Ray Shero

[BHD]

Ryan Wilson's summary on HockeyBuzz and the thread reminded me of how poor a job Shero did during his last few years with the Penguins.

- Kept giving the benefit of the doubt to Bylsma.

- Traded draft picks (which are useful) for rentals (Ponikarosvky, Leopold, Morrow, Stempniak).

- Threw away two second round picks (2013 and 2014) for Douglas Murray.

- Made re-signing Tyler Kennedy (yes, that Tyler Kennedy) a priority over signing Jaromir Jagr.

- Kept re-signing Craig Adams to two-year contracts (2009, '11, '13), even though was done as a hockey player by the 2010-11 season.

- Gave 3-year and 4-year contract extensions to Kunitz (33) and Dupuis (34), respectively, after career years.

- Never fixed the 3rd and 4th lines after trading Staal.

- Signed a 35-year old Rob Scuderi to a four-year contract.

- Only once did he go out of his way to get a quality backup (Vokoun) when MAF's struggles were apparent.

I just thought I'd post this since there are people who think he got an unfair shake in Pittsburgh. Truth is, he did himself in.

Click to read more...

 

[caymanmew]

trading draft picks and prospects as a contender was very common back then. the draft and develop strategy is new (other then Detroit). what he was doing was very common of top teams back then.

the contracts he gave where dumb but the trades where good trades back then.

 

[Kristopher Letang]

Now if you wanna laugh read this from his friend http://triblive.com/mobile/9858789-96/shero-penguins-devils

 

[BHD]

trading draft picks and prospects as a contender was very common back then. the draft and develop strategy is new (other then Detroit). what he was doing was very common of top teams back then.

the contracts he gave where dumb but the trades where good trades back then.

The ones mentioned weren't. Lee Stempniak isn't going to put you over the top and Jordan Leopold isn't going to be that difference-maker.

Besides, you don't need to trade for players if you just draft them instead.

Now if you wanna laugh read this from his friend http://triblive.com/mobile/9858789-96/shero-penguins-devils

Just more brown-nosing from Rossi.

 

[Shockmaster]

trading draft picks and prospects as a contender was very common back then. the draft and develop strategy is new (other then Detroit). what he was doing was very common of top teams back then.

the contracts he gave where dumb but the trades where good trades back then.

Contending teams may trade futures for a Cup run, but not to the extent Shero did. He had no interest in developing young players.

 

[caymanmew]

The ones mentioned weren't. Lee Stempniak isn't going to put you over the top and Jordan Leopold isn't going to be that difference-maker.

Besides, you don't trade to trade for players if you just draft them instead.

ya sure but that is not how thing where done most of his time on the pens. top teams used to trade there picks and the farm to try to be the best.

Lee Stempniak might not put you over the top but he helps fill a hole. they gave up a 3rd for him which is not crazy or anything. i am not saying it is a good thing to be doing by the Pens are not build as a draft and develop team.

 

[BHD]

ya sure but that is not how thing where done most of his time on the pens. top teams used to trade there picks and the farm to try to be the best.

Lee Stempniak might not put you over the top but he helps fill a hole. they gave up a 3rd for him which is not crazy or anything. i am not saying it is a good thing to be doing by the Pens are not build as a draft and develop team.

But he gave up 3rds and 2nds and 1sts at every deadline, or whenever he need to fill a hole (Hamhuis, Vokoun). It isn't bad at first, but it adds up.

The thing is that Shero was supposed to use the draft to keep the team competitive, and he did the exact opposite.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

As usual, Wilson misses the forest for the trees.

Shero's blessing was also his curse. He got the superstars, but they developed so early that he never got he benefit of cheap 2nd contracts. His 1st priority always had to be keeping what he got, and then being very careful about choosing who and when to add.

Check his deadline acquisitions versus other contending GMs at the time. They aren't out of order.

Jagr has proven to be very successful into old age. But at the time, he was a slow 38 year old coming off a 3 year KHL stint, and TK was a speedy 25 year old coming off a 21 goal, 45 point year. Criticizing both this move and the signings of Dupuis, Kunitz, and Scuderi - who were 4 years younger and had much more recent NHL success than Jagr - is textbook hindsight criticism.

