Post-Game Talk: Ranger Danger, Pens get shut out 3-0

[Jag68Sid87]

Obviously he's just citing a certain type of player, but maybe a guy like Jussi Jokinen as a more grounded example? That type of player isn't a burner but can play the game and produce points, and they have reasonable contracts. Stempniak's name came up in another context as an even more affordable type of guy. We need a couple more of those and a couple less Kuhnackls, at least in terms of scoring.

Of course what we actually need is a young budget player filling a role or two like that but that's another conversation.

Any examples of players we could actually acquire? Cause I'm blanking on any.

I agree we definitely should acquire someone with a scoring touch.

Yes, we need cheap scoring talent. How do you acquire that? Well, you can't if you keep throwing away high draft picks. Which, again, is why I want to miss the playoffs.

The Jokinen's and Stempniak's of the world are solid examples, but you have to get them BEFORE free agency because once they hit the market they no longer become viable options because they won't give you cap relief.

So basically, it's a combination of rejects/projects and the draft. We tried this year with both options...Plotnikov and Sprong. Which goes to show that the coach is also a very important factor here.

If your coach prefers Kevin Porter over Daniel Sprong or Sergei Plotnikov, it doesn't really matter.

Where is there a Luc Robitaille that's available?

The speed thing is taking a Hagelin over a Perron (and I wasn't happy with the trade at the time), not a Grabner over Robitaille.

I only bring up the speed thing because it has clearly become an identity for the Pens and has been successful over the last stretch run. It's obviously not the only way to win, but I'd take a speedy guy over a skill guy that can't score.

Well Perron is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Everybody hated on the guy for months. Was he worth a 1st rounder? No. But had we left him the hell alone, put him on LW next to Crosby and Hornqvist and just let him do his thing, he would have never been traded. We placed him in a position to fail and he did.

I like Hagelin. But he can't score goals to save himself. I don't have a problem having him on this team, but to play him anywhere above the third line is foolhardy.

And what do you mean a skill guy who can't score? What skills are you talking about? If a guy is a scorer and he's not scoring, that's a problem. But usually, if you acquire guys who can score, they do.

Teams that win build around a particular concept. They overload on one or two things that other teams are incapable of matching. If they have an unbeatable goaltender, maybe they stack defensive players to reinforce that (Devils, historically). If they have guys who make quick decisions, they get rid of anyone who doesn't (Chicago with Pirri and the Hayes brothers). If they have bruisers, they intimidate you and play psychological games (Boston, for years). If they have big players, they lean on you and win 7 game wars of attrition that you'll be more damaged by than they will (Los Angeles).

It's less that speed is the ideal concept for the Penguins to build around, so much as it's the only thing they have the personnel to build around. If we were to angle toward becoming like the Kings (which is what I want, in an ideal world); that's a five or more year process.


Detroit Red Wings with Luc Robitaille were a tough out because every line had at least two guys intuitively capable of beating a goaltender. You could out-shoot them 40 to 13 and lose 4-3.

2016 Pittsburgh Penguins with Luc Robitaille are a bunch of fast guys and a slow guy. That doesn't get you anywhere. The roster works at cross purposes with itself.

I'm glad you brought this up. Because I completely agree. And since Crosby and Malkin have been here, we've NEVER actually built the type of team to win consistently. What can THIS team do with those two players that would separate themselves from the pack? Score. At will. Rutherford had the right idea last summer, he wanted to build four lines of offense. His coaches haven't followed suit. The previous coach wanted to defend, this coach wants to win the Dan Bylsma lookalike award and play an all-out speed game without creativity.

Speed isn't going to break through a big defensive outfit when they're on their game. Creativity, skill and talent will.

Every time we THINK we have the type of explosive offense this team needs to win regularly, we trade somebody, demote somebody, lose somebody to injury and we're back to square 1.

I'd like to see us get more scoring on this team. Keep Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel, Pouliot and Bennett. Add Sprong next year. Add another LW to play in the top six. THEN have guys like Hagelin and Hornqvist and Fehr and Bonino and Sundqvist provide the support.

We have the goaltending locked down now for years. The blueline is missing a piece, but we at least have Letang, Maatta, Dumoulin and Pouliot to build around. Fill in the rest with whatever.

If we keep thinking Crosby and/or Malkin are going to save us, we'll wake up one day with two 35-year-old-plus superstars wondering if they can go on a 'hot streak' so that we can make the playoffs.

This cycle needs to stop. Miss the playoffs, get another stud offensive player, get a little bigger on D, shed some salary where you can in order to fit everybody in, and start building this teams' only REAL identity...which has been their identity since BEFORE Lemieux arrived even: offense, offense and more offense.

