Post-Game Talk: Rangers 2, Pens 1 (OT) - And So Begins Our Summer of Discontent

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Ziggyjoe21

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Nov 12, 2003
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Really? Despres is being used in the Ducks' top 4 and he is having a better playoffs than Martin did. Also, Despres is 23 and Martin is 34. Also, Despres' contract is much cheaper. Foolish comparison.

And giving credit to Martin for Letang's season.:laugh:

Despres ice time past 5 games: 20, 18, 16, 16, 17. This is 6th on his team.
 

MtlPenFan

Registered User
Apr 14, 2010
15,629
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All the wrong guys talking. Like usual.

Paraphrasing:

Scuderi: "Pretty standard year for me. I thought I was solid defensively" (Mackey's timeline)

Kunitz: "I don't know what happened? WE couldn't find our way and thought we'd still be playing"

Lovejoy: "My agent told me I was coming here to play top role. I wasn't expecting 27 minutes a night. You are what your record says you are"

Just ****ing go away already. The lot of you.
 

Ziggyjoe21

Registered User
Nov 12, 2003
9,028
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I hated the Despres trade as much as anyone, but thinking that Despres is some sort of savior/core player/reliable player is foolish. His value was 100% based on his potential. He sure as hell hasn't lived up to his potential yet.

Just compare Despres to the impact and ice time that Pouliot and Maatta received. 20 year old, rookie Pouliot gets over a minute more TOI per game than Despres got here this season. There isn't some sort of secret anti Despres agenda within the Pens organization that only HFB can see. And let's be honest, he's not even remotely close to as good as most of this board thinks he is.

Why don't you guys circle jerk over someone who's actually good, like Maatta or Letang?
 
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hiptanaka

Registered User
Jan 12, 2006
1,474
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Woonsocket
I ran into a bunch of the Pens at the bar yesterday afternoon. Crosby, Martin, Sutter, Downie, Hornqvist, Maata, and Scuderi were all there. Pretty crazy seeing them boozing the afternoon after they lost, but hey, I don't blame them, haha. My girlfriend wanted a pic and Sutter took one of my girl, me, Crosby, and Martin.

How did you run into Maatta at the bar? He isn't old enough to drink :D
 

warcum71

Registered User
Oct 16, 2014
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I think comparing Crosby/Malkin v Lemieux/Jagr is a fool's errand. The game is too different.
I play tennis also, and it's like comparing John McEnroe to Roger Federer.
The players now are too big and strong and well trained and the game even 20years ago was comically simplistic to what we have now.
The Russians heralded in the systemic play and dedication to fitness.
In the Canada v Russia summit in 1972 just read the quotes from Phil Esposito, they did not even know how to practice back then, compared to USSR.
Anyway, apples to oranges.
But you will still hear Phil Bourque on the radio talking about how SID or Geno need to "take over" like he remembers Mario could Back When.
It is simply impossible now.
More so when Crosby has 2-3 guys on him because nobody needs to worry about Scuderi or Kunitz.

Apples v Oranges.

lemieux jagr, francis all good beat double teams and teams out of position with great passing, unfortunately crosby does not posess this quality. great players make great plays in any era. the great players make those around them better. you couldnt hardly double or triple team lem, jags , francis they would make you pay more often or not. they continually double team crosby because it works he never makes them pay. these skills transcend any era. they are what makes a player great.
 

Waffle Fries

Registered User
Mar 7, 2013
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And this justifies saying that Despres is comprable to Martin? There's more to hockey those 3 attributes. For example, being reliable in all the zones.


IIRC both Martin and Despres are FAs this season. I bet Martin will get at least 4x more per year, despite the fact he's 34 and past his prime.

Despres has had a significantly better playoffs than any Penguins D. It's not even close. He's been better than Martin was in every possible way. Skating, offensively, defensively, physically. Everything.

You can't just point to ice times and think that changes anything. The Ducks use Lindholm-Beauchemin as their big minute eaters. The other 4 dmen have roughly equal even strength ice time. What puts him sixth (by 2 seconds) is that he doesn't get any powerplay time. And on a team with Fowler, Vatanen, Lindholm and Beauchemin, that's more than understandable.

Finally, Despres is not a free agent. He's signed for another season and will be an RFA after. I'd advise against making claims like that if you clearly don't know.
 

IcedCapp

Registered User
Aug 7, 2009
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Despres has had a significantly better playoffs than any Penguins D. it's not even close. He's been better than Martin was in every possible way. Skating, offensively, defensively, physically. Everything.

