Ray Shero

[Jason MacIsaac]

I don't see the controversy here, his shelf life expired in Pittsburgh and he went elsewhere where he may do just as well or better.

Many say JR left Carolina in shambles but that doesn't mean much to Pens fans right now.

Thank you.

 

[Beau Knows]

As I said, Shero's two biggest issues were MAF and Bylsma. Just after the lockout Pittsburgh having two elite superstars really hindered their ability to gather depth until the cap moved up towards the end of their deals. The past is the past, no Devils fan cares what most Pittsburgh fans feel of Shero because it is covered in bias.

They couldn't get any depth because he handed out terrible contracts to over the hill players: Duipuis, Scuds and Kunitz. He also refused to utilize his young players who would have given them cap room with their entry level deals.

 

[Zero Pucks]

I don't see the controversy here, his shelf life expired in Pittsburgh and he went elsewhere where he may do just as well or better.

Many say JR left Carolina in shambles but that doesn't mean much to Pens fans right now.

JR deserves his share of criticism for what he did in Carolina. That's why most of us (admittedly myself) were pretty skeptical about bringing him in. Shero could turn the Devils into a cup contender every season and I won't care. What I do care about is Shero had an opportunity to build one of the best teams the Penguins would ever see. Instead he turned it into some of the most excruciating eye-bleeding hockey I've ever seen.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

What if Murray posted a .860 sv% in the first two rounds. In 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13...What if Fleury had a .920 sv%, they win all those first round matchups. They were the favorite all those playoff series. How would Shero be looked at?

What about when Vokoun played lights out in 2013 when DB was still the coach and Boston **** all over his system?

Their downfall, again was that they had a painfully slow team made even slower by Shero's acquisitions at the deadline, DB unflinching devotion to his system and no fwds outside of Crosby and Malkin that could generate their own offense. Well there was Iggy, who was being played on LW by Bylsma...

What about '14 when MAF had a .915 sv% and another Bylsma lead team blew a 3-1 lead to the Rangers? DB inability to adapt, a fwd group that had no one that could generate offense on their own outside of their two generational stars, was once again their downfall.

The pattern was always the same due to a poor philosophy by Shero, mismanagement of the roster, blind loyalty to old, slow vets, and a coach that had an asinine system and who was more interested in having coffee with Craig Adams, than creating a culture of accountability.

Keep telling yourself Shero's philosophy and poor judgement had nothing to do with any of this. It's amusing, to say the least.

 

[Jacob]

By far his greatest failure was the amount of leash he gave Bylsma. A Cup win & a Jack Adams earns anyone a lot of leeway, but after the 2012 debacle most competent GMs would have made a change. The rest would've made a change after 2013, but not Shero.

His previous jobs were in Nashville & Ottawa, so I think he picked up the habit of being loyal to your coach, to a fault.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

IIRC, only 4 players on the 2009 SC team were drafted/acquired prior to Shero taking over.

That was obviously Shero's team and to say otherwise is just blind hatred and ignorance.

Are you sure you even followed that 2009 team? For a supposed Penguins fan you sure seem to have a foggy recollection of the roster.

Crosby (1C)
Malkin (2C)
Letang
Goligoski
Gonchar (1D)
Fleury (1G)
Talbot
Kennedy
Orpik (2D)
Scuderi

The two generational stars, the top pairing (Gonchar/Orpik), the starting goalie, and a bunch of the depth guys were drafted or signed prior to Shero coming on. So yep, good call on only 4 players being drafted or acquired prior to Shero. Not the whole friggin' core.

 

[SEALBound]

To me, there are two Sheros. Pre Cup and Post Cup. Pre Cup Shero make solid deals and signings and ultimately tweaked the line up well enough to win the Cup in 2009. After that, it was a different Shero. Nothing but garbage bottom 6'ers that were never impact players, countless picks out the door for non impact TDL players, loyalty to a coach that was not getting it done, and he built a culture of "Sid and Geno can make due with less" that justified him spending more on other areas. This didn't allow the team to play to it's strengths one iota.

His drafting philosophy was poor and his eye for talent in the first round was bunk.

