Realignment II: Well, why not, we've got another year to kill

[mucker*]

I don't know, I guess it's difficult for me to be too sympathetic to Detroit's plight because Chicago is just 300 miles to the west along I-94 and we have those same late night games/multiple road trips. As I'm sure has been mentioned multiple times in these realignment threads, the NHL is so Eastern-centric that's there's always going to be teams that have more travel than others.

I'm also not sure I buy Detroit's concession either. I don't know, it seems kind of bush league to me to have one road trip where you play a team twice on the same trip. You don't see that in any other sport, and it's something I'd expect to see if I was trying to create a schedule in a sim game or something. Unless you split the league north/south instead of east/west, you're always going to have the eastern teams with travel advantages, there's no way around it. Usually, the better team ends up winning anyway.

QFT. Agreed. Detroit is acting like spoiled little babies.
They whine about their arrangement, but that arrangement has helped them be and stay a super power.
If they were in the east, they'd have had a much more competitive and harder conference.
Further, Columbus actually makes more sense in the east, and Detroit, if they got their bottle, would be really doing a diservice to both Chicago and Columbus.

You think it would be fair to have 5 of the original six and another big market in the east?
You don't think leaving Columbus, in the west, without Detroit, as the only EST team makes sense?

You think the NHL, the only sport with no NY and BOS team as division rivals, makes sense to also be the only sport with no DET and CHI division rivalry?

As much as they complain about being in the west, DET's rivals in all sports are Ohio, Chicago, and other Upper Midwest cities.
NOT Toronto or Buffalo. Funny how they leave out that logic.

In the NBA, Det and Chi are in the east, splitting DEt and CHI is a major error.
This is what happens when you have many teams from Canada in the league, deal with it.

I still don't get why Detroit has more of an issue than Columbus, which is also Eastern time zone and is geographically further east.

And Detroit still has more games in its time zone within its division than some other western conference teams. I am not all that sympathetic when nearly 20 percent of the Stars schedule starts in the 9 p.m./9:30 p.m. range local time.

Exactly. Columbus has an even better argument, and really, Det, Columbus, and CHI are all traditional rivals in all sports.

Columbus doesn't have the seniority that Illitch and the Wings have, the ? IS will they allow Dallas to fix their issue of the 9pm CST start time....

So because Detroit has a bigger presence we should do what they please in spite of the larger consequences it presents?

Columbus has no longstanding rivalry and is small market.
Detroit is a big market, with traditional mid western NOT Interior Northeast rivalries.
Them having seniority actually makes more sense for them being west.

Except that Detroit has been promised to move East for over a decade.Learn geography? Dallas in the Pacific Division even though nearer to the Atlantic Ocean?Perhaps you missed this, and it counters EVERY SINGLE POINT you've made:

So what? Detroit never got a promise in writing. Bettman could not actually deliver a promise to Detroit at face value because he does not have the authority.

That would be like the president of the United States promising to lower taxes, he does not have the authority to do so unilaterally.

 

[mucker*]

West already knows it realignment isn't going to be great for them. 4 Pacific, 4 Mountain, 6 Central time zone teams, 16 EST teams.

Detroit and Columbus are in tough. They both play 8 games in the Pacific, 8 in the Mountain, 11 or 12 in the Central. Central time is fine, but 20% of their games begin at 9 or 10pm.

Look at Vancouver, they play 11 games in the MTZ, 11/12 in the Central, 13 in the EST.

Eastern teams only play what up to 9 games outside their time zone? No reason at all for them to complain about anything regarding realignment.

Just do what you can to make life easier for the West. If that means 14 teams in the West, so be it.

No, I disagree.
We shouldn't have unbalanced conferences, with an unfair allotment of big markets and strong teams in the east, just so Det gets their bottle or so Minnesota has fewer 9 PM starts.

The time zone issues cannot be solved this way, it can't.
Some people need to realize that unlike the NBA, the NHL has many more teams in EST since we include Canada teams outside Toronto.
This means that the western conference will have more eastern and central teams, deal with it.

