OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: The Condemned of Altoona

[Dick Sledge]

Am I the only one who never cared for Harrison?

Decent player sure, I just never got behind him where I cared whether he was here or left.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I'm a big believer in Williams, and think that the underlying problem is moreso who will fill out the top of the rotation. Taillon and Musgrove are the best two bets on the team, but neither of them are huge strikeout or innings guys as of yet. I think you could say the same about Keller, who won't really register as relevant for another year anyways.

The other way to address starting pitching is by having a phenomenal bullpen. Obviously, Glasnow has had ups and downs, but if he could become a guy who gets used in a multi-innings high leverage role a couple times a week, then the lack of truly dominant front line starters is less of an issue.

Moreover, I'm always a little bit hesitant to talk too heavily in the language of 1,2,3,4,5 starter, etc., because these are abstract categories whose value usually seems to be about complaining how X pitcher isn't a #2 starter, etc. I know that they are useful shorthands, but I'm more talking about what these ideas mean relative to the entire league. There aren't 30 #1 guys, 30 #2 guys, etc.

What we could really use is consistency. Outside of Williams, I don't think the pitching has been a huge problem lately. The bullpen a couple of times, definitely, but in the recent slide, it's been a number of other issues too. If we get a return to consistency from the pitching, i.e., if a bunch of those guys pitch like "3s and 4s," then I think soon enough, we'll rattle off a couple 6-4 or 7-3 stretches. That will be just enough to stay barely relevant, but because the slide has continued (and could still be continuing) for so long, it won't do. We need a real hot streak, and unless some hitters get white hot, the only way that that kind of thing is likely is if we get a really incredible run from some pitchers.


Separate from this, I wonder what would happen if Nova is able to put up a really strong run of games. He won't have huge trade value, but could compete somewhat with a guy like Happ, i.e., a veteran who would give a contender some decent reliability for innings going down the stretch. With Kingham in AAA, Keller eventually knocking on the door, and Glasnow still in the bullpen, moving him even for a marginal return makes a lot of sense.

 

[Return of the Paek]

Am I the only one who never cared for Harrison?

Decent player sure, I just never got behind him where I cared whether he was here or left.

I care because he is the best option we have at 2nd base right now. If we had good options to replace him, then I would be okay trading him FOR VALUE. However, I don't think we get much back for him other than financial flexibility.

 

[Dick Sledge]

I mean. I couldn't care less if he was on the roster or not.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Harrison would be 5x better if he could lay off the slider

 

[cheesedanish87]

Williams seems to have a big Cardinal problem, they always seem to hit him hard.

His last 3 starts have been against the Cards and a red hot LA lineup.

I don't think Williams is a top end starter or anything, but i think he will bounce back with some good starts.

 

[DanielPlainview]

To be true contenders the Pirates need Glasnow to figure out consistency in his delivery. That'll be the key to him having control over his fastball and getting through innings efficiently. A couple months ago I was hopeful he'd show improvement there and be ready for a spot start or something by mid-June. While he has definitely improved, he's still not where he needs to be, IMO. He's still letting fastballs get away and is struggling to get guys out before hitting a 2-2 or 3-2 count.

 

[Return of the Paek]

Moreover, I'm always a little bit hesitant to talk too heavily in the language of 1,2,3,4,5 starter, etc., because these are abstract categories whose value usually seems to be about complaining how X pitcher isn't a #2 starter, etc. I know that they are useful shorthands, but I'm more talking about what these ideas mean relative to the entire league. There aren't 30 #1 guys, 30 #2 guys, etc.

Obviously, I use these distinctions as a matter of convenience. I do agree with you that consistency is the most important attribute for this pitching staff. You could actually say the same for the hitting. After all, we have a decent amount of talented players, but they are wildly inconsistent which makes this a 75-win team if consistency is not found.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I think Harrison is a pretty useful player, and wouldn't want to trade him until the situation is forced a little bit more clearly. The offense took a nosedive as soon as he was injured, and while he's hard to get a precise read on, I think he brings a lot to the table that would be hard to replace.

I'm a little skeptical of entering into the seller's market simply because I don't know what viable trade is out there that would address our issues. Most of the variability on these team is really internal, in the sense of all of the following: beating projections, luck, health, and hitting on impact players.