Hopefully he's learned from his 6 years of mistakes. Oddly, after what - a couple weeks as Devils GM, he bring in Palmieri. Had he done that in Pittsburgh to begin with, he may have kept his job lol.

Poor drafting, poor roster building, poor coaching decisions, poor signings, meh trades (some good, A LOT bad)...after the Cup, Shero was garbage for Pittsburgh. I wish NJ luck.

 

[HBK27]

He missed a few while in Pittsburgh, hence the criticism. Won't change the mind of certain Devils fans, though. He's The Pope in their eyes.

I'm a Devils fan and I honestly don't care what Shero did or how he was viewed in Pittsburgh. I only care about what he does in NJ, and one year in I've been really happy with the job he's done so far. I don't know what or why it would be any concern to change Devils fans' minds on Shero.

I am a bit surprised by some of the venom against him. It's not easy to win in this league. Washington, St. Louis, San Jose are all examples of this. Even the stacked Devils teams in the 90's (with HOF's Lamoriello, Stevens, Brodeur & Niedermayer) struggled with this for a stretch - winning just one playoff series over a 4 year stretch from '96-'99 sandwhiched by Cup wins. That Shero had a part in Pittsburgh winning 2 Cups and having 3 Finals appearances over a 9 year stretch in a 30 team capped league means he didn't do all THAT bad.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I am a bit surprised by some of the venom against him. It's not easy to win in this league. Washington, St. Louis, San Jose are all examples of this. Even the stacked Devils teams in the 90's (with HOF's Lamoriello, Stevens, Brodeur & Niedermayer) struggled with this for a stretch - winning just one playoff series over a 4 year stretch from '96-'99 sandwhiched by Cup wins. That Shero had a part in Pittsburgh winning 2 Cups and having 3 Finals appearances over a 9 year stretch in a 30 team capped league means he didn't do all THAT bad.

The bolded is the part non-Pens fans don't seem to get when we explain it. We're not disappointed in Shero because he didn't build a Cup winner each and every season. Of course you can't be expected to win it every year, or even necessarily go far every year.

The issue we have is that, post 2009 Cup win, he didn't put the team in a position to even be a legitimate Cup threat. Sometime after he won the Cup, he got lazy. He refused to make obvious changes that needed changing, and he didn't do enough to build around your organization's strengths (ie. Sid and Geno).

Devils fans saying they're happy with his first year. Cool. But you should probably wait to see how he addresses your organizations weaknesses before you feel too comfortable with him running your club. The Devils were the lowest scoring team in hockey last year. The Devils also don't have a high end #1C. So let's see how he addresses those issues going forward. Then you can judge the job he's done.

 

[HBK27]

The bolded is the part non-Pens fans don't seem to get when we explain it. We're not disappointed in Shero because he didn't build a Cup winner each and every season. Of course you can't be expected to win it every year, or even necessarily go far every year.

The issue we have is that, post 2009 Cup win, he didn't put the team in a position to even be a legitimate Cup threat. Sometime after he won the Cup, he got lazy. He refused to make obvious changes that needed changing, and he didn't do enough to build around your organization's strengths (ie. Sid and Geno).

Devils fans saying they're happy with his first year. Cool. But you should probably wait to see how he addresses your organizations weaknesses before you feel too comfortable with him running your club. The Devils were the lowest scoring team in hockey last year. The Devils also don't have a high end #1C. So let's see how he addresses those issues going forward. Then you can judge the job he's done.

In the five seasons following the 2009 Cup win, the Penguins averaged 109.4 points per season (pro-rating the lockout shortened season). Even in the loser point adjusted era, that is pretty damn good. That you could say they were not a “legitimate Cup threat†during that time is laughable.

In the end though, they didn’t win again and that is what justifiably cost Shero his job. I’m not going to argue any specific points on what Shero did or didn’t do, as I’m nowhere near as knowledgeable as Penguins fans. I’m just saying that some of the fans claiming what an “awful†just he did appear to be off base. That he won a championship with Pittsburgh…came damn close to winning two…and left enough still in the cupboard for his successor to win a Cup very quickly (after years of making deals in a “win now†atmosphere), makes me think it wasn’t all that bad.