Don't go splitting up DET and CHI, or having a 16 team impossible conference with a 14 team 1-AA conference.

 

[KevFu]

Grafting anyone to the Southeast is a recipe for failure so why not just graft them onto The 10? What real downsides does any of that have in the long run? How to graft them is the hard issue given each team's needs.

You don't have to convince me. I've been touting "Adams/Patrick" in the East for a long time.

• WSH's rivals still are the Atlantic teams and for them it's the most logical place to go.
• CAR can argue that it has bigger rivalries with BOS and BUF than the Southeast as-is due to playoff history and the heavy number of transplants from those areas.
• FLA exists as a welfare case (for transplants and Broward County) so they'd do fine anywhere but the area culturally seems closer to the Atlantic markets than the Northeast.
• TB could do fine anywhere. Problem is do you dare split the Florida teams?

There's no reason to split up TB/FLA. But if they did go to a four-division alignment, you don't have to. You simply divide CAR from TB/FLA. Which isn't a big deal since they're like eight hours apart.

I think my Atlantic+WAS with CBJ/CAR or FLA/TB and Northeast + FLA/TB or CAR/DET ideas are a lot better than, say, the Southeast + NSH/STL/DAL. Who would sign on to that ghetto of a division?

I've been touting the idea that the sudden expansion and Southeast division "segregation" has been damaging to their development as hockey markets for a while now. "Hey, let's put four new teams in a division together, then we'll be surprised when they don't immediately flourish. Is it any surprise that the "best market" of the four noobs started play in the Norris division?

CAR isn't HFD, OR QUE, under the old divisional alignment, just bc of the trends the last few yrs, but where would you have started the divide between an Atlantic and a SE Team, THE ONLY LOGICAL choice was WSH.... THE OPTIONS are likely Detroit, more than Columbus and no way would you see St. Louis or Dallas in a SE Division, and NSH is in CTZ, not ETZ.....

This is why drawing lines on a map is stupid, because the teams are not symmetrical placed on a map.

However, while Carolina isn't Hartford, the numbers pretty much back up that the Southeast teams draw better against old school northern teams like MON, TOR, BOS, NYR, NYI, PHI, than they do against division opponents.

 

[Street Hawk]

No, I disagree.
We shouldn't have unbalanced conferences, with an unfair allotment of big markets and strong teams in the east, just so Det gets their bottle or so Minnesota has fewer 9 PM starts.

The time zone issues cannot be solved this way, it can't.
Some people need to realize that unlike the NBA, the NHL has many more teams in EST since we include Canada teams outside Toronto.
This means that the western conference will have more eastern and central teams, deal with it.

Don't go splitting up DET and CHI, or having a 16 team impossible conference with a 14 team 1-AA conference.

It's actually more like the NBA has more Western teams. Portland, Sacramento, Utah, Houston, San Antonio, OKC, New Orleans.

They have central time zone teams like Cleveland, Chicago, Indiana, and Milwaukee playing in the Eastern Conf.

Just the way the NHL is right now. Unless an Eastern team moves to Seattle/KC/Houston, there will be more Eastern teams than Western teams.

 

[mucker*]

The Great Lakes area is also a huge compact population region, and there's little justification for why Detroit shouldn't be put in a Division with Toronto and Buffalo.



Oh, and just so that you know, there's more separation between "populations" in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh and there is between Philadelphia and Washington, and the same goes for between Montreal and Boston compared to between Boston and New York.


No... Western Conference teams live with it. Eastern Conference teams run and hide from it.

Disagree MoreOrr. Det's traditional rivals in any sport are teams from Ohio, Chicago, and other Upper Midwest cities.
They have no rivalry traditional with Toronto or Western New York.
The Great Lakes area if you go by America 2050 is really a tough region to generalize.
DET fits in most alignments with the midwest, which has CHI and Ohio.
PIT, TOR, BUF generally are considered the interior northeast.

