Player Discussion Rasmus Dahlin Part 3- D (1st Overall, 2018, Frölunda HC, SHL)

[beerme1]

Dahlin is a greyhound compared to Larry Murphy. Murphy ended up as the 5th highest scoring dman of all time. His Toronto experience really demonstrated the importance of the surrounding cast. He was the Tom Brady or Dan Marino of dmen. Not exceptionally mobile but adept at slipping checkers and finding the seams. Dahlin has shown that ability but he gets in trouble by trying to do too much. He'll figure it out.
Related: Best slow skaters to play in the NHL

Uh oh. Toronto ran Larry Murphy outta town. Hope we don't see that with Dahlin but I want more from him.

 

[jc17]

He's not physically mature and there's really no way to rush that. Does he even shave yet? People mature at different rates. It's up to the coaching staff to recognize that and not try to force his development like they did with Tyler Myers. Myers could have been a great dman if they let him grow up at his own pace.

Im saying they tried to rush physical maturity last year and should instead help him figure out how to use his current size affectively like other smaller players, with Bryson being an example lately, especially with the play on McDavid.

 

[tsujimoto74]

He makes some of the most creative small area plays to slip a forechecker or move the puck on the tape of one of the forwards to get the clear of any defenseman I have ever seen. What we haven't seen is any coach just let him go offensively which is where his talents truly are - we have had a series of coaches more worried about minimizing him making a mistake instead of maximizing his ability to create. It's a classic NHL mentality.

Yes. I also don't think I've ever seen another player (F or D) who does, for lack of a better term, full body fakes like Dahlin does sometimes when he's trying to create space from the point. You know what I'm talking about, those dekes where he flips his hips in one direction and then somehow skates the complete opposite way? That shit is bananas.

 

[Buffaloed]

Im saying they tried to rush physical maturity last year and should instead help him figure out how to use his current size affectively like other smaller players, with Bryson being an example lately, especially with the play on McDavid.

Bryson, though smaller is 3 years older than Dahlin and likely to be much more physically mature. He's not just faster than Dahlin, he's probably quite a bit stronger too. The same applies to Makar.

 

[jc17]

That shit is bananas.

B A NANA S

 

[Bendium]

I am amazed at how many pages of excuses there are here.

1. Its the organization's fault....and he will never be better until they fix the organization.
2. Its the coach's fault......and he won't get better until they get better coaching.
3. Its the team's fault.....and he won't get better until they get better players.
4. Its his partners fault.....and he won't get better until he has a better partner.

How about this....

1. Its Dahlin's fault......and he won't get better until HE recognizes his weaknesses and does something about it.

 

[Buffaloed]

Lance Lysowski's take on Dahlin
Sabres Mailbag: Jack Quinn's NHL timeline, possible deadline trades, targets in UFA
Lance: It’s too soon to say, but I’m not ready to give up on the generational label. Unfortunately, the expectations were unrealistic. In hindsight, he was rushed to the National Hockey League and his development was impacted negatively by Phil Housley’s man-to-man defensive-zone structure, followed by Ralph Krueger’s preference to have his defensemen play conservatively.
We’re starting to see more consistent signs of what Dahlin can become. So many people want to label Dahlin a bust because of what we’re seeing from Cale Makar and Quinn Hughes. Far different players from totally different backgrounds. Victor Hedman struggled early in his career. We’re seeing growth from Dahlin in how quickly he responds to bad plays, and this is the first time he’s played 20-plus minutes per game in the NHL. Ask me this question in a year or two. In my opinion, his ceiling is still sky high.

But then he goes on to say he sees Quinn and Krebs being called up at some point this season but expresses doubt about Paterka saying he needs to get better defensively.

 

[2 others]

I am amazed at how many pages of excuses there are here.

1. Its the organization's fault....and he will never be better until they fix the organization.
2. Its the coach's fault......and he won't get better until they get better coaching.
3. Its the team's fault.....and he won't get better until they get better players.
4. Its his partners fault.....and he won't get better until he has a better partner.

How about this....

1. Its Dahlin's fault......and he won't get better until HE recognizes his weaknesses and does something about it.

It's the power of denial. It keeps us sane.

For the record: I'm not "against" Dahlin, nor do i critize the whole lot. I was just writing stuff off my soul in the last two days, actually focusing on a very specific problem (skating), and even this specific thing has positive aspects - great edges, lateral movement, some of the stuff that i just read today. He is a good to great player at times, but like i said, give him the Draisaitl treatment, let us have that "Aha moment" when he comes back faster and more explosive from the off-season, and he will transform into a #1 right out of the gate.
I hope he realizes this sooner than later.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

I am amazed at how many pages of excuses there are here.