And for all the Pittsburgh fans claiming “just wait until he starts screwing stuff up in NJ…†just stop already. 95+% of GM’s and coaches in sports are eventually fired, so we’re not expected a Lamoriello-like run from him. Yeah, he’ll eventually start making some moves that backfire or we’re not happy with – all GM’s do. I am very comfortable with him running the club RIGHT NOW. It’s annoying to hear other fan bases claim how the GM/Coach/Player that they liked and one point and they soured on will surely suck for the new team soon enough…you just wait and see! I liked Pete DeBoer as a coach in NJ for several seasons, until I didn’t – you think San Jose fans want to hear me or any other Devils fans say “give it a couple of years and he won’t play the kids, the team will tune him out, etc.� No. And quite honestly, Shero…DeBoer…whoever is in a completely different situation now and has surely learned something from past failures, otherwise you won’t last long in this league repeating the same mistakes.

 

[Dying Alive]

In the five seasons following the 2009 Cup win, the Penguins averaged 109.4 points per season (pro-rating the lockout shortened season). Even in the loser point adjusted era, that is pretty damn good. That you could say they were not a “legitimate Cup threat” during that time is laughable.

In the end though, they didn’t win again and that is what justifiably cost Shero his job. I’m not going to argue any specific points on what Shero did or didn’t do, as I’m nowhere near as knowledgeable as Penguins fans. I’m just saying that some of the fans claiming what an “awful” just he did appear to be off base. That he won a championship with Pittsburgh…came damn close to winning two…and left enough still in the cupboard for his successor to win a Cup very quickly (after years of making deals in a “win now” atmosphere), makes me think it wasn’t all that bad.

And for all the Pittsburgh fans claiming “just wait until he starts screwing stuff up in NJ…” just stop already. 95+% of GM’s and coaches in sports are eventually fired, so we’re not expected a Lamoriello-like run from him. Yeah, he’ll eventually start making some moves that backfire or we’re not happy with – all GM’s do. I am very comfortable with him running the club RIGHT NOW. It’s annoying to hear other fan bases claim how the GM/Coach/Player that they liked and one point and they soured on will surely suck for the new team soon enough…you just wait and see! I liked Pete DeBoer as a coach in NJ for several seasons, until I didn’t – you think San Jose fans want to hear me or any other Devils fans say “give it a couple of years and he won’t play the kids, the team will tune him out, etc.”? No. And quite honestly, Shero…DeBoer…whoever is in a completely different situation now and has surely learned something from past failures, otherwise you won’t last long in this league repeating the same mistakes.

They really weren't, though. They went through the regular seasons on the backs of Crosby, Malkin, and to a degree Letang and Fleury. There was little to no secondary scoring. And then when the playoffs started and things tightened up (more coverage on Sid/Geno, fewer power play opportunities, etc.) there was no secondary scoring to speak of because the bottom six was littered with garbage. I mean, when Brandon Sutter is your biggest offensive threat on the bottom two lines, you've got a problem.

Pens fans have been pretty honest for years in saying that they haven't been contenders, even when others have seen them as favorites. We saw the same thing happen every year. Look back at the Pens forum any year from around 2010-2014 and you'll see the same complaints about the team, about Shero doing nothing to address it and about Bylsma doing nothing to adjust (which in the end falls on the shoulders of Shero as well for keeping Bylsma around as long as he did). The regular season was never the problem for the Pens, but they were a team built to fail in the playoffs.

I would say we're well aware of how it feels to have fans of other teams crapping on your GM. Rutherford gets a lot of abuse around here, some of it justified, some of it not. Who cares though? He just built a Cup winner here. If NJ fans happy with Shero, who cares what Pens fans think?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

In the five seasons following the 2009 Cup win, the Penguins averaged 109.4 points per season (pro-rating the lockout shortened season). Even in the loser point adjusted era, that is pretty damn good. That you could say they were not a “legitimate Cup threat” during that time is laughable.

The same holes in the lineup showed up each and every post season, yet Shero did nothing to address them.