I know it may make sense to have a DET-TOR rivalry, but it makes far more sense to have DET with Ohio, Chicago, and StL.
There has to be a cutoff at some point, and having Toronto with Buffalo, Ottawa, and Montreal makes more sense than having Detroit without Chicago or St. Louis.

And as far as eastern conference teams go, we are tired of hearing western conference teams whine about travel and 9 PM start times.
We in the east have our own challenges, like having more bigger markets, which makes it more competitive.
Many in the east would love it if we had 1-2 big markets in our conference and had a nice 300+ mile exclusive radius for our team.

I think it unfair to put another big market team in the east, and shake up more longstanding, feuding, rivals just so DET can be with TOR and MIN can have fewer 9PM start times.
Give me a break.
If you don't like, complain to England about settling North America in the east first.

 

[mucker*]

It's actually more like the NBA has more Western teams. Portland, Sacramento, Utah, Houston, San Antonio, OKC, New Orleans.

They have central time zone teams like Cleveland, Chicago, Indiana, and Milwaukee playing in the Eastern Conf.

Just the way the NHL is right now. Unless an Eastern team moves to Seattle/KC/Houston, there will be more Eastern teams than Western teams.

Exactly, and the west just has to deal with the hand they were dealt.
There is nothing we can do logically to overcome the concentration of EST clubs in the NHL.

Don't split up more traditional rivalries just to "social engineer" this natural problem.

 

[mucker*]

Is the fact that we may have 4 teams from Canada in a potential NW division really a problem for the Minnesota Wild ?

I could understand that economically, its not the best situation for them, but geographically, its the most obvious choice.
Winnipeg in the NW, Colorado in the SW, Dallas in the Central, and Nashville or Columbus (more likely the latter) in the SE.

Im not used to this debate as much as some are, so, if anyone can explain to me why this cant work...

Yea really, I read that from BMak earlier.
I mean seriously, if you have the NW with:

VAN
EDM
CAL
WIN
COL

What's the big deal? Is having WIN over MIN REALLY going to make that big a difference with COL?
It's not like COL has a close by natural rival (the closest market is PHO).
COL is not within 12 hours of the nearest division rival, I highly doubt that being in a division with 4 far out Canada teams will make a difference as opposed to being a division with 3 far out Canada teams and 1 distant, small, market, US team.

Anybody else follow?

 

[mucker*]

Really here is what makes most sense:

A.
1) WIN to the NW
2) NSH to the SE
3) MIN to the C

OR

B.
1) WIN to the NW
2) NSH to the SE
3) VAN to the Pacific
4) DAL to the C
5*** Pray that PHO moves to Seattle

1) This alignment, B, would put Nashville in the logical SE, and being a CST, one hour off would not be a big deal.
2) MIN now has a nearby (relative) team in Win, with the same CST. Hey, I'd like MIN to be with CHI, but this is better than the NBA where MIN is completely cutoff.
3) DAL finally gets a better time zone
4) VAN get PCT

The only downside is VAN no longer being with EDM and CAL, BUT if PHO goes to Seattle, they get that, and much better travel.
Current rivalries are not disturbed.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Really here is what makes most sense:

A.
1) WIN to the NW
2) NSH to the SE
3) MIN to the C

OR

B.
1) WIN to the NW
2) NSH to the SE
3) VAN to the Pacific
4) DAL to the C
5*** Pray that PHO moves to Seattle

1) This alignment, B, would put Nashville in the logical SE, and being a CST, one hour off would not be a big deal.
2) MIN now has a nearby (relative) team in Win, with the same CST. Hey, I'd like MIN to be with CHI, but this is better than the NBA where MIN is completely cutoff.
3) DAL finally gets a better time zone
4) VAN get PCT

The only downside is VAN no longer being with EDM and CAL, BUT if PHO goes to Seattle, they get that, and much better travel.
Current rivalries are not disturbed.

