Rate Dubas' Deadline

[ottomaddox]

Ultimately it's not that Kyle wouldn't. It's that Kyle couldn't. Too many wasted prospects and picks have been used. Also the cap, but to a lesser degree.

 

[Stephen]

We don't have rational leaf fans here.

People used to defend Burke to no end.

Heck people even argued that Colby Armstrong was a solid NHLer.

Some people enjoy defending everything a management team does to produce a borderline playoff team while digging up statistics to prove that everything is much better than you think. It's great.

 

[ottomaddox]

The irony... surely you must see it?

I don't mind being accused of being emotional. My thread bans, etc. certainly prove it.

I don't know. I let loose on Dubas and this team and I got the hammer. Now everyone is throwing rotten tomatoes. They are now considered "rational" I guess.

 

[SprDaVE]

We all know what the theory behind the move was. It didn't work but I don't hold Dubas to blame.
You can take chances with non core members to maybe find that spark, missing team chemistry.
My issue with Dubas is seeing players like Muzzin and Hyman and going out to get Rosen and Malgin.
This I totally disagree with unless they are mostly AHL, ultimate emergency moves.
I'm not asking for him to touch the core.
I'm asking for harder north/south 200 foot players. If you are using the rational that the core needs to grow, mature, etc., then give them some guys that play a harder game around them. Give the team and the coach different in game options. Need to lock it down, then we are better. Getting bottled up in the neutral zone, then give some straight line grit who can bust through.

Yeah yeah yeah just go out and trade for all the Muzzins and Hymans... it's so easy and super reasonsable!!!!!!....?

Players like Rosen and Malgin were added without losing a single roster player or [long-term] future asset. They are good players that can provide something the Leafs could probably use. Teams acquire these kind of players frequently.

You can't just go out and add Muzzins anytime you want. I know your point is that you want more grit and heart and all that stuff but it's a process and I think Dubas is adding those players just fine without compromising his vision of skill/puck possession first hockey.

 

[SprDaVE]

I don't mind being accused of being emotional. My thread bans, etc. certainly prove it.

I don't know. I let loose on Dubas and this team and I got the hammer. Now everyone is throwing rotten tomatoes. They are now considered "rational" I guess.

Emotional and rational are 2 completely different words at opposite sides of the spectrum.

I think there are plenty of rational posters around here and in the world. Let's keep it at that.

 

[Stephen]

The trade isn't that. We've had a full year of Barrie in that and to help us in the goal of winning hockey games. In 2 years if they don't re-sign Kadri, does it become Kerfoot and a 6th for a 3rd?

From an "asset tree" point of view the trade return would be a snap shot of whatever the initial returns mutate/reduce to. To be fair in 2 years if Barrie and Kadri are both gone neither side will be looking back on these seasons anyway.

 

[LeafSteel]

The trade isn't that. We've had a full year of Barrie in that and to help us in the goal of winning hockey games. In 2 years if they don't re-sign Kadri, does it become Kerfoot and a 6th for a 3rd?

Sorry, I don't see Barrie a strong selling point for this trade either.

While some will say you can't fault Dubas for Barrie not fitting in, I will say I could see it from the beginning. Barrie is a soft offensive d-man, and we needed a strong defensive defender.

The trade ignored the need and anyone who expected differently from Barrie hadn't watched him play. That he hasn't fit in shouldn't be a surprise. We needed a square peg and tried to fit a circular one instead.

Kadri could have been retained or used in trade for a defender who better fit our needs.

Barrie will go somewhere and do really well, but in a role that better suits his skill set, and it won't be Toronto.

 

[SprDaVE]

Sorry, I don't see Barrie a strong selling point for this trade either.

While some will say you can't fault Dubas for Barrie not fitting in, I will say I could see it from the beginning. Barrie is a soft offensive d-man, and we needed a strong defensive defender.

The trade ignored the need and anyone who expected differently from Barrie hadn't watched him play. That he hasn't fit in shouldn't be a surprise. We needed a square peg and tried to fit a circular one instead.

Kadri could have been retained or used in trade for a defender who better fit our needs.

Barrie will go somewhere and do really well, but in a role that better suits his skill set, and it won't be Toronto.

Barrie has been pretty much as advertised. He just had a really bad start under Babcock. He has been much better since Keefe has taken over.

Since November 20th, Barrie has 5 goals and 30 points in 41 games, and a +4. That's a 60 point pace in 82 games. That's really really really good and exactly what we needed on the right side after years of Hainseys, Polaks and Ozhiganovs and whatever else.