You can't just point to ice times and think that changes anything. The Ducks use Lindholm-Beauchemin as their big minute eaters. The other 4 dmen have roughly equal even strength ice time. What puts him sixth (by 2 seconds) is that he doesn't get any powerplay time. And on a team with Fowler, Vatanen, Lindholm and Beauchemin, that's more than understandable.

Finally, Despres is not a free agent. He's signed for another season and will be an RFA after. I'd advise against making claims like that if you clearly don't know.

I think you should just save your breath on this one.

The guy mentioned Pouliot. If he thinks Pouliot looked better than Despres this season, the guy is toting one massive agenda. Pouliot's entire value is "potential-based" whereas Despres has actually proven to be an NHL player.

Add to the fact that his entire take on Martin reads like "Paul Martin's Agent's Free Agency Pitch to some Desperate Team", and you can tell the guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

The part about Despres' contract status is just laughable. Jesus. I mean, you can easily research these things. This guy doesn't even care about how much **** he shovels.

edit: in other words, he finds it easier to look like a fool and post the first thing that enters his mind than to type "google.com <enter> simon despres contract <enter>"

Think about that.
 

Waffle Fries

Registered User
Mar 7, 2013
18,086
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I think you should just save your breath on this one.

The guy mentioned Pouliot. If he thinks Pouliot looked better than Despres this season, the guy is toting one massive agenda. Pouliot's entire value is "potential-based" whereas Despres has actually proven to be an NHL player.

Add to the fact that his entire take on Martin reads like "Paul Martin's Agent's Free Agency Pitch to some Desperate Team", and you can tell the guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

The part about Despres' contract status is just laughable. Jesus. I mean, you can easily research these things. This guy doesn't even care about how much **** he shovels.

You're right. It's just frustrating. Especially when you read comments like this:

I hated the Despres trade as much as anyone, but thinking that Despres is some sort of savior/core player/reliable player is foolish. His value was 100% based on his potential. He sure as hell hasn't lived up to his potential yet.

Just compare Despres to the impact and ice time that Pouliot and Maatta received. 20 year old, rookie Pouliot gets over a minute more TOI per game than Despres got here this season. There isn't some sort of secret anti Despres agenda within the Pens organization that only HFB can see. And let's be honest, he's not even remotely close to as good as most of this board thinks he is.

Why don't you guys circle jerk over someone who's actually good, like Maatta or Letang?

Why don't you watch a Ducks game or read what Ducks fans/Ducks writers/National Canadian writers/Boudreau/Ducks teammates say about him before you make posts like this?
 

IcedCapp

Registered User
Aug 7, 2009
35,933
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You're right. It's just frustrating. Especially when you read comments like this:



Why don't you watch a Ducks game or read what Ducks fans/Ducks writers/National Canadian writers/Boudreau/Ducks teammates say about him before you make posts like this?

that's why I don't read comments like that.

People who make those sorts of comments, they aren't going to watch a Ducks game, they aren't going to watch a Penguins game for Heaven's Sake, they aren't going to read an article and they aren't going to look at advanced stats and have their minds changed.

If you say 'look at Despres fenwick and corsi in Anaheim" he'd be like 'yea, but he's playing with Fowler, on a better team!"

If you say, "look what the Ducks and their coaches and their fans are saying," he'd just say, "Yea, but of course they'll say that!"

If you say, "go back and watch Despres' earlier game with Pittsburgh, look at his advanced stats with the Penguins", he'd just say, "I trust my own eyes to make opinions, thank you."

If you say, "hey, look, he's playing 18-20 minutes a night, he had like 250 hits, 100+ blocks, and 23pts, all at even strength" he'd just come up with some other nonsensical, unarguable strawman.

The level of interest people like that have in sharing opinions, conversing, and being moved on a topic is less than zero. May as well talk to TteoT about Pascal Dupuis being a good hockey player.
 

mpp9

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Dec 5, 2010
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Despres' ice time was trending upward. Will definitely be interesting to see if he averages over 20 minutes in a deep playoff run.
 

IcedCapp

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Aug 7, 2009
35,933
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Despres' ice time was trending upward. Will definitely be interesting to see if he averages over 20 minutes in a deep playoff run.

I'm not sure when playing 18-20 minutes a night at 23-years old became an insult.

I've never met anyone with a serious understanding of hockey who expects a 23-year old Dman to be hitting his peak at that age. If they are able to play more than 20 minutes a night at a high level, they aren't "good", they are freaks.