The Pens from 2010 to 2014 were the definition of a paper tiger. Teams that finished in the top four of the conference in the regular season, thanks in large part to heroic efforts from their superstars, but who failed in the playoffs for pretty much the exact same, foreseeable reason.

In the end though, they didn’t win again and that is what justifiably cost Shero his job. I’m not going to argue any specific points on what Shero did or didn’t do, as I’m nowhere near as knowledgeable as Penguins fans. I’m just saying that some of the fans claiming what an “awful” just he did appear to be off base. That he won a championship with Pittsburgh…came damn close to winning two…and left enough still in the cupboard for his successor to win a Cup very quickly (after years of making deals in a “win now” atmosphere), makes me think it wasn’t all that bad.

The bolded is exactly what you're doing above, despite the numerous Pens fans outlining what was wrong with Shero's approach despite the 100 point regular seasons masking the obvious flaws in the roster.

And for all the Pittsburgh fans claiming “just wait until he starts screwing stuff up in NJ…” just stop already. 95+% of GM’s and coaches in sports are eventually fired, so we’re not expected a Lamoriello-like run from him. Yeah, he’ll eventually start making some moves that backfire or we’re not happy with – all GM’s do. I am very comfortable with him running the club RIGHT NOW. It’s annoying to hear other fan bases claim how the GM/Coach/Player that they liked and one point and they soured on will surely suck for the new team soon enough…you just wait and see! I liked Pete DeBoer as a coach in NJ for several seasons, until I didn’t – you think San Jose fans want to hear me or any other Devils fans say “give it a couple of years and he won’t play the kids, the team will tune him out, etc.”? No. And quite honestly, Shero…DeBoer…whoever is in a completely different situation now and has surely learned something from past failures, otherwise you won’t last long in this league repeating the same mistakes.

No, I said you should withhold judgment until you see how he does. I'm simply saying WAIT until he actually addresses your team's weaknesses before saying he's doing a good job.

I see it similar to the Rutherford situation. Carolina fans didn't like the job he did for the last few years of his tenure despite him winning them a Cup. And they're completely justified in that dislike.

Can Shero turn things around in New Jersey like Rutherford did in Pittsburgh after a rather poor final handful of seasons with his previous team? Time will tell.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

In the five seasons following the 2009 Cup win, the Penguins averaged 109.4 points per season (pro-rating the lockout shortened season). Even in the loser point adjusted era, that is pretty damn good. That you could say they were not a “legitimate Cup threat†during that time is laughable.

In the end though, they didn’t win again and that is what justifiably cost Shero his job. I’m not going to argue any specific points on what Shero did or didn’t do, as I’m nowhere near as knowledgeable as Penguins fans. I’m just saying that some of the fans claiming what an “awful†just he did appear to be off base. That he won a championship with Pittsburgh…came damn close to winning two…and left enough still in the cupboard for his successor to win a Cup very quickly (after years of making deals in a “win now†atmosphere), makes me think it wasn’t all that bad.

And for all the Pittsburgh fans claiming “just wait until he starts screwing stuff up in NJ…†just stop already. 95+% of GM’s and coaches in sports are eventually fired, so we’re not expected a Lamoriello-like run from him. Yeah, he’ll eventually start making some moves that backfire or we’re not happy with – all GM’s do. I am very comfortable with him running the club RIGHT NOW. It’s annoying to hear other fan bases claim how the GM/Coach/Player that they liked and one point and they soured on will surely suck for the new team soon enough…you just wait and see! I liked Pete DeBoer as a coach in NJ for several seasons, until I didn’t – you think San Jose fans want to hear me or any other Devils fans say “give it a couple of years and he won’t play the kids, the team will tune him out, etc.� No. And quite honestly, Shero…DeBoer…whoever is in a completely different situation now and has surely learned something from past failures, otherwise you won’t last long in this league repeating the same mistakes.

Again, if Pens fans want to be angry at Shero, it's their choice. It has no bearing on anything, really.

However, as you admit, most Devils fans have no real grasp of how badly Shero **** the bed after '09.