Losing Staal was a blow, but our 3rd and 4th lines would have been more effective had our team not been the most injured in the entire NHL over a good portion of Shero's later years. That cut into our depth significantly.

We had back-up quality back-ups. On a team that's constantly up against the cap, you can't be allocating good money to a back-up when your young starter plays ~70 games. Getting Vokoun on the cheap was a stroke of good luck that would be absurd to expect on a regular basis.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The ones mentioned weren't. Lee Stempniak isn't going to put you over the top and Jordan Leopold isn't going to be that difference-maker.

Lee Stempniak has more points than any Penguin but Crosby and Malkin this year. He's a solid complementary player that's well worth a 3rd at the deadline.

 

[Brooklanders*]

Ray Shero is doing great with NJ so far

And the PENS could have gotten KYLE PALMIERI for a late first If he was still there or maybe even a second

 

[BHD]

As usual, Wilson misses the forest for the trees.

Shero's blessing was also his curse. He got the superstars, but they developed so early that he never got he benefit of cheap 2nd contracts. His 1st priority always had to be keeping what he got, and then being very careful about choosing who and when to add.

That's why you need to draft players because of their ELCs. Oops..

Check his deadline acquisitions versus other contending GMs at the time. They aren't out of order.

For every Hossa and Iginla there was a Ponikarovsky or Stempniak.

Jagr has proven to be very successful into old age. But at the time, he was a slow 38 year old coming off a 3 year KHL stint, and TK was a speedy 25 year old coming off a 21 goal, 45 point year.

Kennedy was coming off what was - and still is - his only season where he produced at a top-six level. Meanwhile, Jagr continues to put up numbers.

Criticizing both this move and the signings of Dupuis, Kunitz, and Scuderi - who were 4 years younger and had much more recent NHL success than Jagr - is textbook hindsight criticism.

You don't need hindsight to know Scuderi was going to be awful or that Kunitz and Dupuis would tail off.

Losing Staal was a blow, but our 3rd and 4th lines would have been more effective had our team not been the most injured in the entire NHL over a good portion of Shero's later years. That cut into our depth significantly.

Yet the team was relatively healthy other years and failed miserably (2014).

We had back-up quality back-ups. On a team that's constantly up against the cap, you can't be allocating good money to a back-up when your young starter plays ~70 games. Getting Vokoun on the cheap was a stroke of good luck that would be absurd to expect on a regular basis.

And also tends to falter in the playoffs, at least at the time.

 

[Brooklanders*]

The Perron deal never made sense.

Trading Neal was strange but I like Hornqvist

 

[Baemon Severson*]

Teams that sold off a lot assets to go for it:

New Jersey, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and NYR. Shero wasn't the only to do so during that time. Holmgren, Lou and Sather also did. Hell, even LA with the Carter, Sekera, Lucic and Gaborik trades did. They dont have much coming up in the way of prospects. When your team is THAT good, your window is only open for so long.

You like Maatta, Pouliot and Dumoulin are mainstays on your blueline? It's really difficult to draft in the 20s...trust me, I'm a Devils fan. Guys like Corrente, Bergfors, Tedenby, Josefson and Matteau come to mind. Only teams like Detroit, St. Louis and the Flyers seem to find guys in that area. It's really hard.

 

[BHD]

Lee Stempniak has more points than any Penguin but Crosby and Malkin this year. He's a solid complementary player that's well worth a 3rd at the deadline.

Fair enough. Perhaps Morrow is better example. My point is that he acquired mediocre players to fill spots instead of actually having younger players to step up.

 

[BHD]

The Perron deal never made sense.

Trading Neal was strange but I like Hornqvist

Those were both Rutherford moves. Although, you have to hand it to Shero for getting Neal (and Niskanen) for Goligoski.

