Realignment II: Well, why not, we've got another year to kill

[GKJ]

It's easy to assume that that's what it means, but they're also ambiguous on it. Like I said, that's still not going to fly. That's not a real concession, in fact, it's asking for a specific competitive advantage

Because they already play everyone out there twice and they would really prefer to be in the Eastern Conference if they would continue to play every year out there twice.

The "concession" is that the Red Wings only go out to California once, and Western Canada once. If they're playing the Sharks twice, Kings twice, and Ducks twice in one road trip, they're still only going out to California once.

It's a real concession if you do something drastic to the matrix so that it also applies to all teams in the Central Division.

In the current six-division setup, with Winnipeg flipped with DET/NSH/CLB, and then placing Winnipeg into the Northwest will only increase a grand total of 12 Canadian games. Under the current matrix, WPG would lose the four out-of-division games they currently play with MON/OTT/TOR, and be replaced with four out-of-division games against VAN/CGY/EDM if the Jets were put into the Central. There would be no true net loss nor gain.

Besides. The Jets are the newcomers. There are others that have had legitimate gripes for a decade-plus, specifically Dallas.

The Jets haven't been carrying on with anything. They clearly seem to be basking in their glow of having a team and telling the other owners "let us know what you decide, and we'll do whatever."

 

[MoreOrr]

It's easy to assume that that's what it means, but they're also ambiguous on it. Like I said, that's still not going to fly. That's not a real concession, in fact, it's asking for a specific competitive advantage

How is this "ambiguous"?

"Detroit has offered an interesting concession in all of this: a willingness to stay in the Western Conference if they only have to travel into Western Canada once instead of twice, and they only have to go into California once instead of twice.

It doesn't say 'only travel into the Pacific Time Zone once instead of twice.' It says western Canada and California.

 

[GKJ]

How is this "ambiguous"?


It doesn't say 'only travel into the Pacific Time Zone once instead of twice.' It says western Canada and California.

You can play each team twice and only make one trip to do it.

 

[MoreOrr]

You can play each team twice and only make one trip to do it.

Ahh yes, very good GKJ.

Ah but wait... is travel the real issue though, or is it more the playing time of those games? I'm sure travel may be part of it but not the whole issue.

 

[Grudy0]

Exactly, that's how I interpret it too. But imagine, Detroit wants to reduce the number of games against the Alberta teams too, though they are only 2 TZs away, which is like all the CTZ teams saying they want to reduce the number of games against the PTZ teams... Sounds to me as though it's a "Canadian" issue in that regard, and thus another case of Minnesota (or Colorado) not wanting so many games against Canadian (or western Canadian) teams.

I listened to the Dreger report on the Wyshinski blog. The actual quote from Dreger is:

"Detroit has offered an interesting concession in all of this: a willingness to stay in the Western Conference if they only have to travel into Western Canada once instead of twice, and they only have to go into California and the Deep South once instead of twice."

That to me has the Wings putting a target on both Phoenix's and maybe Colorado's back (I'm stretching it as Deep South), as well.

So the Wings would like to play at:

Edmonton
Calgary
Vancouver
San Jose
Los Angeles
Anaheim
Phoenix
Colorado

Once per season. That's funny. All of those teams are all NHL teams more than one time zone away from Detroit. It looks specifically like Bettman's original proposal of four divisions and home-and-homes outside of your division. Maybe the original proposal was Detroit's idea. If it's shot down, plan B is the simple Detroit for Winnipeg swap.

 

[MoreOrr]

I listened to the Dreger report on the Wyshinski blog. The actual quote from Dreger is:

"Detroit has offered an interesting concession in all of this: a willingness to stay in the Western Conference if they only have to travel into Western Canada once instead of twice, and they only have to go into California and the Deep South once instead of twice."

That to me has the Wings putting a target on both Phoenix's and maybe Colorado's back (I'm stretching it as Deep South), as well.

So the Wings would like to play at:

Edmonton
Calgary
Vancouver
San Jose
Los Angeles
Anaheim
Phoenix
Colorado

Once per season. That's funny. All of those teams are all NHL teams more than one time zone away from Detroit. It looks specifically like Bettman's original proposal of four divisions and home-and-homes outside of your division. Maybe the original proposal was Detroit's idea. If it's shot down, plan B is the simple Detroit for Winnipeg swap.