It wasn't just that the Pens lost, it's that they lost in embarrassing fashion every single playoffs. Shero's last four playoff teams included:

- blowing a 3-1 lead to TB
- the most ridiculous, undisciplined clown show in Pens playoff history agt Philly
- getting swept by Boston and scoring two goals... two.
- blowing another 3-1 lead to the NYR

Not only did Shero have a bad philosophy for building around Malkin and Crosby, he let entitled vets hang around way too long, and went crazy, literally in 2013, extending Bylsma, Dupuis, Kunitz and Adams (2 year contract for the worst player in the league) and he signed back Scuds.

Bylsma should have been gone after the Philly debacle, but he was kept around to embarrass the org for another two playoff seasons. How any GM in his right mind had the stones to extend Bylsma at that point was truly mind boggling.

Ya, Shero left some good pieces behind that helped win this latest cup, but make no mistake, JR did yeomans work cleaning up Shero's mess to make it even be possible.

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

Again, if Pens fans want to be angry at Shero, it's their choice. It has no bearing on anything, really.

However, as you admit, most Devils fans have no real grasp of how badly Shero **** the bed after '09.

It wasn't just that the Pens lost, it's that they lost in embarrassing fashion every single playoffs. Shero's last four playoff teams included:

- blowing a 3-1 lead to TB
- the most ridiculous, undisciplined clown show in Pens playoff history agt Philly
- getting swept by Boston and scoring two goals... two.
- blowing another 3-1 lead to the NYR

Not only did Shero have a bad philosophy for building around Malkin and Crosby, he let entitled vets hang around way too long, and went crazy, literally in 2013, extending Bylsma, Dupuis, Kunitz and Adams (2 year contract for the worst player in the league) and he signed back Scuds.

Bylsma should have been gone after the Philly debacle, but he was kept around to embarrass the org for another two playoff seasons. How any GM in his right mind had the stones to extend Bylsma at that point was truly mind boggling.

Ya, Shero left some good pieces behind that helped win this latest cup, but make no mistake, JR did yeomans work cleaning up Shero's mess to make it even be possible.

How is any of that even remotely on Shero?

1) TB series they were without Sid and Geno. Yet they were still favored. Don't forget a few months prior to that series he acquired Neal and Niskanen, and Kovy.
2) Pens were favored against philly
3) Pens outplayed the B's in 2 of the 4 games. They got plenty of scoring chances and shots. Not to mention this team's roster was one of the most stacked rosters in the post lock out era. If anything 2013 is an impressive accomplishment for Shero and a bad look for Bylsma.
4) Pens were favored and blew a 3-1 lead. how is that on Shero?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

How is any of that even remotely on Shero?

1) TB series they were without Sid and Geno. Yet they were still favored. Don't forget a few months prior to that series he acquired Neal and Niskanen, and Kovy.
2) Pens were favored against philly
3) Pens outplayed the B's in 2 of the 4 games. They got plenty of scoring chances and shots. Not to mention this team's roster was one of the most stacked rosters in the post lock out era. If anything 2013 is an impressive accomplishment for Shero and a bad look for Bylsma.
4) Pens were favored and blew a 3-1 lead. how is that on Shero?

How is it on the GM that kept the coach around that never showed any signs of growth, never adjusted his system, and kept losing in the playoffs in embarrassing fashion each and every year?

Golly, I dunno...

 

[The Shovel Penguin]

Shero could do well for the Devils -- if he learns from his mistakes and shows willingness to change when something isn't working. That was his downfall with the Pens. Only time will tell going forward.

How long he kept Bylsma around was what made me want to tear my hair out the most.

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

How is it on the GM that kept the coach around that never showed any signs of growth, never adjusted his system, and kept losing in the playoffs in embarrassing fashion each and every year?

Golly, I dunno...

I won't fault anyone for being sour on DB due to his playoff struggles, but he did win coach of the year in 2011 and the Pens were consistently one of the best teams under DB's tenure.

It would be hard to justify firing him in 2012 one year removed from a Jack Adams trophy, and even harder to justify firing him in 2013 after a trip to the ECF.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I won't fault anyone for being sour on DB due to his playoff struggles, but he did win coach of the year in 2011 and the Pens were consistently one of the best teams under DB's tenure.

It would be hard to justify firing him in 2012 one year removed from a Jack Adams trophy, and even harder to justify firing him in 2013 after a trip to the ECF.