A won't work as the simplest solution because they likely will not want to hang Colorado out to dry as the only American team in a division full of Canadian teams.

I think it'll end up being moving Detroit east and putting Winnipeg in the central and that's it.

 

[MoreOrr]

Is there something wrong with it?
I don't understand why that is such problem.
Kinda like complaining that Canada is cold and snowy in the winter.

I mean, should we simply ignore Geography and population distribution, ignore 400 years off history, just to please isolated, 2nd tier western markets?

Not necessarily that. Though it is a League, so wouldn't one think that all parts of the League have a degree of equality?

But better yet, shouldn't that focal point of the League be shared between the two Conferences? Why put all of the balance of power, population center, orginal heartland, all in one Conference? That to me is the main point. Both Conferences should have a piece of that pie.

 

[MoreOrr]

West already knows it realignment isn't going to be great for them. 4 Pacific, 4 Mountain, 6 Central time zone teams, 16 EST teams.

Detroit and Columbus are in tough. They both play 8 games in the Pacific, 8 in the Mountain, 11 or 12 in the Central. Central time is fine, but 20% of their games begin at 9 or 10pm.

Look at Vancouver, they play 11 games in the MTZ, 11/12 in the Central, 13 in the EST.

Eastern teams only play what up to 9 games outside their time zone? No reason at all for them to complain about anything regarding realignment.

Just do what you can to make life easier for the West. If that means 14 teams in the West, so be it.

Oh, but if you're the East or a fan of a team in the East, who gives a damn about the West.

 

[MoreOrr]

Disagree MoreOrr. Det's traditional rivals in any sport are teams from Ohio, Chicago, and other Upper Midwest cities.
They have no rivalry traditional with Toronto or Western New York.
The Great Lakes area if you go by America 2050 is really a tough region to generalize.
DET fits in most alignments with the midwest, which has CHI and Ohio.
PIT, TOR, BUF generally are considered the interior northeast.

I know it may make sense to have a DET-TOR rivalry, but it makes far more sense to have DET with Ohio, Chicago, and StL.
There has to be a cutoff at some point, and having Toronto with Buffalo, Ottawa, and Montreal makes more sense than having Detroit without Chicago or St. Louis.

And as far as eastern conference teams go, we are tired of hearing western conference teams whine about travel and 9 PM start times.
We in the east have our own challenges, like having more bigger markets, which makes it more competitive.
Many in the east would love it if we had 1-2 big markets in our conference and had a nice 300+ mile exclusive radius for our team.

I think it unfair to put another big market team in the east, and shake up more longstanding, feuding, rivals just so DET can be with TOR and MIN can have fewer 9PM start times.
Give me a break.
If you don't like, complain to England about settling North America in the east first.

You keep talking about other sports, but what does that have to do with hockey. Different Leagues, different histories, different rivalries.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Wings-Leafs has always been a huge rivalry. So has Chi-tor.

Chi tor det buf ottawa would be sick.

 

[MoreOrr]

Exactly, and the west just has to deal with the hand they were dealt.
There is nothing we can do logically to overcome the concentration of EST clubs in the NHL.

Don't split up more traditional rivalries just to "social engineer" this natural problem.

The hand the West was dealt was dealt to them by the power centered East. The League could just as easily have decided to share that power between two Conferences and not keep it all in the "East".

 

[Cynicaps]

CAR isn't HFD, OR QUE

CAR does have rivalries with BOS and BUF, fed in part by fans and heavy amounts of transplants from those areas, that trump any of the other Southeast teams. If any Southeast team should be in the Northeast, theoretically it's them.

 

[MoreOrr]

CAR does have rivalries with BOS and BUF, fed in part by fans and heavy amounts of transplants from those areas, that trump any of the other Southeast teams. If any Southeast team should be in the Northeast, theoretically it's them.

Also against New Jersey. So put Carolina in with New Jersey.