 

[caymanmew]

Fair enough. Perhaps Morrow is better example. My point is that he acquired mediocre players to fill spots instead of actually having younger players to step up.

that is the way it was done. that is what teams did. the new way of doing things is still very new and honestly not the most effective. it is hard to draft and develop players. it takes a lot of "luck" to consistently get good young player to step in and fill the holes.

 

[crossicepass]

As usual, Wilson misses the forest for the trees.

Did he fail to include Shero's most egregious error: the retention of Disco after consecutive playoff debacles?

 

[BHD]

that is the way it was done. that is what teams did. the new way of doing things is still very new and honestly not the most effective. it is hard to draft and develop players. it takes a lot of "luck" to consistently get good young player to step in and fill the holes.

And an actual emphasis on drafting. Shero ignored that part.

Ray Shero is doing great with NJ so far

And the PENS could have gotten KYLE PALMIERI for a late first If he was still there or maybe even a second

They would need draft picks to do that. Shero AND Rutherford traded them all away.

 

[caymanmew]

And an actual emphasis on drafting. Shero ignored that part.

almost everyone ignored that part. Draft and Develop was the not strategy used back then. your faulting him for not doing something almost everyone else was also not doing.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That's why you need to draft players because of their ELCs. Oops..

Shero's drafting was fine. His problem was refusing to deal from a position of strength (defense) and signing too many vet defensemen logjamming those picks.

For every Hossa and Iginla there was a Ponikarovsky or Stempniak.

Again, there's no problem with Stempniak.

You need to compare Shero's deadline track record to other playoff GMs over the period in question. You'll be surprised once you step out of the echo chamber.

Kennedy was coming off what was - and still is - his only season where he produced at a top-six level. Meanwhile, Jagr continues to put up numbers.

You don't need hindsight to know Scuderi was going to be awful or that Kunitz and Dupuis would tail off.

You want to have your cake and eat it too when it comes to old vet FAs.

Yet the team was relatively healthy other years and failed miserably (2014).

The Pens were a game away from the ECF in 2014 in spite of Crosby clearly playing injured.

And also tends to falter in the playoffs, at least at the time.

Then he should've looked more closely into the root of the problem, which was the starter himself. Throwing money at back-ups because your starter's a playoff headcase doesn't make much sense.

 

[Baemon Severson*]

Did he fail to include Shero's most egregious error: the retention of Disco after consecutive playoff debacles?

To be fair, a lot of those playoff failures were 80% Fleury. How is this on Bylsma? You aren't going to bench the goalie who got you there.

10- .891
11- .899
12- .834
13- .883

Also, does Shero get credit for the Fleury extension? Seems pretty good atm

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Did he fail to include Shero's most egregious error: the retention of Disco after consecutive playoff debacles?

I think Shero wanted to make sure that if he did fire Bylsma, he could get an upgrade.

We didn't in 2014, and we ended up with Mike Johnston. All of a sudden, getting within a game of the ECF doesn't look so bad.

 

[Shockmaster]

To be fair, a lot of those playoff failures were 80% Fleury. How is this on Bylsma? You aren't going to bench the goalie who got you there.

10- .891
11- .899
12- .834
13- .883

Also, does Shero get credit for the Fleury extension? Seems pretty good atm

He was bad in 2012 and 2013, but regardless of what his save percentage says, he wasn't the issue in 2010 or 2011. If save percentage is the be all end all for determining how well a goalie plays in the playoffs with out actually looking at the bigger picture, then Jonas Hiller did pretty well for the Ducks in the 2014 playoffs against the Stars.

Under Bylsma the Penguins blew two 3-1 series leads. He couldn't keep control of his team in 2012. In 2013 he put a future hall of fame RW on LW and refused to change his line combinations while the Penguins couldn't score against the Bruins. And while all this was going on, Shero sat around with his thumb up his ass and had blind faith in his bestest buddy Bylsma.

At the end of the day, those two deserved to get fired.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Shero inherited the best core in the league, which won him a Cup, and left it in ****ing shambles.

**** him.

 

[Baemon Severson*]

http://drivingplay.blogspot.com/2015/05/on-difficulty-of-starting-from-scratch.html

Read this post about how Shero inherited 0 depth from his predecessor