OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Spring [training] is here!

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Empoleon8771

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Yeah I was going to say, the only prospect I can distinctly remember was a signability thing was Sanchez. In fact, I actually think the Pirates have a more recent track record in over-spending based on draft slot, because the last guy I can really remember is when the Pirates paid a boatload to Bell as a 2nd rounder.
 

ChaosAgent

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Idk if it's really relevant to the conversation, but I started thinking about it and wanted to share. The Pirates had their window to contend, it should have been like 2013-2018 but it ended in 2015 due to bad decisions by management, regression from players and ownership not investing more in the team. That was really their window, and there was no reasonable way to avoid the drop-off that came after that window.

Were there things that could have prevented the bottoming out that has occurred in the last 2 years? Of course there are. This team would be better right now had they kept Glasnow (who I don't think would have worked here unless Searage was fired, but w/e) and Meadows and also traded Cole for higher upside players. But even had they done that, how much better would they actually be right now? The rumored ask from the NYY for Cole was Andujar and Frazier. Would the team really be that much better right now had they done that instead?

That's why I kinda roll my eyes at the Nutting bashing at this point. The team just sucks and it was going to suck regardless of whether Nutting invested money in it or not. The problem with Nutting is that he didn't invest enough when the team is good, but investing more right now is an objectively bad decision. Him not investing more didn't make this team bad, it was going to be bad regardless of what decisions he made in 2015.

The only Nutting is cheap-type decision that backfired after 2015 was not resigning JA Happ and thus feeling forced to move Walker for Niese. But the biggest issues in 2016 were the huge regressions of Cutch and Liriano, the notable regression of Cole and Glasnow's failure to launch.
 

The Grim Reaper

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In 2009 I think they took Tony Sanchez because of signability reasons, which backfired. Both because of him and because the pitchers they bet on reinvesting his money with - Zack Von Rosenberg chief among them - all busted too.

Since then it's been BPA in the front office's mind every year. They've gotten it wrong with Newman, Tucker and Will Craig though.

I hate ownership as much as anyone but that's not happened very often. Tony Sanchez is the one obvious example, but I don't really think that's happened much.

Fair enough. It just seems like we rarely have players we drafted stay into their primes.
 

DanielPlainview

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I think Cutch's premature and rapid regression really sent the ballclub and Huntington careening. I think they were really banking on him being quite good for a few more years and their methods didn't leave much room for error, let a lone having one of the best players of his generation fall off like that. Really unprecedented. Still, I think it speaks to Huntington's inflexibility that they never really recovered from it.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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I know this year doesn't really matter, but using a Rule 5 guy in a 1-1 game in the 6th inning and leaving him out there to give up 5 and have the game put out of reach is really weird managing. There are plenty of opportunities to give Oviedo work and see what he has without literally throwing games away to do it.

I agree for the most part, and was pretty pissed with Shelton because he sort of set him up to fail. But I can also see the opposite view – Oviedo had been really good in his appearances, and was showing more and more confidence, plus I think the plan was for him to pitch at some point anyways, and I doubt we expected this game to be so close.

Even though it ended up putting the game out of reach, he didn't pitch too badly. Victim of bad BABIP luck with the second 2 runs, and in general, the issue seemed to be that he was tipping his offspeed vs fastball. Not a good outing but part of that job is taking some licks at times, and I do agree with the (obviously overly rosy view) broadcasters that his set of tools is intriguing.

I'm not sure, maybe the best approach would have been to go to RichRod right in that situation, who also seems like he was on tap to pitch tonight after several days down. Either way, this was an extremely lopsided matchup from the start.
 

Scandale du Jour

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Since the discussion has been respectful and has led to good conversion, I'll let stand.

As the regulars know, we are trying to keep the thread free of ownership talk because all it accomplishes is us going in circles.

We all agree that ownership could be better, however we choose to have constructive baseball discussion instead of constantly bitching. We have a great group of knowledgeable Buccos fans here and it is my duty to make sure they can discuss the team in peace. If you wanna bitch about ownership, there are plenty of platforms to do so.

That being said, I would like to thank everybody for keeping the discussion respectful. It ends this evening though, unless a current event justifies it. Conclude your arguments and let's move on.
 

DJ Spinoza

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I think Cutch's premature and rapid regression really sent the ballclub and Huntington careening. I think they were really banking on him being quite good for a few more years and their methods didn't leave much room for error, let a lone having one of the best players of his generation fall off like that. Really unprecedented. Still, I think it speaks to Huntington's inflexibility that they never really recovered from it.

