading works, and how we can't just decide to trade for a #1 center. This isn't NHL14.

No one is going to trade a #1C for Kadri. The only potential trade I could see is a package for someone like Evander Kane. While, Kadri may be a better point producer, Kane looks like a potential clutch forward. Otherwise, we're better off keeping Kadri.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Kadri makes the most sense as a trade asset. Bozak has shown great chemistry with Kessel, and he's been locked up at a very reasonable $4.2M.

So our 1st line has a cap hit of $16.45M which lasts until the end of 2017-18. This top line produced 86 goals this season, or roughly 5.22 goals/$1M spent.

Comparatively, Corey Perry and Ryan Getzlaf eat up $16.875M between the two of them, and the Ducks' top line of Smith-Pelley - Getzlaf - Perry (as per HFBoards) netted 76 goals (though Smith-Pelley only played 19 games, so over an 82-game schedule, that would be about 8 goals), so let's make it 82 goals.

That equates to 4.64 goals/$1M spent.

Here're the numbers for the Eastern Conference playoff teams:
5.59G/$1M (Iginla got 30G on $1.8M with $2.4M in bonuses)
29.69G/$1M (3 ELC players: Johansen+Skille+Jenner)
5.21G/$1M
6.32G/$1M
4.78G/$1M
4.16G/$1M (using Giroux's new cap hit)
6.17G/$1M (1 ELC player: Bennett)
11.54G/$1M (2 ELC players: Johnson+Palat)

So arguably, the Leafs get legit top-line production from their top line at an about average cap expenditure, when not accounting for ELCs.

And really, the above data just goes to show how important timely ELC players are to keeping teams competitive. Tampa's "top line" combined for 103 goals this season (pro-rated to 82-games for Stamkos, netting him 55 goals), however, having two ELC players means that line still had a lower cap hit than the Leafs.

Points aren't everything. Our top line is too dimensional. It can't cycle the puck well like legit top lines and lacks the versatility one sees in playoffs calibre lines. We need to get Bozak off the #1C spot and a big, two-way centre to man the middle.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

Bozak isn't a number 2 centre, because he probably would not be able to produce without skilled linemates

Silly post. Who cares what Bozak produces! As long as he can chip in with some secondary scoring and play the C position well why do we care if Bozak gets his 50 points or not?! I'm talking about trying to balance out the team. It would be nice for a change to see the leafs' 2nd line stop the other team from scoring wouldn't you say?! How about winning? Can we at least strive for that?

 

[Wami]

Silly post. Who cares what Bozak produces! As long as he can chip in with some secondary scoring and play the C position well why do we care if Bozak gets his 50 points or not?! I'm talking about trying to balance out the team. It would be nice for a change to see the leafs' 2nd line stop the other team from scoring wouldn't you say?! How about winning? Can we at least strive for that?

So your formula for winning is to essentially have three checking lines.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

So your formula for winning is to essentially have three checking lines.

Lets start by having atleast one.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I would move either in a package for a higher impact C. Kadri is easier to move, im sure

Would you move JVR for a quality center?

 

[Mess]

Would you move JVR for a quality center?

JVR for ROR.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

So your formula for winning is to essentially have three checking lines.

Yes.

:atomic face palm:

It's so frustrating debating hockey with people who care about fantasy hockey, prediction contests, NHL 14 pools, scoring races for trophies, player agent propaganda, statistical bragging rights, etc.

If putting Bozak on the 2nd line meant more wins than losses would most leaf fans be on board with that? Not here. It's more important to have Bozak get his points.

 

[Joey Hoser]

If putting Bozak on the 2nd line meant more wins than losses would most leaf fans be on board with that? Not here. It's more important to have Bozak get his points.

No, the issue people have here is that you need the #1 center before you plan to move Bozak to the second line, and there are no realistic options available to acquire one at this poitn.

You are the one who thinks this is NHL 14, where all we have to do is trade Kadri + some bits and acquire Getzlaf or some other #1 NHL center.

Everybody wants a legit #1. Stop acting like you're the only one.

Other people are just realistic. You are not.

 

[Mess]

If putting Bozak on the 2nd line meant more wins than losses would most leaf fans be on board with that? Not here. It's more important to have Bozak get his points.

Its actually not about Bozak getting points its really about Kessel getting the most points.

If Bozak could be moved for a center that made Kessel better and more complete then see-ya-later alligator Bozak. If Kadri was dealt for a #1C then Bozak being bumped down I don't think it would bother anyone.

This team is being built around Kessel, and whatever is best for Phil.

 

[The CyNick]

Asked and answered see above post #62.

Also if you don't think Kadri can even be a piece in a multi-player offer for a #1C then what does that say about Naz contribution and status as Leaf top 6 center? You're essentially saying Kadri has little interest or trade value of other teams coveting him in trade.

If you had a #1C there would be no way you would consider Kadri in a package to deal for him, taking the position of an NHL GM viewpoint.

I don't think Jason Spezza is the answer to this teams problems. Eric Staal would be good, but I personally don't believe Kadri as the centerpiece of a deal gets it done.

That's no knock on Kadri, it's just that I don't see him getting to Staal's level. Kadri to me will be a good number 2 scoring centre. His defensive development will be a huge factor in how far he goes. It's hard for me to see Carolina trading an asset that is highly sought after for a player like Kadri who has serious holes in his game. Yes there might be other pieces involved, but if he's the central piece that iscoming back to be the face of the franchise, I don't see it happening.

