Post-Game Talk: Rangers 2, Pens 1 (OT) - And So Begins Our Summer of Discontent

[Shaftception]

If the Pens were running the Calgary Flames they would be year two into a "complete rebuild."

Bennett would still be Beau brittle.

Those teams are not glued to top generational talent paying them below market value high deals.

Also, hows their health? All those other teams, do they have multiple top players out in any given position.

Yeah... this place sure does put the cart before the horse.

This sounds like it's supposed to be a negative. Shame on teams that are capable of winning without the likes of malkin and letang. Who's players aren't eventually injured for one reason or another every single year.

Maybe a reason for pitt's struggles are because two of their stars they rely on are chronically injured every year for different reasons that keep them out for 20 games a season or hamper their performance for the rest of it. This isn't even fluke injuries like what happened to crosby, malkin and letang simply can't stay healthy for an entire year anymore. Concussions, knees, shoulders, what have you, there's always something with these two.

So complaining about other teams not having to deal with injuries to top players is pretty laughable, like they should be ashamed for not relying on annually injury prone players to build their team around. This team and it's stars are going to be injured every year they play so you better get used to it if you're not already, quote this after next year's playoff elimination (if they even make it), and I bet it'll be just as relevant then as it is now.

Oh but johnston's still a good coach regardless of winning one total game in the playoffs and collapsing down the stretch, because his system can't be run successfully with all the injuries they dealt with. Well boo hoo, they should bring in a coach who's system doesn't rely on having no injuries to crucial positions, cause it's going to happen next year, and the year after that. And it's not pessimism or a bandwagon attitude to say so, it's reality.

 

[IcedCapp]

I wanted to circle back to something earlier, sorry, it's Despres related:

the notion that two coaching staffs gave up on Despres is... interesting.

Earlier, an article was posted in the Despres thread. This article included quotes from Boudreau, basically saying, "I didn't know anything about this guy when we got him, I thought he was going to be a #7 for us, just a green guy" (paraphrasing).

I think it's fairly obvious (this is just one example to support my next statement) that not every deal is made with complete communication/approval from the coaching staff.

If you note, Rutherford never said, "our coaches wanted this" or "this was made with the coaches and the GMs" he said, "the AGMs pushed for this move."

That, plus various "whispers" that have been posted here, seem enough to show that the coaching staff may not have "gone to bat" for Simon, but they also didn't "give up" on him.

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

In terms of these playoffs Despres is 5th on the Ducks in ES TOI (close to 4th), 4th in SH TOI, and last in TOI per game.

Looks like he's playing what most of the reasonable posters said about him, that he's a #4/5 Dman RIGHT NOW. Trading away your #2 Dman so Despres could fill shoes he's not ready to fill is dumb. Even more so considering that the Pens would have likely needed to make a trade at the deadline for a vet Dman.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I'm not sure when playing 18-20 minutes a night at 23-years old became an insult.

I've never met anyone with a serious understanding of hockey who expects a 23-year old Dman to be hitting his peak at that age. If they are able to play more than 20 minutes a night at a high level, they aren't "good", they are freaks.

Pouliot hasn't proven he can do that (and that's no knock against him)

And, I'm sorry to say this, because I know it'll piss a lot of people off, but Maatta has yet to prove it, too. Now, I fully expect him to get there, but he's not there yet.

The issue Despres has is, he's been in the NHL forever, but rarely playing. If the org had simply given him 15 minutes a night in the lockout-shortened year (when I felt he deserved to be playing) and then upped that the following year, we wouldn't be having all of these discussions.

I don't disagree, as the development curve for every player is different. Not being given huge amounts of ice time shouldn't be held against him as Despres is still developing and was playing behind a good group of Dmen in both Pittsburgh and Anaheim. However, there have been people on this board who have said Despres will become a top-25 Dman, and pretty much every one of those were regularly getting 20+ minutes a night by age 23.

 

[MeticulouslyDishevel]

Just noticed that Adams didn't talk to the media either.

 

[cygnus47]

Is that a pink neck tattoo on Ehrhoff or a brace/tape?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

If the Pens were running the Calgary Flames they would be year two into a "complete rebuild."

Bennett would still be Beau brittle.

Those teams are not glued to top generational talent paying them below market value high deals.