 

[IcedCapp]

Did you listen to nbc last night? Kunitz's reputation league wide is muuuuuuuuuuch higher than on this board.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Yes and yes

At least they're consistently stupid. It's reassuring.

 

[Shady Machine]

Well Perron is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Everybody hated on the guy for months. Was he worth a 1st rounder? No. But had we left him the hell alone, put him on LW next to Crosby and Hornqvist and just let him do his thing, he would have never been traded. We placed him in a position to fail and he did.

I like Hagelin. But he can't score goals to save himself. I don't have a problem having him on this team, but to play him anywhere above the third line is foolhardy.

And what do you mean a skill guy who can't score? What skills are you talking about? If a guy is a scorer and he's not scoring, that's a problem. But usually, if you acquire guys who can score, they do.

I don't disagree with you on Perron being misused to a degree, but he deserves a lot of the blame for his lack of production.

As for skill guy who can't score I mean Perron vs Hagelin. What I'm saying is if you have a guy like Perron and he isn't producing, what good is he? Hagelin is overpaid but players like him are more valuable if they aren't producing than a Perron type.

You made the claim that speed guys are being obsessed about here and I'm saying speed has become a part of our identity and if you can have a guy that has speed over a guy with skill that's struggling to produce, I'd take the speed guy.

The general point is when we look at targets, we need to look at what they are doing right now and how they fit into the puzzle. If there's a slow offensive guy out there, he damn well better put the puck in the net with regularity or he is of little use to this team.

 

[Shady Machine]

Did you listen to nbc last night? Kunitz's reputation league wide is muuuuuuuuuuch higher than on this board.

The problem is Kunitz' reputation with the Penguins is probably even higher.

 

[IcedCapp]

The problem is Kunitz' reputation with the Penguins is probably even higher.

Sure, but if they ever do move him, people will be surprised at the return.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Sure, but if they ever do move him, people will be surprised at the return.

Auston Matthews?!

 

[cygnus47]

Sure, but if they ever do move him, people will be surprised at the return.

It's really such a shame that he's so ingrained in the Penguins ethos. It's just like Orpik, there could not be more of a disparity between his actual value and his perceived value (thanks to PIT media and 'intangibles'). I have no doubt we could get a younger player who was at least equally good in a 1-for-1 trade. He's a perfect trade candidate but the team will never do it.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

It's really such a shame that he's so ingrained in the Penguins ethos. It's just like Orpik, there could not be more of a disparity between his actual value and his perceived value (thanks to PIT media and 'intangibles'). I have no doubt we could get a younger player who was at least equally good in a 1-for-1 trade. He's a perfect trade candidate but the team will never do it.

Yeah, it sucks. I think it, unfortunately, goes something like

Pens perceived value of player > other teams' perceived value of player > actual value of player

 

[Penguinator]

Kunitz ain't moving, sadly. I mean, either Crosby keeps the beast mode on & we make PO while Kunitz still lazily stacks it up alongside him -or- it doesn't look like we're going to make PO because Crosby slows down for whatever reason & so does Kunitz by association. Time is running short 'till TDL, it'd be nothing less than a ****ing miracle if JR can swap him, even in a package and this is assuming org would actually want to ship him.

But good to know Kunitz still has some decent trade value out there, at this point in time.

 

[The Old Master]

You don't make a move for Kessel and give up in 50 games. I still think patience is needed here. Unless someone wants to give you a hell of a return for Kessel, you're a worse team without him. He's not producing like we want, but he's still going to put up 50+ points. Can we get that in a replacement for him?

I would give him a "little" more time. but there comes a time when you need to just move on.......while I might not trade him, I would be putting out feelers......and if the right offer came along.....bam!

 

[Hossa die Waldfee]

Everyone on this board may think they need a top-6 LW, but they don't. I can't see them addressing the top-6 before the draft at the earliest.

Do they think that Kunitz was dragged down by Johnston just like Sid? That would make them look pretty stupid. Or do they think Sid can carry Kuni and Horny enough to produce in the post season?

 

[BeautiPhil]

Kunitz for Nichushkin or Honka. Dallas can gear up for the playoffs with veteran intangible experience while we get a young high upside player

Please

 

[Shrimper]

We're going to have to find a way to do better against Lundqvist, we're probably going to face him in the play-offs.

 

[yuri28]

Team was definitely missing Geno but i prefer him to fully seal his injury and rest and come back at full form rather than get the Geno we got in last few weeks.
He was definitely not playing like number 71.

 

[#66]

We're going to have to find a way to do better against Lundqvist, we're probably going to face him in the play-offs.

He lives nd dies on his knees. Why the Pens dont back off the net and pick corners Ill never know??? At the very least dont be so net front... Make plays to the far side post and force him to move from side to side.