 

[mucker*]

A won't work as the simplest solution because they likely will not want to hang Colorado out to dry as the only American team in a division full of Canadian teams.

I think it'll end up being moving Detroit east and putting Winnipeg in the central and that's it.

Which makes no sense. How is Colorado being held out to dry anymore than now?
Right now their rivals are 3 Canada teams+1 distant, small market, low key Minnesota team.
How is Winnipeg over Minnesota really going to make a big deal?

Colorado, until they get moved to the Pacific, is going to mis-aligned. I don't see why Minnesota v Winnipeg is a big deal, because Minnesota and Denver are such hated traditional, nearby rivals!

 

[mucker*]

Not necessarily that. Though it is a League, so wouldn't one think that all parts of the League have a degree of equality?

But better yet, shouldn't that focal point of the League be shared between the two Conferences? Why put all of the balance of power, population center, orginal heartland, all in one Conference? That to me is the main point. Both Conferences should have a piece of that pie.

Exactly, so why put another big, original six, powerhouse in the East in Detroit?
Why not trade an equally small market (Nashville or Columbus) and preserve the DET-CHI rivalry?

Exactly.

Oh, but if you're the East or a fan of a team in the East, who gives a damn about the West.

No, I am fan of the East (as most are, the split is 65/70 East as is the pipulation).
Why wreck and make illogical divisions that ignore traditional rivals and regions just so some small market west team has 5 fewer 9 PM starts?

You keep talking about other sports, but what does that have to do with hockey. Different Leagues, different histories, different rivalries.

You said DET should be with great lake rivals. I was bringing up how DET's rivals in hockey, aside from TOR, already are set with CHI and STL, and how this the same in every sport.

DET if it had to choose fits more with OHIO and CHI teams.
The NHL already messed up no NY-BOS, don't do it to DET.

The hand the West was dealt was dealt to them by the power centered East. The League could just as easily have decided to share that power between two Conferences and not keep it all in the "East".

How, by separating NY/NJ and PHI and PIT/PHI so those poor western markets have fewer 9 PM starts?

Come on, it is what is. The NHL has many more EST teams, and as result, the west will have more travel, but they also will have less competition.
Don't mess up traditional rivals anymore, ANYMORE, for 8 PM starts.

Wings-Leafs has always been a huge rivalry. So has Chi-tor.

Chi tor det buf ottawa would be sick.

Yes, but that hangs STL out to dry.

Frankly, DET whines about their time and wants to go east, they are completely leaving CHI and COLUMBUS out to dry.

 

[MoreOrr]

Exactly, so why put another big, original six, powerhouse in the East in Detroit?
Why not trade an equally small market (Nashville or Columbus) and preserve the DET-CHI rivalry?

Exactly.

Exactly!!

No, I am fan of the East (as most are, the split is 65/70 East as is the pipulation).
Why wreck and make illogical divisions that ignore traditional rivals and regions just so some small market west team has 5 fewer 9 PM starts?

It all depends too on what one considers to be "illogical".

You said DET should be with great lake rivals. I was bringing up how DET's rivals in hockey, aside from TOR, already are set with CHI and STL, and how this the same in every sport.

DET if it had to choose fits more with OHIO and CHI teams.
The NHL already messed up no NY-BOS, don't do it to DET.

No, I was applying your reasoning that close population centers shouldn't be separated.
And I agreed that using that reasoning then Boston should be with New York more than with Montreal. And I added that Washington was closer to Philadelphia than Pittsburgh, as part of the huge megalopolis Boston-Washington.
Using the population map, one could say that there's another signficant population string that stretches from Buffalo to Toronto and then down to Detroit, across to Cleveland-Akron, and then across to Pittsburgh.
Definitely there is more or less open space between Boston and the Canadian side, between NYC and Buffalo, and between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

How, by separating NY/NJ and PHI and PIT/PHI so those poor western markets have fewer 9 PM starts?