People just can't seem to erase the part of Barries play under Babcock, which was indeed really bad.

Kerfoot has also been pretty solid in terms of his 5 on 5 numbers. He's getting zero PP Time though, so his totals seem a lot worst at a first glance. He's matched his 5 on 5 totals with us so far versus last season (I think so anyway).

The one big criticism of Dubas for me was not the Kadri trade, it was re-signing Ceci and taking a chance that he would bounce back. Now THAT really put a dent. He's been awful and the Leafs could have used that cap space for someone actually good.

 

[ToneDog]

Rational? No but our fan base still has Dubas ass kissers

Some will defend him to the death. They have grounds to do so but to defend virtually every criticism is either trolling or the defender has his head so deep up Dubas' posterior that he cannot see the truth. I find some of their posts as nauseating as some of the rotten eggs this team has laid on the ice.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Barrie would be more than fine here with the right mix of d-men which we don't have right now, and probably didn't to start the year

 

[ShaneFalco]

Some will defend him to the death. They have grounds to do so but to defend virtually every criticism is either trolling or the defender has his head so deep up Dubas' posterior that he cannot see the truth. I find some of their posts as nauseating as some of the rotten eggs this team has laid on the ice.

It goes the other way too though. Some just hate him and give no credit whatsoever. Everything he does is awful

 

[DarkKnight]

Barrie would be more than fine here with the right mix of d-men which we don't have right now, and probably didn't to start the year

Here's the thing. Was anyone arguing for another soft rover D man, was that on our off season wishlist? When you dissected our defensive needs, apart from right sided, it was hard to see the fit. We had Reilly on the PP(nobody had a problem with him there at the time), we only use one D man, so his greatest asset was really redundancy. Factor in his defensive liability and he was simply the wrong D man for this team, which you've sort of alluded to in a roundabout way.

Barrie has his strengths, but for this team, he was the wrong guy at the wrong time and this season has proven just that. People can use padded stats all they want, when you drill down it looks a mirage for the most part and is simply ignored to defend Dubas. That's fine, but I find it fascinating, because GM's make so many moves, they invariably screw up, and yet here...

Anyways.

 

[ToneDog]

It goes the other way too though. Some just hate him and give no credit whatsoever. Everything he does is awful

Actually the posters that do not see any faults in the team as a whole are the posters that are the most irritating. Some will try to convince you the sky is green.

Sure you have Dubas trolls. I for one give him credit where credit is due (Muzzin, Campbell, Sandin, Robertson) but I am not sold on him overall. I was critical of Nylander's play last year. I have seldom criticised him this year. It will be the same for Dubas when he rights the ship.

 

[Stephen]

Yeah yeah yeah just go out and trade for all the Muzzins and Hymans... it's so easy and super reasonsable!!!!!!....?

Players like Rosen and Malgin were added without losing a single roster player or [long-term] future asset. They are good players that can provide something the Leafs could probably use. Teams acquire these kind of players frequently.

I have hopes Rosen can be serviceable during this stretch and he gets the chance to prove himself but I wouldn’t go out on a limb and say either player are necessarily good players.

 

[LeafSteel]

Here's the thing. Was anyone arguing for another soft rover D man, was that on our off season wishlist? When you dissected our defensive needs, apart from right sided, it was hard to see the fit. We had Reilly on the PP(nobody had a problem with him there at the time), we only use one D man, so his greatest asset was really redundancy. Factor in his defensive liability and he was simply the wrong D man for this team, which you've sort of alluded to in a roundabout way.

Barrie has his strengths, but for this team, he was the wrong guy at the wrong time and this season has proven just that. People can use padded stats all they want, when you drill down it looks a mirage for the most part and is simply ignored to defend Dubas. That's fine, but I find it fascinating, because GM's make so many moves, they invariably screw up, and yet here...

Anyways.

Like

Very well said.

 

[SprDaVE]

I have hopes Rosen can be serviceable during this stretch and he gets the chance to prove himself but I wouldn’t go out on a limb and say either player are necessarily good players.

I mean... depth is depth? Malgin has 180 NHL games and some form of pedigree, Marchment does not and he's actually older.

To say we didn't need either player just because they aren't Hyman or Muzzin seems like going to an extreme to criticize to the point where it doesn't make any sense anymore.

 

[ToneDog]

Barrie would be more than fine here with the right mix of d-men which we don't have right now, and probably didn't to start the year

The Barrie trade looked much better after it was made. I am hoping he can find another gear in the playoffs and prove his neigh sayers wrong.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Actually the posters that do not see any faults in the team as a whole are the posters that are the most irritating. Some will try to convince you the sky is green.