1. Its the organization's fault....and he will never be better until they fix the organization.
2. Its the coach's fault......and he won't get better until they get better coaching.
3. Its the team's fault.....and he won't get better until they get better players.
4. Its his partners fault.....and he won't get better until he has a better partner.

How about this....

1. Its Dahlin's fault......and he won't get better until HE recognizes his weaknesses and does something about it.

Why can't it be all of the above?

And Dahlin himself is only 21.


At least we fixed point 2, and while point 4 is better now that he isn't with Butcher, we still have Joker/Samuelsson/Power to look forward to him being paired with or maybe someone taken in this coming up draft.


As for point 3, I think we're going to be looking pretty good on that front pretty soon. Don't think it will be long for all points to be addressed including the one about Dahlin.

 

[Bendium]

It's the power of denial. It keeps us sane.

For the record: I'm not "against" Dahlin, nor do i critize the whole lot. I was just writing stuff off my soul in the last two days, actually focusing on a very specific problem (skating), and even this specific thing has positive aspects - great edges, lateral movement, some of the stuff that i just read today. He is a good to great player at times, but like i said, give him the Draisaitl treatment, let us have that "Aha moment" when he comes back faster and more explosive from the off-season, and he will transform into a #1 right out of the gate.
I hope he realizes this sooner than later.

For the record, I am not against him either. I have absolutely no desire to see him fail. I am a longtime diehard Sabres fan, and I would love nothing more than for him to be a generational talent. The problem is, while I have seen plenty of talent in him, none of it looks generational to me, and his defects have often out weighed his talent. I argued from day one that he should have to work his way up the ranks like everyone else, and learn to dominate and mature at every level before going to the next. I believe that's the case with every draft pick no matter what round they are taken in. I think when you gift them advancement, you make them think they are good enough, and it takes longer....if ever....for them to go back and realize they still need to do all that work to become great. I am really hoping Mitts has made that late adjustment.

The great ones have always known this from the start....and noone could stop them from making THEMSELVES better. In fact if you threw an obstacle in their way it only emboldened them and made them fight harder. I just haven't seen that in Dahlin. I have seen him turtle away from pressure far too often.

 

[2 others]

For the record, I am not against him either. I have absolutely no desire to see him fail. I am a longtime diehard Sabres fan, and I would love nothing more than for him to be a generational talent. The problem is, while I have seen plenty of talent in him, none of it looks generational to me, and his defects have often out weighed his talent. I argued from day one that he should have to work his way up the ranks like everyone else, and learn to dominate and mature at every level before going to the next. I believe that's the case with every draft pick no matter what round they are taken in. I think when you gift them advancement, you make them think they are good enough, and it takes longer....if ever....for them to go back and realize they still need to do all that work to become great. I am really hoping Mitts has made that late adjustment.

The great ones have always known this from the start....and noone could stop them from making THEMSELVES better. In fact if you threw an obstacle in their way it only emboldened them and made them fight harder. I just haven't seen that in Dahlin. I have seen him turtle away from pressure far too often.

He grew up in the Social Media Bubble, he was being hyped at a very young age, being told from all over the world how good he is and will be.
There's just bubbles all around us, and everyone of us is participating in the bubble(s) he feels most comfortable, the echo chambers of our own self complacency. Check the comments of youtube videos about any athlete or artist, you will hear that they are the greatest. I did that for fun, i ended up having watched like twenty or more GOAT (AINEC) videos in a row from all over the place, both athletes and artists.
That's just youtube, i'm not going into instagram people, newspapers, or this board here (or else i might get a warning )

So maybe it's not all on Dahlin, in a broader sense.

 

[joshjull]

I'm not willing to nitpick. I think my point was being made.

How many minutes was he on the PK, and why wasn't he being used his first three seasons?
Bryson is being used because he has faster acceleration and arrives earlier in the corners,which is key on the PK

No coach ever uses skating ability generally, let alone the specifics of the bolded, to determine which dmen he uses on the PK.

Bryson plays on the PK because he is a smart defensive player with good defensive instincts. Things you couldn’t say about Dahlin.

If the bolded was the determining factor for PK ice time then Makar and Hughes would be the top PKers for their respective teams. But they’re not and never have been. Instead they’re viewed the same way as Dahlin as a PK option. Not someone you’d look to unless you had to.

Young offensive dmen with things to work on in their defensive games are generally not asked to PK. Thats the case no matter how amazing their skating is.

 

[2 others]

If the bolded was the determining factor for PK ice time then Makar and Hughes would be the top PKers for their respective teams.