Those teams are almost never suggested to be separated because of "western teams". I don't know why you keep saying that, other than that you don't have a stronger argument, though that's not a valid argument. Any separation that's suggested for those teams is to fit a Detroit or Columbus in in the East. That has nothing to do with Western alignment. No matter how the Northwest is aligned, or whether Dallas ends up in the Central, has almost nothing to do with Eastern alignment.

But back to my point... sharing that population center (the northeast in general) between the two Conferences... Why can't the Northeast Division be put in one Conference and the Atlantic in the other? And The Northwest Division in one Conference, and the Pacific in the other? That's a generalization of the idea I'm suggesting, but then both Conferences get part of the population power.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Which makes no sense. How is Colorado being held out to dry anymore than now?
Right now their rivals are 3 Canada teams+1 distant, small market, low key Minnesota team.
How is Winnipeg over Minnesota really going to make a big deal?

Colorado, until they get moved to the Pacific, is going to mis-aligned. I don't see why Minnesota v Winnipeg is a big deal, because Minnesota and Denver are such hated traditional, nearby rivals!

But you're talking about doing as little as possible to get the most votes. Colorado isn't going to vote to have four Canadian teams in their division. Minnesota, although not a traditional rival, is still better for them than Winnipeg.

 

[boredmale]

I know the NHL wouldn't do this but in fairness to all teams divide the league into the north and south

North

D1 - Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Minnesota

D2 - Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Chicago, Detroit

D3 - Buffalo, Boston, Islander, Rangers, Devils

South

D1 - Columbus, Philly, Pittsburgh, Washington, Carolina

D2 - Nashville, Tampa, Florida, St Louis, Dallas

D3 - LA, Anaheim, San Jose, Colorado, Phoenix

 

[MoreOrr]

Hochuli, why don't you use this map to make your population centers based Divisions:

 

[MoreOrr]

I know the NHL wouldn't do this but in fairness to all teams divide the league into the north and south

North

D1 - Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Minnesota

D2 - Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Chicago, Detroit

D3 - Buffalo, Boston, Islander, Rangers, Devils

South

D1 - Columbus, Philly, Pittsburgh, Washington, Carolina

D2 - Nashville, Tampa, Florida, St Louis, Dallas

D3 - LA, Anaheim, San Jose, Colorado, Phoenix

Switch D2 in the North with D1 in the South and then you might have something. No point in creating a strict North-South split in which you ultimately end up with another version of what exists now... teams in the South that want to be in the North.
And that way you don't have all the Canadian teams in one Conference, don't have all the original six teams in one Conference, and don't have essentially all the hockey heartland cities in one Conference.

 

[MoreOrr]

Using that map, and putting one of those huge Atlantic and Great Lakes megaregions in both Conferences:

NORRIS Conference
Border Division
Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Buffalo, Detroit
Central Division
Pittsburgh, Columbus, Chicago, St Louis, Minnesota
Northwest Division
Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, San Jose

ADAMS Conference
Atlantic Division
Boston, Islanders, Rangers, Devils, Philadelphia
Southeast Division
Washington, Carolina, Florida, Tampa Bay, Nashville
Southwest Division
Dallas, Colorado, Phoenix, Anaheim, Los Angeles

I DON'T like that the Canadian teams are all in one Conference.
But there is a potential for an all New York State Final, or an all Pennsylvania State Final, or an all California Final.
Winnipeg and Dallas are stuck in 3 Time Zone Divisions, but Winnipeg would probably be fine with that in order to be in with the other western Canadian teams. And as for Dallas, the alignment is improved with the exchange of San Jose for Colorado in that now "Southwestern Division". Oh, and Minnesota has escaped from the Northwest, but replaced by San Jose as a PTZ partner for Vancouver.
And both Conferences only have 2 PTZ teams and 2 MTZ teams.

 

[Crayton]

And then we come back to splitting the Northeast region and Original Six:

West+Midwest, for the playoffs, East+South (season schedule up for debate)