Pouliot hasn't proven he can do that (and that's no knock against him)

And, I'm sorry to say this, because I know it'll piss a lot of people off, but Maatta has yet to prove it, too. Now, I fully expect him to get there, but he's not there yet.

The issue Despres has is, he's been in the NHL forever, but rarely playing. If the org had simply given him 15 minutes a night in the lockout-shortened year (when I felt he deserved to be playing) and then upped that the following year, we wouldn't be having all of these discussions.
 

mpp9

Registered User
Dec 5, 2010
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I'm not sure when playing 18-20 minutes a night at 23-years old became an insult.

I've never met anyone with a serious understanding of hockey who expects a 23-year old Dman to be hitting his peak at that age. If they are able to play more than 20 minutes a night at a high level, they aren't "good", they are freaks.

Pouliot hasn't proven he can do that (and that's no knock against him)

And, I'm sorry to say this, because I know it'll piss a lot of people off, but Maatta has yet to prove it, too. Now, I fully expect him to get there, but he's not there yet.

The issue Despres has is, he's been in the NHL forever, but rarely playing. If the org had simply given him 15 minutes a night in the lockout-shortened year (when I felt he deserved to be playing) and then upped that the following year, we wouldn't be having all of these discussions.

This board has been calling him a top 4 D-man right now. I would say if he can maintain 20 minutes or so of ice time throughout a long playoff run, I'd say those people were right.

If his ice time dips, then he's not there quite yet.
 

IcedCapp

Registered User
Aug 7, 2009
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This board has been calling him a top 4 D-man right now. I would say if he can maintain 20 minutes or so of ice time throughout a long playoff run, I'd say those people were right.

If his ice time dips, then he's not there quite yet.

he's a top-4 ES Dman. He doesn't get the ice time that other Ducks' Dmen get because he doesn't play on the PP.

I think, if you play with Fowler at ES for the entire playoffs (and he may not, I know they want to get Wisniewski back in there) then he's... really darn close.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

Registered User
Jan 29, 2004
34,273
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Going into the playoffs with Letang, Scuderi + 4 rookies won't win you many playoff games.

The Ducks have four blueliners 23 and younger in their top six and they just missed winning the President's trophy by four points. Then they swept their way to the second round.

The last time I checked, the Pens have gotten past the second round once in the last 6 yrs.
 

ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
107,023
67,649
Pittsburgh
The Ducks have four blueliners 23 and younger in their top six and they just missed winning the President's trophy by four points. Then they swept their way to the second round.

The last time I checked, the Pens have gotten past the second round once in the last 6 yrs.

And goodness... how is Calgary winning anything. :laugh: They lose their letang and get better. On top of that - they developed talent and believed in guys who put up 30 pts.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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Jan 29, 2004
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And goodness... how is Calgary winning anything. :laugh: They lose their letang and get better. On top of that - they developed talent and believed in guys who put up 30 pts.

Their all rookie line won the game for them last night and had a phenomenal series. They were being played in all situations.

Who knew rookies could help you win?

Sucks their mistakes count though and slow, aging vets don't make mistakes. Scuderi didn't pass pucks right to Rags, Kunitz didn't bobble passes and kill his line, Martin tied up sticks all series and Lovejoy was a yeoman on defense.
 

Sideline

Registered User
May 23, 2004
11,110
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And goodness... how is Calgary winning anything. :laugh: They lose their letang and get better. On top of that - they developed talent and believed in guys who put up 30 pts.

They drafted an undersized US High School forward in the 4th round that spent the next 3 years playing college hockey. Too bad those guys never work out.
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
35,587
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Their all rookie line won the game for them last night and had a phenomenal series. They were being played in all situations.

Who knew rookies could help you win?

Sucks their mistakes count though and slow, aging vets don't make mistakes. Scuderi didn't pass pucks right to Rags, Kunitz didn't bobble passes and kill his line, Martin tied up sticks all series and Lovejoy was a yeoman on defense.

I'm not sure which line you mean, but Calgary doesn't have an all-rookie line.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Hudler
rookie-young-veteran

Bennett-Backlund-Colborne
rookie-young vet-young vet

Ferland-Stajan-Jones
rookie-vet-vet

Bollig-Jooris-Raymond
tough guy-rookie-vet


That's what they're using lately. And it works. They seem to have the right mix.