Weight/Height doesn't factor in here?

 

[joshjull]

Weight/Height doesn't factor in here?

What?

 

[2 others]

What?

I was just asking, not arguing. I mean if it's just defensive instints, or is it a combination of instincts, height/weight (big body), skating ability. I know Bryson is a small dude, but i'm curious now what you think.

Edit: I'm pretty sure his elite acceleration is what makes him so effective on the PK. Instincts, sure, i understand, but his ability to accelerate out of a standstill is impressive. He's like an electric car in that sense (© to @Buffaloed for mentioning this)

 

[joshjull]

I was just asking, not arguing. I mean if it's just defensive instints, or is it a combination of instincts, height/weight (big body), skating ability. I know Bryson is a small dude, but i'm curious now what you think.

I hope you understand this line of questioning makes absolutely no sense.

You asked: Why does Bryson play on the PK over Dahlin?
You answered: Its due to skating ability.
My response: Because Bryson is a smarter defensive player with better defensive instincts

You: But what about height and weight.

My response to that: What? As in what relevance does that have to why Bryson plays over Dahlin. I’d really love it if you’d explain that. Because it sounds like your changing the subject.

 

[Bendium]

No coach ever uses skating ability generally, let alone the specifics of the bolded, to determine which dmen he uses on the PK.

I cannot agree with this. All other things being equal, I will take the better skater. It just allows for more plays to be made. Bryson is a great example of someone who has multiple options in most situations because his skating can buy him time, move him to a better passing location, stay with a defender, etc. Given the same hockey IQ, the better skater will do more with it.

 

[2 others]

I hope you understand this line of questioning makes absolutely no sense.

You asked: Why does Bryson play on the PK over Dahlin?
You answered: Its due to skating ability.
My response: Because Bryson is a smarter defensive player with better defensive instincts

You: But what about height and weight.

My response to that: What? As in what relevance does that have to why Bryson plays over Dahlin. I’d really love it if you’d explain that. Because it sounds like your changing the subject.

I edited my post, to focus on skating again, because it IS a factor with Bryson. @Bendium expanded my thoughts

another added thought: zone entries through dump-ins: Bryson is the perfect antidote for this, because he is so fast in the corners/behind the net

edit#2: I mentioned height/weight, as if that might be a possibility why they aren't on the PK. If Makar or Hughes were taller, bigger bodies, they might play on the PK.
I think it's too subjective in the end, with more than one reason why they play/don't play on the PK, because whatever works (see Bryson, the little dude)

 

[Chainshot]

Bryson had the trust of the Providence coaching staff and was being used as a PKer (hell in ALL situations) in his second and third NCAA season. He has more experience at it - and in particular being successful at it - than Dahlin because he is three years older.

 

[joshjull]

It absolutely does, skating is the most important skill at the NHL level and limits Dahlins ceiling by quite a bit. Unless you're a stay at home dman which Dahlin will never be you better be a great skater to truly be one of the greats. All the great dman of all time have incredible skating ability.

No it isn’t. The most important asset for a player is their mental game. How fast they can process the game. Which is impacted by their acumen and instincts offensively and defensively. Those are mental “skills” not a physical ones.

Its why an average skater like Asplund is a much better player than Bjork. Even though Bjork is a better and much faster skater.

 

[Der Jaeger]

This will be a fun thread to bump in a few years. Like when everyone on the trade board would take Keith Ballard over Duncan Keith back in 2007

 

[Buffaloed]

I cannot agree with this. All other things being equal, I will take the better skater. It just allows for more plays to be made. Bryson is a great example of someone who has multiple options in most situations because his skating can buy him time, move him to a better passing location, stay with a defender, etc. Given the same hockey IQ, the better skater will do more with it.

Who wouldn't take the better skater if all other things are equal?

 

[joshjull]

I cannot agree with this. All other things being equal, I will take the better skater. It just allows for more plays to be made. Bryson is a great example of someone who has multiple options in most situations because his skating can buy him time, move him to a better passing location, stay with a defender, etc. Given the same hockey IQ, the better skater will do more with it.

But they're not with Bryson and Dahlin’s respective defensive acumens . Thats kind of the point.

 

[2 others]

Who wouldn't take the better skater if all other things are equal?

Because that's not how life works. Have you ever seen two absolutely identical persons in real life, with one thing that separates them? He tried to make a point about the importance of skating.
This board sometimes..

 

[MarkusKetterer]

Because that's not how life works. Have you ever seen two absolutely identical persons in real life, with one thing that separates them? He tried to make a point about the importance of skating.
This board sometimes..

No. Because identical twins are weird!