The latter is a big place we've stumbled. Health and luck have been a factor for Taillon, but we need him to take the next step as the leader of this current core. Harrison and Cervelli could bring back some talent in a deal, and maybe Dickerson could too, but it doesn't outweigh how much I think we could use them if things went well for us in the immediate-term.

Most of the trade talk is a bit gloomy, because I think it boils down to talking around the fact that we're likely to remain trapped in mediocrity unless certain players turn into real impact players at their positions. The urgency to move veterans and so on is more present if you have a totally barren organization, but we seem to have players who are around average in spades.

Nova is an exception because I think we have the current depth to sustain losing him (and even if he's an easy scapegoat, he's a solid MLB pitcher), and probably could use the flexibility there to give Kingham a longer look at the very least, or to give Glasnow a look, etc. Even in the worst case scenario of trading Nova and losing one or two guys to injury, it's not like we'd be scrambling any more than most teams in that situation.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Decent lineup today. Not sure about Freese at cleanup but at least there's no Rodriguez

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Probably makes sense given that it's Corbin, and at least gives some righty lefty balance. I imagine that Moran is basically the regular cleanup spot for a while.

Luckily Jon Jay is not in the lineup for the DBacks, although Descalso is batting leadoff, so it's about the same.

Kang is hitting third and playing 3B for Indy. Will be interesting to watch if he gets some starts at SS.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Just heard a stat on the radio that of the 22 games since Meadows came up, 20 have featured Rodriguez and/or Polanco in the starting lineup.

It's just so f***ed.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Just heard a stat on the radio that of the 22 games since Meadows came up, 20 have featured Rodriguez and/or Polanco in the starting lineup.

It's just so ****ed.

Only Marte, Dickerson, and Cervelli (together) were in the lineup with him once. Our best hitters.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Kang 0-4 with 3 Ks

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Austin f***ing Meadows.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

If this game isn't a case of you can't predict baseball, I don't know what is.

Musgrove looks phenomenal. For fantasy baseball purposes I would be ok if Goldschmidt hit a solo HR.

 

[Return of the Paek]

Bell sucks. Can’t hit. Can’t field. Can’t run the bases. And for some reason, just randomly keeps falling over like a baby giraffe walking for the first time.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I will be very surprised if Musgrove doesn't respond. I hope we don't start another beanbag war with the Diamondbacks. Last thing we need right now.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I really do hate this kind of stuff, because it's basically just weird repressed machismo in a non-violent sport, but when you can just hit a guy in the ass and be done with it, I guess it's not a big deal.

Now with a pass ball, there's a runner on second, who scores on a single. Game is still a comfortable lead, but I guess this is why you argue not to worry about this BS. Musgrove still has a strong chance to get through this inning, but a couple bad bounces here and this inning could get the Diamondbacks right into the game again.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Unreal. That's why you don't randomly hit players to send an antiquated message. In a season of brutal losses, this one is going to be the worst. Absolutely dominating and putting up five runs against one of the top pitchers in baseball, no problems at all, on complete cruise control, and we're going to lose it.

The slide is never going to end.

 

[Return of the Paek]

Let’s call it for what it is though... the Pirates bullpen sucks. That’s the real issue. Not to mention Freese’s pathetic error.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Santana has been really good, although he made bad pitches both to Lamb and to Goldy.

Freese should definitely have made that play, and I think Bell actually kept his foot on the bag. The earlier review was a bad call as well, and we couldn't use it there. For me, it boils down to the decision to give them a free runner. Then a bad play happens, and all of a sudden we're in a huge problem situaton. Musgrove probably just cruises through the bottom of the order and maybe even gives you eight innings otherwise.

I will be utterly shocked if we win this game. Total, complete choke job, and we were lined up to have a fighting chance to take this series, too.

 

[Rich Nixon]

jesus I stayed up to watch this.

 

[Return of the Paek]

Why even pull mushrove there?

 

[DJ Spinoza]

This loss is the most inconceivably brutal one I can remember, and I've seen them all. I'm utterly floored by this team. Literally we were cruising, in total control, and then everything fell apart. This team is simply cursed and I envy anyone who has been able to tear themselves away from them.

I don't even know what else to say. How many more ways can they figure out how to lose?