 

[The CyNick]

JVR for ROR.

see at least that trade had some merit. Colorado is loaded with centres, and if they see JVR as a stud winger, they might be willing to do something.

 

[thewave]

I think we have two but we need 3 #2 2way type centers to do the job if we are not going to have 2x #1c like a team such as Pits.

Pits pay their top 2cs 17m if we could budget even 3x 5m C we would be in good shape. That's legit #2c and ideally the third is costing 3-4m because they are young.

 

[Trapper]

Would you move JVR for a quality center?

No I would move Kessel instead of JVR. I like JVRs game better, he has the size and a better 2-way game. He drives harder to the net and uses his body to protect the puck better.
JVR-O'Reilly-RW would be much better.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

No I would move Kessel instead of JVR. I like JVRs game better, he has the size and a better 2-way game. He drives harder to the net and uses his body to protect the puck better.
JVR-O'Reilly-RW would be much better.

Indeed. JVR is more valuable then Kessel for his overall game and his contract. And he is younger to. JVR offers you the ability to be dangerous off the rush as well as being able to cycle the puck.

And I might remember things wrong here but did not JVR and Kadri show some really good chemistry when JVR arrived? Or was he on Kessel´s line from the beginning?

 

[Joey Hoser]

And I might remember things wrong here but did not JVR and Kadri show some really good chemistry when JVR arrived? Or was he on Kessel´s line from the beginning?

He played with Grabovski and(I think) Kulemin for a few weeks/months until Lupul got hurt, and he's been with Kessel since. Don't think Kadri and JVR have ever played together other than the odd PP.

I thought for much of this season that at some point we should have tried Kadri with JVR so Lupul could get his mojo back playing with Kessel. If that worked out, I'm sure Lupul would have gained more than JVR would have lost by the switch.

 

[The CyNick]

Yes.

:atomic face palm:

It's so frustrating debating hockey with people who care about fantasy hockey, prediction contests, NHL 14 pools, scoring races for trophies, player agent propaganda, statistical bragging rights, etc.

If putting Bozak on the 2nd line meant more wins than losses would most leaf fans be on board with that? Not here. It's more important to have Bozak get his points.

nobody cares about bozak's points. It's just fair to say that he works on the top line based on his production. That said, if you put someone else there, who gets ten less points, but contributes to us winning 5 more games, then you do it.

Every decision should be about how do we make the team better. Seguin put up more points than Loui Eriksson this year, but the Bruins felt Loui made the team better. That's why they made the trade.

 

[ForSpareParts*]

No, the issue people have here is that you need the #1 center before you plan to move Bozak to the second line, and there are no realistic options available to acquire one at this poitn.

You are the one who thinks this is NHL 14, where all we have to do is trade Kadri + some bits and acquire Getzlaf or some other #1 NHL center.

Everybody wants a legit #1. Stop acting like you're the only one.

Other people are just realistic. You are not.

If trading for a number one C is deemed impossible then you really are living in a fantasy pool (world). I am not at all saying that the price is Kadri, but stop saying that it's vertually impossible. It's not. If pro scouts can do their job properly they can see that potential in what's out there. A team's young 3rd line C is projected to be greater then you do what you can to acquire him. JvR is a good forward and it only cost Luke Schenn to get him. Difficult, but not impossible. Once upon a time the leafs traded for a hall of fame centre. It cost, but it wasn't that great a cost.

 

[The CyNick]

No I would move Kessel instead of JVR. I like JVRs game better, he has the size and a better 2-way game. He drives harder to the net and uses his body to protect the puck better.
JVR-O'Reilly-RW would be much better.

always been interested in what kessel could net us in a trade. Like specific players.

 

[Joey Hoser]

If trading for a number one C is deemed impossible then you really are living in a fantasy pool (world). I am not at all saying that the price is Kadri, but stop saying that it's vertically impossible. It's not. If pro scouts can do their job properly they can see that potential in what's out there. A team's young 3rd line C is projected to be greater then you do what you can to acquire him. JvR is a good forward and it only cost Luke Schenn to get him. Difficult, but not impossible. Once upon a time the leafs traded for a hall of fame centre. It cost, but it wasn't that great a cost.

Here's the top 30 scoring centers in the NHL last year:

Crosby: drafted
Getzlaf: drafted
Girouix: drafted
Seguin: trade
Pavelski: drafted
Backstrom: drafted
Malkin: drafted
Kopitar: drafted
Thornton: trade
Duchene: drafted
Krejci: drafted
Toews: drafted
Tavares: drafted
Spezza: drafted
O'Reilly: drafted
Little: drafted
Johanson: drafted
Mackinnon: drafted
Bergeron: drafted
Staal: drafted
Statsny: drafted
Turris: trade
Filppula: UFA
Nielson: drafted
Backes: drafted
Stepan: drafted
RNH: drafted
Couture: drafted
Hudler: UFA
Koivu: drafted

Seguin and Thornton are the only two legit #1 centers who were acquired via trade, and both were situation where the team had made a purposeful decision to trade them, and they weren't just responding to random offers of random pieces from desperate teams.

Teams don't trade #1 centers for bits and pieces. Doesn't happen.

If you want to trade for somebody elses #3 center and hope they'll improve, why don't you just keep Kadri?

 

[ShaneFalco]

That list is depressing

 

[Kelly]

You're really out to lunch if you think we have a shot at trading for a clear #1C, like I said earlier, we're better off waiting and hoping Kadri can become one, or get lucky and draft our own.