Also, hows their health? All those other teams, do they have multiple top players out in any given position.

Yeah... this place sure does put the cart before the horse.

Calgary's without their Norris-trophy caliber defender and arguably team MVP, plus a very solid winger in Lance Bouma.

So, uh, their best defender is out, their most physical winger who can also chip in 15+ goals is out, and they still won a playoff series in 6 games. The Pens' best defender is out and they couldn't score more than 1 goal in 4 out of 5 games.

You should watch other teams a bit more. You'd know more about their rosters that way.

 

[cygnus47]

Calgary's without their Norris-trophy caliber defender and arguably team MVP, plus a very solid winger in Lance Bouma.

So, uh, their best defender is out, their most physical winger who can also chip in 15+ goals is out, and they still won a playoff series in 6 games. The Pens' best defender is out and they couldn't score more than 1 goal in 4 out of 5 games.

You should watch other teams a bit more. You'd know more about their rosters that way.

Uh. Our THREE best defensemen were out. Not one. Not to mention Geno, Perron were injured.

 

[DegenX]

So, if CMFA is actually not returning (I'll believe it when I see it) ... will Hörnqvist switch from 72 to 27?

 

[MeinerEiner]

Is that a pink neck tattoo on Ehrhoff or a brace/tape?

I´m pretty sure it´s kinesio tape.

 

[radapex]

I would like to know who Sid considers to be part of the core.

Probably the same as Lemieux & Burkle - Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Fleury. Then you've got the extremely complimentary pieces like Hornqvist and Maatta who won't be going anywhere unless a ridiculous offer comes in.

 

[radapex]

Martin has had his bags packed since December. Now they lose him for nothing.

It's probably a good thing they didn't move him by (or at) the deadline given the lack of Letang, Ehrhoff, and Maatta.

 

[Shady Machine]

In terms of these playoffs Despres is 5th on the Ducks in ES TOI (close to 4th), 4th in SH TOI, and last in TOI per game.

Looks like he's playing what most of the reasonable posters said about him, that he's a #4/5 Dman RIGHT NOW. Trading away your #2 Dman so Despres could fill shoes he's not ready to fill is dumb. Even more so considering that the Pens would have likely needed to make a trade at the deadline for a vet Dman.

Huh? What are you talking about trading away #2 dman?

 

[Shady Machine]

Uh. Our THREE best defensemen were out. Not one. Not to mention Geno, Perron were injured.

Maatta has been out all year. They had plenty of time to make up for his loss. For some odd reason they CHOSE to trade away his replacement (Despres) for a worse veteran defenseman. That should not be used as an excuse. It's their damn fault they made their defense worse.

 

[Shady Machine]

It's probably a good thing they didn't move him by (or at) the deadline given the lack of Letang, Ehrhoff, and Maatta.

Yeah probably but who cares now? They weren't a playoff contender anyway.

 

[Penguins23]

Yeah probably but who cares now? They weren't a playoff contender anyway.

Exactly. If we had traded Martin we probably wouldn't have wasted assets on Winnik so we'd be two draft picks richer plus whatever Martin would have fetched.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Uh. Our THREE best defensemen were out. Not one. Not to mention Geno, Perron were injured.

I hope you're not including Ehrhoff in that. Even when he was healthy, he was at best average, at worst looking ineffective. And Maatta was gone after 20 games. The club had 62 games to do something about making up for his loss. It's not like he went down at the trade deadline and gave them no time to recover from his loss.

As for Geno and Perron being injured, they were healthy enough to play. So you can't use them as an excuse since I'm sure Calgary also has a bunch of guys who have bumps and bruises, but aren't serious enough to actually miss games.

 

[ColePens]

It was a PERFECT year to play youth, obtain draft picks, and prepare for next year.

Instead...We hurt our chances this year and ruined next year.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

In terms of these playoffs Despres is 5th on the Ducks in ES TOI (close to 4th), 4th in SH TOI, and last in TOI per game.

Looks like he's playing what most of the reasonable posters said about him, that he's a #4/5 Dman RIGHT NOW. Trading away your #2 Dman so Despres could fill shoes he's not ready to fill is dumb. Even more so considering that the Pens would have likely needed to make a trade at the deadline for a vet Dman.