Ya man, sorry but that excuse doesn't fly. The Flames just fired Hartley less than a year after he won the Adams.

Any GM worth his salt could see that Bylsma lost his team during the Flyers series.

Bylsma sat at the podium stunned and incoherent after the Bruins series. He had no answers, as always.

Shero then decided that this huge puddle of incoherence sitting at the podium was his man... the guy who deserved an extension to continue embarrassing the org.

I guess you could use the insanity defense for Shero, because he truly lost his mind in the spring and summer of 2013 and made a complete mess of the org. JR thankfully came in and performed a few miracles and cleaned up the **** pile Shero left behind.

 

[HBK27]

No, I said you should withhold judgment until you see how he does. I'm simply saying WAIT until he actually addresses your team's weaknesses before saying he's doing a good job.

Withhold judgement?

No. What the hell is the point of that? I can judge him now and that opinion can change as time goes on.

One year in, that opinion is rather favorable. We'll see how things are a year from now...or even after the draft and start of free agency.

The Devils main weakness was that they were an old team that couldn't score. Trading for Palmieri, DSP, signing Stempniak, drafting Zacha, waiving Zubrus were all steps in the right direction to address this.

Like I said earlier, just about every GM & coach in sports eventually gets fired which means that fans will most likely turn on them. I'm sure you don't want to hear that about Rutherford or Sullivan, but it's probably true. Same for Shero, so don't act like you're Nostradamus if he doesn't deliver a Cup to NJ over the next few years or Devils fans aren't 100% happy with his moves.

 

[BHD]

As I said, Shero's two biggest issues were MAF and Bylsma. Just after the lockout Pittsburgh having two elite superstars really hindered their ability to gather depth until the cap moved up towards the end of their deals. The past is the past, no Devils fan cares what most Pittsburgh fans feel of Shero because it is covered in bias.

Because you don't have one. Pens fans have gone into great detail about what he did wrong as GM, and NJ fans (or at least you) ignore all of it. Glad your team had 'success' during his first year, but it's only one year.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Because you don't have one. Pens fans have gone into great detail about what he did wrong as GM, and NJ fans (or at least you) ignore all of it. Glad your team had 'success' during his first year, but it's only one year.

Want me to make a huge list of things Rutherford did wrong? Terrible contracts, terrible teams with great picks. He has a much worse track record than Shero. It was only one year..done with this thread. Too many hard headed fans.

 

[BHD]

Want me to make a huge list of things Rutherford did wrong?

Go ahead. Most people acknowledge Rutherford has made mistakes of the course of his career.

Terrible contracts, terrible teams with great picks. He has a much worse track record than Shero.

Nobody would deny that.

It was only one year..done with this thread.

Yet he put together a winning team in one season while Shero spent years building a team that imploded every spring.

Too many hard headed fans.

Yup.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

How is any of that even remotely on Shero?

1) TB series they were without Sid and Geno. Yet they were still favored. Don't forget a few months prior to that series he acquired Neal and Niskanen, and Kovy.
2) Pens were favored against philly
3) Pens outplayed the B's in 2 of the 4 games. They got plenty of scoring chances and shots. Not to mention this team's roster was one of the most stacked rosters in the post lock out era. If anything 2013 is an impressive accomplishment for Shero and a bad look for Bylsma.
4) Pens were favored and blew a 3-1 lead. how is that on Shero?

He built the teams and supported the coach that blew all those series. How the **** is that not on Shero?

 

[BHD]

He built the teams and supported the coach that blew all those series. How the **** is that not on Shero?

Shero apologists, or GM apologists in general. Sorry, your job is managing a hockey team.

 

[TheStatican]

Yeah Shero definitely overstayed his welcome but I still give him a lot of credit for one biggest fleecing of recent time - James Neal and Matt Niskanen for Alex Goligoski

Thanks in large part to the chemistry he found with Neal, Geno went into God Mode for an entire year. Sure I get that the ultimate goal of teams sports is to win the championship and that team failed miserably at that. Even still seeing my favorite player rip the league apart for most of the year made it a great season for me.