Ok, that's a bit better in that it's not specifically an anti-western Canada thing. But still, Detroit is talking 2 Time Zones with that request, and that's being way too demanding. As I said, all the CTZ teams then should have a right to request the same thing with respect to playing teams in the PTZ.

... I'm in favor of the League allowing a bit of flexibility, but Detroit is making an unreasonable request, and as such it shouldn't even be considered as a "concession".

 

[squidz*]

Get that correct! It's not a 4-Division setup the League proposed, it's a 4-Division setup that Bettman proposed, and that the League has apparently indicated that it doesn't want.

Bettman is the league. The league proposed the 4-division setup. It appears that certain members of the Board of Governors don't approve of the plan. The league is run by Bettman under the approval of the Board of Governors. It's set up exactly like every other corporation. The BoG is not the league.

 

[MoreOrr]

Bettman is the league. The league proposed the 4-division setup. It appears that certain members of the Board of Governors don't approve of the plan. The league is run by Bettman under the approval of the Board of Governors. It's set up exactly like every other corporation. The BoG is not the league.

Sorry, that's all I can come up with.

 

[GKJ]

Ahh yes, very good GKJ.

Ah but wait... is travel the real issue though, or is it more the playing time of those games? I'm sure travel may be part of it but not the whole issue.

It's not impossible to schedule some games on weekend afternoons and bank holidays. Travel is the bigger issue, no one is feeling bad for the Red Wings over late start times, it's about as bad for everyone else in the Central.

 

[MoreOrr]

It's not impossible to schedule some games on weekends and bank holidays.

Come on, GKJ, you're stretching your argument to the limit in order not to concede. YES, of course, but how many special concessions might one team expect to get. Every team in the League would like some of its games scheduled at better times, and there's at least a whole lot of other Western Conference teams that don't have travel, schedule, and timing of some games so good either.

 

[CBJ goalie]

Bob McKenzie seems adamant that there won't be 4 Canadian teams in one division, and I can't figure out for the life of me why this has already been determined when it actually makes the most sense.

For instance, a Northwest division with VAN, CGY, EDM, WPG and COL makes a lot of sense. It's not a favorable situation for the Avalanche, but they actually have a decent market in Canada.

The NHL will never want 4 Canadian teams in the same division because they know there's a chance some of those teams won't make the playoffs - and the NHL doesn't want to hear any more conspiracy theories about how Canadians teams are set up to not go far in the playoffs.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

The NHL will never want 4 Canadian teams in the same division because they know there's a chance some of those teams won't make the playoffs - and the NHL doesn't want to hear any more conspiracy theories about how Canadians teams are set up to not go far in the playoffs.

So when Quebec City enters the NHL, they'll NOT be with Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal? Come on, we all know that is going to happen sooner or later.

As for the travel notion, I think travel is being used as an excuse. You very simply can schedule it so the Red Wings get all their west games out of the way in one fell swoop. You can schedule as many trips out West (1) as most East teams. Just double up on the games. That even adds some spice to those second games, if something happens in the first.

Baseball has had the two-three-four game series forever. Why not have a two-game set between Detroit and Edmonton at Rexall? Makes sense.

 

[GKJ]

The NHL will never want 4 Canadian teams in the same division because they know there's a chance some of those teams won't make the playoffs - and the NHL doesn't want to hear any more conspiracy theories about how Canadians teams are set up to not go far in the playoffs.

Well, we almost had one division have all 5 teams make the playoffs last season, had Dallas not blown a game vs. Minnesota. Actually, it should allow more Canadian teams to get in.

 

[MoreOrr]

The NHL will never want 4 Canadian teams in the same division because they know there's a chance some of those teams won't make the playoffs - and the NHL doesn't want to hear any more conspiracy theories about how Canadians teams are set up to not go far in the playoffs.

I think it would be the best way of avoiding such conspiracy theories. But why should the League make alignment decisions with any reference to "conspiracy theories" anyway. haha... I figure you're just joking.