That phrasing makes it seem like there is a larger disparity between Despres and his teammates than there actually is. Ice-time is actually spread out pretty evenly amongst most of the d-men in all situations.

 

[IcedCapp]

That phrasing makes it seem like there is a larger disparity between Despres and his teammates than there actually is. Ice-time is actually spread out pretty evenly amongst most of the d-men in all situations.

Of course it does. Consider the source.


Paul Martin is "THE PENGUINS #2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dman!~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" because... that's how the coaches use him.

Simon Despres, for example, was the Pens' #6 Dman. Because that's how the coaches use them.

Evgeni Malkin is the Penguins #2 Center, because, again, that's how he's used.

I included Malkin in there so that my point was the furthest thing from subtle: being played in a position by a coach technically makes you "that", but it does not mean that's where you should be played.

Is Craig Adams an elite penalty killer, simply because Mike Johnston says he is and uses him as one would use an elite PKer?

Same question for Rob Scuderi.

Paul Martin is not a #2 dman. He may have been, at one point in time, but if there's anything we learned from this season, it's that the more is put on Paul Martin's plate, the worse he gets.

That's not "#2" material. And that's certainly not someone I want to build my future around.

If you give me the choice between Simon Despres' career moving forward, and Paul Martin's career moving forward, I'll take Simon Despres 10/10.

We already know what we're getting with Paul Martin: soft play and a power player murderer (Penguins power play). And a 4-1 loss to the Rangers.

This isn't hindsight. Many people said to move Martin before the year. At the start of the year. Through the year. And at the TDL. There was a reason for this. Because most intelligent people could see this coming.

The fact that there are still people who claim to have watched Paul Martin's tenure with the Penguins, who watched this season, and who watched the playoffs and think "there's a guy I want to sign to a new contract" just ... well. okay.

Simon Despres is about a decade younger, is bigger, ... I don't know if he's a better skater, but he's probably not worse, is physical, has a better shot, and is a shot suppression machine. His possession numbers are good. Anything you look at with Despres, whether it's conventional stats, advanced stats, or stupid stuff like "how well does Simon Despres' team do when Simon Despres is in the lineup" (which is almost-definitely meaningless) all say he's a damn good player.

Maybe if Bylsma (and later Johnston) would have force fed him the same minutes they force fed some other players who clearly couldn't handle them, you'd be calling Simon Despres something other than a "4/5". Probably not, though. When I visit a farm, i don't expect a pig to suddenly stop rolling around in his own ****.

 

[Asuna]

I'm not sure what's more enjoyable on this board than when IcedCapp goes on a Simon Despres rant.

 

[IcedCapp]

I don't disagree, as the development curve for every player is different. Not being given huge amounts of ice time shouldn't be held against him as Despres is still developing and was playing behind a good group of Dmen in both Pittsburgh and Anaheim. However, there have been people on this board who have said Despres will become a top-25 Dman, and pretty much every one of those were regularly getting 20+ minutes a night by age 23.

I don't know if Despres will ever be a top-25 Dman, especially in TOI, because he's probably never getting PP time in Anaheim. It's hard to consider any Dman an elite player if they aren't playing in all situations.

That said, I (and others) have maintained that Despres development was ****ed up by the Penguins. Not so much in the AHL, but once he got to the NHL.

If he had been given consistent #5/6 minutes in 2012-2013, or, at the very least, in 2013-2014, maybe he'd be ready to play a bigger role.

He may not have been a "stud" 2 years ago, or a year ago, or this year, but he was certainly better than some of the people the Penguins were playing ahead of him.

His NHL playing time basically started this year. That's ****ing insane.

 

[Human]

It was a PERFECT year to play youth, obtain draft picks, and prepare for next year.

Instead...We hurt our chances this year and ruined next year.

the last Shero/Bylsma season was perfect for that. you can't expect a new regime to come in and play the young guys when it wants to prove itself. which is exactly why next season they will screw over the youngsters again...

 

[wej20]

Despres wasn't going to be a stud #1 dman but I'd be surprised if he doesn't turn into a two-way 2nd pairing physical dman who can contribute in all situations.

 

[The Old Master]

Despres wasn't going to be a stud #1 dman but I'd be surprised if he doesn't turn into a two-way 2nd pairing physical dman who can contribute in all situations.

and is something we need badly (the physical part)