Sure you have Dubas trolls. I for one give him credit where credit is due (Muzzin, Campbell, Sandin, Robertson) but I am not sold on him overall. I was critical of Nylander's play last year. I have seldom criticised him this year. It will be the same for Dubas when he rights the ship.

That's fair. I don't like everything he's done and there are some things that I'm taking a wait and see approach. But the Lou love around here with some - those are the fans that usually dislike Dubas and every move he makes

 

[ACC1224]

Actually the posters that do not see any faults in the team as a whole are the posters that are the most irritating. Some will try to convince you the sky is green.

Sure you have Dubas trolls. I for one give him credit where credit is due (Muzzin, Campbell, Sandin, Robertson) but I am not sold on him overall. I was critical of Nylander's play last year. I have seldom criticised him this year. It will be the same for Dubas when he rights the ship.

Echo's my thoughts as well as the Kadri trade. That one could have worked out better but I did like it at the start of the season.

 

[ToneDog]

Yeah yeah yeah just go out and trade for all the Muzzins and Hymans... it's so easy and super reasonsable!!!!!!....?

Players like Rosen and Malgin were added without losing a single roster player or [long-term] future asset. They are good players that can provide something the Leafs could probably use. Teams acquire these kind of players frequently.

You can't just go out and add Muzzins anytime you want. I know your point is that you want more grit and heart and all that stuff but it's a process and I think Dubas is adding those players just fine without compromising his vision of skill/puck possession first hockey.

Interesting enough a couple of weeks ago I recall McGuire comparing the Leafs to the Pens of the early 90s. He said they turned it around when they acquired grit like Ulf Samuellson, Kjell Samuelsson
and Rick Tocchet and made a commitment to defence.

 

[SprDaVE]

Interesting enough a couple of weeks ago I recall McGuire comparing the Leafs to the Pens of the early 90s. He said they turned it around when they acquired grit like Ulf Samuellson, Kjell Samuelsson
and Rick Tocchet and made a commitment to defence.

Early 90s. That's 30 years ago. Did the early 90s team not have some soft player named Mario Lemieux? I don't remember.

We're going to a whole new extreme here aren't we?

 

[Trapper]

Interesting enough a couple of weeks ago I recall McGuire comparing the Leafs to the Pens of the early 90s. He said they turned it around when they acquired grit like Ulf Samuellson, Kjell Samuelsson
and Rick Tocchet and made a commitment to defence.

Not to mention Ferraro's comments on trade center that we have too many of the same players.
Overall I value Ray's assessment. I'm not asking to trade Nylander for Josh Anderson. I'm asking for adding in addition too. We have enough Johnsson/Malgin/Rosen types.

And no it's not easy. If it was, who needs Kyle Dubas as GM. If both Keefe and Babcock can value Hyman in the top 6, there must be something to it. Otherwise, just trade Hyman for another Malgin.
If Dubas can trade for and re-sign Muzzin, again, there must be something to it.

 

[ToneDog]

Early 90s. That's 30 years ago. Did the early 90s team not have some soft player named Mario Lemieux? I don't remember.

We're going to a whole new extreme here aren't we?

Talk to Pierre. You know the guy who was an assistant coach on those teams and has been in the game for what 40+ years ?

 

[ToneDog]

Not to mention Ferraro's comments on trade center that we have too many of the same players.
Overall I value Ray's assessment. I'm not asking to trade Nylander for Josh Anderson. I'm asking for adding in addition too. We have enough Johnsson/Malgin/Rosen types.

And no it's not easy. If it was, who needs Kyle Dubas as GM. If both Keefe and Babcock can value Hyman in the top 6, there must be something to it. Otherwise, just trade Hyman for another Malgin.
If Dubas can trade for and re-sign Muzzin, again, there must be something to it.

Agree. It should not take a rocket scientist to move some skill for grit. Hell didn't Dubas acquire Muzzin and Clifford? As far as I know it is not like splitting the atom.

 

[Trapper]

That's fair. I don't like everything he's done and there are some things that I'm taking a wait and see approach. But the Lou love around here with some - those are the fans that usually dislike Dubas and every move he makes

With Burke I liked about 20% of things he did and disliked 80%.
The rates with Lou were higher.
With Dubas I'm at 50-50. There are things I like and things I very much disagree with.

Certain things I can wait and see and then in the summer there are certain things that need to change now.