The best explanation might be that the League doesn't want to view itself as divided by nationality. Furthermore, all Canadian matchups aren't appealing, it seems, to US audiences, and with Divisional scheduling, and an almost all Canadian Division, you'd get a lot more all-Canadian matchups. So regardless of whether Canadian audiences like those matchups, it wouldn't help, having so many all-Canadian matchup games, in that objective to get a national US TV contract.

And unless there are enough teams to actually complete an All-Canadian Division, there's going to be at least one possibly disgruntled US-based team within the Division. I would hope that such a complaint wouldn't apply to Buffalo and Detroit since they are border cities, but I'm not sure. I would also think that Minnesota (and Seattle whenever it gets a team) wouldn't complain so much since those states border on Canada, but then here we are with Minnesota complaining about the potential of being in an otherwise all-Canadian Division.

 

[GKJ]

Come on, GKJ, you're stretching your argument to the limit in order not to concede. YES, of course, but how many special concessions might one team expect to get. Every team in the League would like some of its games scheduled at better times, and there's at least a whole lot of other Western Conference teams that don't have travel, schedule, and timing of some games so good either.

Is scheduling 2pm PT games more outrageous than only playing each team once because you don't feel like making a second trip out there every year? The Kings do this pretty often later in the season, the Ducks regularly schedule 5pm local games on Sundays, and CBC plans tripleheaders and Sunday afternoon games. Not every game has to start at 10:30 eastern.

 

[Grudy0]

So when Quebec City enters the NHL, they'll NOT be with Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal? Come on, we all know that is going to happen sooner or later.

As for the travel notion, I think travel is being used as an excuse. You very simply can schedule it so the Red Wings get all their west games out of the way in one fell swoop. You can schedule as many trips out West (1) as most East teams. Just double up on the games. That even adds some spice to those second games, if something happens in the first.

Baseball has had the two-three-four game series forever. Why not have a two-game set between Detroit and Edmonton at Rexall? Makes sense.

The problem isn't as much about the travel, per se...

There were 17 out of 30 teams based in the Eastern Time Zone last year. Of those, 15 only had to travel to the Pacific Time Zone for no more than four games and the Mountain Time Zone no more than three. The remaining two Eastern Time Zone teams had to travel to the Mountain and Pacific for 16 games. Imagine what the local television ratings would be if the Penguins, Flyers, Bruins or Islanders had to play 16 games in the Mountain and Pacific Time Zones.

This is specifically the reason why the Maple Leafs left the West. This is specifically the reason why the Red Wings were promised to leave the West.

Any thoughts about Quebec can be addressed when there is another relocation, or even an expansion.

 

[MoreOrr]

So when Quebec City enters the NHL, they'll NOT be with Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal? Come on, we all know that is going to happen sooner or later.

When Quebec City re-enters the League, and it eventually will happen, the realignment should be something like this:

Quebec City, Montreal, Boston, Islanders, Rangers, New Jersey

Ottawa, Toronto, Buffalo, Detroit, Chicago

Or something similar.

 

[MoreOrr]

Is scheduling 2pm PT games more outrageous than only playing each team once because you don't feel like making a second trip out there every year? The Kings do this pretty often later in the season, the Ducks regularly schedule 5pm local games on Sundays, and CBC plans tripleheaders and Sunday afternoon games. Not every game has to start at 10:30 eastern.

I wasn't referring to that particular concession but to the multiple ones that you are suggesting.

 

[GKJ]

I wasn't referring to that particular concession but to the multiple ones that you are suggesting.

I'm not terribly sure it's an actual concession.

 

[MoreOrr]

I'm not terribly sure it's an actual concession.

It's a concession if the League has to give special attention to designing a special schedule format specifically for one team. And again, I think it's a good idea, to a point, but not if the concession involves multiple elements, and elements that most other teams in somewhat similar alignment situations won't get the same concessions for.

 

[optimus2861]

Absolutely. For me, any proposal without Wpg in the Northwest is a non-starter. It makes no sense at all not to have those four clubs in the same division.

It makes perfect sense if one of the desired goals is the elimination of divisions that span three time zones. Of course we don't actually know if this is one of the league's goals at this time.

 

[MoreOrr]

It makes perfect sense if one of the desired goals is the elimination of divisions that span three time zones. Of course we don't actually know if this is one of the league's goals at this time.