Starting to wonder about Sullivan and playoff adjustments?

 

[The Old Master]

He lives nd dies on his knees. Why the Pens dont back off the net and pick corners Ill never know??? At the very least dont be so net front... Make plays to the far side post and force him to move from side to side.

Starting to wonder about Sullivan and playoff adjustments?

not sure we have the players to hit the corners.

 

[plaidchuck]

As it is now even if they miss the playoffs, barring a miracle they'll get a mid 1st round round pick which is as much of a crap shoot as a 3rd rounder.

 

[FDR]

If i were another team facing us in the playoffs, i'd put 2 guys on Sid at all times and trust that neither Kunitz nor Hornqvist can create their own shots. I'd bet that team shuts us down rather easily.

The playoffs are just different. Called differently as well unfortunately. We can't rely on PP opportunities or Sid shooting up the ice consistently on breakaways. It's all about dirty goals and not missing the few chances when they actually come. We stink at capitalizing on our chances.

 

[billybudd]

I'm glad you brought this up. Because I completely agree. And since Crosby and Malkin have been here, we've NEVER actually built the type of team to win consistently. What can THIS team do with those two players that would separate themselves from the pack? Score. At will. Rutherford had the right idea last summer, he wanted to build four lines of offense. His coaches haven't followed suit. The previous coach wanted to defend, this coach wants to win the Dan Bylsma lookalike award and play an all-out speed game without creativity.

Speed isn't going to break through a big defensive outfit when they're on their game. Creativity, skill and talent will.

Every time we THINK we have the type of explosive offense this team needs to win regularly, we trade somebody, demote somebody, lose somebody to injury and we're back to square 1.

I'd like to see us get more scoring on this team. Keep Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel, Pouliot and Bennett. Add Sprong next year. Add another LW to play in the top six. THEN have guys like Hagelin and Hornqvist and Fehr and Bonino and Sundqvist provide the support.

We have the goaltending locked down now for years. The blueline is missing a piece, but we at least have Letang, Maatta, Dumoulin and Pouliot to build around. Fill in the rest with whatever.

If we keep thinking Crosby and/or Malkin are going to save us, we'll wake up one day with two 35-year-old-plus superstars wondering if they can go on a 'hot streak' so that we can make the playoffs.

This cycle needs to stop. Miss the playoffs, get another stud offensive player, get a little bigger on D, shed some salary where you can in order to fit everybody in, and start building this teams' only REAL identity...which has been their identity since BEFORE Lemieux arrived even: offense, offense and more offense.

"Creativity" is largely obsolete in the NHL on a team level. There are stray guys who have a foundation of that in their game (Kane, Gaudreau, Giroux), but the salary cap does not allow a team to collect enough of them for it to matter. The NHL is systemic. Formulaic. Painting outside the lines gets you burned way more than it works.

In the last 5 years, 2 things have resulted in a Stanley Cup--
1. do stuff quicker than the other team
2. win wars of attrition

In 4 of the 5 years before that it was won with depth. "I have Andrew Ladd and Justin Williams on my third line and you have Raffi Torres on your second."

The remaining team (Ducks) won wars of attrition.

Green-era Capitals hockey isn't going to win a Stanley Cup ever. I'm sorry because it's fun to watch, but it's the truth. Teams that win don't out-creative other teams. They out-execute them. There's no creativity advantage in executing a system. Size? Yeah. Psychology? It's happened. Speed? Sure. Quickness? Yep. But creativity? Oilers probably have the most of that and they finish dead last habitually because their x and o execution is terrible. Next would be Detroit and they get the exact same results that we do every year because creativity just isn't as important on a team level as a host of other things.

I mean, if we had Tyler Johnson, Aaron Ekblad and Gaudreau on ELCs, Giroux signed to Kunitz's contract, and Seguin for the price of Kessel, maybe we could do it, but we didn't draft all those guys and won't be drafting 5 such guys in the next 5 years no matter how many picks we have.

And even if you somehow managed to collect them at the right ages in the first place, you'd be broken up by the cap inside two years.

 

[Darth Vitale]

Kunitz for Nichushkin or Honka. Dallas can gear up for the playoffs with veteran intangible experience while we get a young high upside player

Please

Keep dreaming. The Stars have no urgent need to pressure those kids. Nuke is having an off year after missing most of last year with post-hip-surgery deal. He still has huge upside and they're not going to trade him anymore than SJ was going to trade Hertl last year just because he was having a rough go.

No sane GM would trade young high upside guys like that for Kunitz with half a season in the tank. I don't know that much about Honka but especially not Nichushkin. That's a pipe dream.

In any case this thread has veared from Post Game talk and as such has run its course. Closing.