We need this type of mix, but it'll never happen under the current regime's watch I'm afraid.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

Registered User
Jan 29, 2004
34,273
19,352
I'm not sure which line you mean, but Calgary doesn't have an all-rookie line.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Hudler
rookie-young-veteran

Bennett-Backlund-Colborne
rookie-young vet-young vet

Ferland-Stajan-Jones
rookie-vet-vet

Bollig-Jooris-Raymond
tough guy-rookie-vet


That's what they're using lately. And it works. They seem to have the right mix.

We need this type of mix, but it'll never happen under the current regime's watch I'm afraid.

Ya my bad I meant the Monahan line. I keep thinking he is still a rookie for some odd reason. Hudler has six points I believe, but he isn't a rookie either.

Even though I'm an idiot, with Wotherspoon I believe they have five rookies in the lineup. So the point still stands.
 
Aug 4, 2008
5,234
2,158
Rochester, NY
Martin is and was a legit #2 Dman, capable of playing close to 30 minutes and helped Letang elevate his game to Norris caliber. Despres is a 4/5 Dman, who the 2 coaching regimes and front office regimes did not think highly of. Despres can't compare to Martin any facet of the game.

Even IF that were the case, Martin is gone next year, and now Despres is too. They could have kept one of them, and even added to the roster in the process. Instead all they have to show for either is Ben Lovejoy.
 

PensFanSince1989

Registered User
Oct 25, 2008
10,578
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he's a top-4 ES Dman. He doesn't get the ice time that other Ducks' Dmen get because he doesn't play on the PP.

I think, if you play with Fowler at ES for the entire playoffs (and he may not, I know they want to get Wisniewski back in there) then he's... really darn close.

He's had 1 Playoff game where he was in top 4 in ES time. Others, he was 5th, 6th and one basically tied with Stoner for 5th/6th. The game where he was 4th, was the most recent, so it will be interesting to see if they keep that trend, or if like in the regular season with him, he'd see a jump in ice time and then follow it with lower ice times.

Despres is a good player with a good ceiling. But this board continues to obsess with him. Yes, I get it, a lot of you use him to point out the broader issues with the team and management.

Others just can't let him go. Get over it. He's no longer on the Penguins.
 

Fordy

Registered User
May 28, 2008
26,813
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He's had 1 Playoff game where he was in top 4 in ES time. Others, he was 5th, 6th and one basically tied with Stoner for 5th/6th. The game where he was 4th, was the most recent, so it will be interesting to see if they keep that trend, or if like in the regular season with him, he'd see a jump in ice time and then follow it with lower ice times.

Despres is a good player with a good ceiling. But this board continues to obsess with him. Yes, I get it, a lot of you use him to point out the broader issues with the team and management.

Others just can't let him go. Get over it. He's no longer on the Penguins.

i'll never let it go just cuz i like annoying the type of person that doesn't have a problem with losing a simon despres
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,721
46,699
I'm not sure which line you mean, but Calgary doesn't have an all-rookie line.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Hudler
rookie-young-veteran

Bennett-Backlund-Colborne
rookie-young vet-young vet

Ferland-Stajan-Jones
rookie-vet-vet

Bollig-Jooris-Raymond
tough guy-rookie-vet


That's what they're using lately. And it works. They seem to have the right mix.

We need this type of mix, but it'll never happen under the current regime's watch I'm afraid.

If the Pens organization were running Calgary's current lineup, Bennett would be scratched, Ferland would be scratched with the occasional game when the Pens were on the brink of losing, and Gaudreau would be playing on the 4th line, being taught how to play like Craig Adams.

Honestly, watching not just Calgary, but pretty much every other team in these playoffs and seeing the roles they're using youngsters/rookies in, and comparing it to the Pens just pisses me off so much.
 

Ugene Magic

EVIL LAUGH
Oct 17, 2008
54,335
18,765
Pittsburgh
If the Pens organization were running Calgary's current lineup, Bennett would be scratched, Ferland would be scratched with the occasional game when the Pens were on the brink of losing, and Gaudreau would be playing on the 4th line, being taught how to play like Craig Adams.

Honestly, watching not just Calgary, but pretty much every other team in these playoffs and seeing the roles they're using youngsters/rookies in, and comparing it to the Pens just pisses me off so much.

If the Pens were running the Calgary Flames they would be year two into a "complete rebuild."

Bennett would still be Beau brittle.

Those teams are not glued to top generational talent paying them below market value high deals.

Also, hows their health? All those other teams, do they have multiple top players out in any given position.

Yeah... this place sure does put the cart before the horse.
 
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