No, what would make perfect sense in that regard would be if Vancouver joined the Pacific Division.

 

[optimus2861]

No, what would make perfect sense in that regard would be if Vancouver joined the Pacific Division.

True, I was speaking to the generic point of having the four western Canadian teams together in one division. You can hold the division to two time zones by having VAN+CAL+EDM or CAL+EDM+WPG, plus appropriate American teams, but you can't have VAN+WPG. As I said, we don't know yet if the league wants to fix the time zone situation at this time.

 

[Retail1LO*]

The NHL will never want 4 Canadian teams in the same division because they know there's a chance some of those teams won't make the playoffs - and the NHL doesn't want to hear any more conspiracy theories about how Canadians teams are set up to not go far in the playoffs.

I really think they should go back to a 4 division set up. I've seen some that are really well put together. I also enjoy the divisional playoff format that accompanies it.

However, if they keep the current division structure and are looking for minimal movement, at the very least, if Detroit moves east, I say move Winnipeg into the Northwest so they can be with the other Canadian teams, and move Minnesota to the Central. Fans of Canadian teams love watching games against other Canadian teams. I'm sure it's healthy for both TV ratings, and gate receipts. It's in the leagues best interest to see these teams play one another frequently, just as it is for the Original Six teams to play one another frequently. I have to say, I agree with letting Detroit go east, but it royally screws Chicago. We go from once having a division with Minnesota, Detroit, St. Louis, and Toronto... To one having Nashville, Columbus, St. Louis, and Winnipeg. Losing Detroit would suck. The only silver lining as a Hawks fan, is knowing that we could conceivably meet any of the other Original Six teams in the Cup final...something no other O6 team would be able to do (which I think sucks). If Quebec gets a team, I also would not object to them being in a division with Ottawa, Montreal, and Toronto.

I think any two teams in the league should be able to meet in the final, personally. Being able to see Original Six teams, and Canadian teams be able to battle it out with one another in the playoffs regardless of conference would be exciting. But that's not so much a conversation about realignment as it is restructuring the playoffs themselves.

 

[RandR]

The problem isn't as much about the travel, per se...

There were 17 out of 30 teams based in the Eastern Time Zone last year. Of those, 15 only had to travel to the Pacific Time Zone for no more than four games and the Mountain Time Zone no more than three. The remaining two Eastern Time Zone teams had to travel to the Mountain and Pacific for 16 games. Imagine what the local television ratings would be if the Penguins, Flyers, Bruins or Islanders had to play 16 games in the Mountain and Pacific Time Zones.

This is specifically the reason why the Maple Leafs left the West. This is specifically the reason why the Red Wings were promised to leave the West.

Good points.

The argument that this kind of "concession" would give a competitive advantage to the Wings can be countered by saying that the concession is meant to lessen a competitive disadvantage that the Wings have had to deal with for 20 years now.

And it's not as if all the league doesn't already incorporate some individual team preferences in the schedule. For example, in the current format each team plays each team in the other conference once except for 3 teams twice, and the 6 Canadian teams (before Winnipeg) have always had their extra 3 games against the 3 Canadian teams from the other conference. One could argue whether that gives them a competitive advantage or disadvantage; I think it mostly depends on how good those opponents are each year.

I think the bigger disadvantage the Wings have had over past years has been travelling out West for multiple rounds of playoffs anyways.

In any case, I think the important point about Dreger's news is that it may opens up the possibility of a compromise solution where Detroit stays in the West in exchange for some kind of concession. Of course, the Wings never wanted to go to the West conference in the first place. Apparently they agreed to do so in 1981 only after one of their closest rivals, the Leafs, also agreed to move along with them. I can't find anything about it now, but I had the impression that Harold Ballard got some sort of financial compensation to move the Leafs to the West.

At least the league is looking at compromise solutions. That could include something to appease the Wings to stay in the West. Or perhaps there is something where the Wings do move to the Northeast, where Boston agrees to move to the Atlantic (I think they'd rather be with the NY-area teams, especially the Rangers, anyway), and then Philadelphia (or possibly the Penguins) is conceded some kind of incentive to move to the Southeast.