I agree with this point – in general, I think the collapse in talent really hindered what Huntington had impressively built in a way that was due to bad luck to a great extent.

I think Huntington made some bad moves towards the very end, but – and I know I have repeated myself on this point ad nauseam – I also think it still gets underplayed just how much of a mandate Huntington had to stay competitive. I do think Huntington was pretty stubborn, which explains some of the bigger issues with the organization, but in terms of the decision-making, we now know that Nutting effectively would not let him rebuild or retool in his later years.

This is in contrast to Cherington, who has come in with an open slate to demolish whatever he needs to, total media support, the ability to hire a "just vibes" manager while we lose, etc etc. And the total revisionist history from people like Kovacevic is sickening. People just make stuff up about Huntington's early years, as though we should just ignore the facts, which are that he basically singlehandedly turned around a floundering franchise and built a consistent winner that had a real shot at winning the World Series during the 3 years it was good. Did he make mistakes? Yes, lots of them, but one other thing on this front that is kind of funny is how everyone is constantly going around and claiming that Huntington always sought AAAA players, which is just patently untrue. At the very beginning, he traded for Andy LaRoche, who ended up busting, but was a very highly touted prospect. At the very end, he made a minor trade that netted us Thomas who is now a high variance top-100 prospect.

In any case, in the end my assessment of him is definitely that he was too stubborn and inflexible in multiple ways, which didn't do him favors in terms of how to rebound from the bad luck. I think it was the right move to go in a new direction, especially with player development, pitching, and the implementation of analytics, etc., but the idea that Huntington was always so atrocious is just fabricated.
 
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Empoleon8771

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I think Cutch's premature and rapid regression really sent the ballclub and Huntington careening. I think they were really banking on him being quite good for a few more years and their methods didn't leave much room for error, let a lone having one of the best players of his generation fall off like that. Really unprecedented. Still, I think it speaks to Huntington's inflexibility that they never really recovered from it.

I definitely agree with this, but I'd also throw the entire pitching staff as a whole in this category too.

The pitching staff went from a 3.21 ERA and 3.36 FIP in 2015 to a 4.21 ERA and 4.30 FIP in 2016 and 4.22 ERA and 4.23 FIP in 2017. Combine that with the decline you had with offensive guys like Cutch (plus not properly replacing the offense of guys like Walker and Alvarez) made this team really crater.
 

ChaosAgent

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I definitely agree with this, but I'd also throw the entire pitching staff as a whole in this category too.

The pitching staff went from a 3.21 ERA and 3.36 FIP in 2015 to a 4.21 ERA and 4.30 FIP in 2016 and 4.22 ERA and 4.23 FIP in 2017. Combine that with the decline you had with offensive guys like Cutch (plus not properly replacing the offense of guys like Walker and Alvarez) made this team really crater.

Liriano was a case of "uh if you don't swing the guy only hits the strike zone like 25% of the time, so just stop swinging." And opponents did. He imploded. Then we paid prospects to get out of his deal.
 

NewAgeOutlaw

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I really think the fact that the Pirates have not developed a pure power hitter in decades doesn't get much attention. Who even was the last one? Cutch was good power-wise, but not great. Bay was developed by SD. Giles was developed by Cleveland. Bonds was going to be a freak no matter what.

Who was the last home run hitter this organization even developed? Dave Parker?
 

ChaosAgent

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Fair enough. It just seems like we rarely have players we drafted stay into their primes.

We won't see Meadows and Glasnow into their primes because we decided to "go for it."

It cuts both ways.

Also Glasnow needed a new pitching coach and arguably just any kind of change of scenery regardless.

Okay to @Scandale du Jour 's point...I'll stop. Thanks for the discussion, swing by any time. We expect things to heat up, comparatively speaking, when Hayes returns, the continued Leiter/Rocker stuff and the MILB season starting in 3 weeks.
 

DanielPlainview

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It's tough to say if Huntington was a victim of Coonelly or Nutting wanting him to perform miracles to remain competitive or if it was his own stubbornness. Either way, the previous front office obviously refused to accept that their hopes of remaining competitive died when Cutch regressed.

If they had accepted that and gone all-in on a rebuild, who knows. Maybe they still clean house in the minors and update their approach to development.

It's all depressing speculation
 
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ChaosAgent

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Against a dominant lefty like Snell, here's the lineup I'd like to see:

ss Newman
2b Difo
RF Evans
c Stallings
LF Reynolds
1B Moran
3b EGon
CF Alford
 

DJ Spinoza

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It's tough to say if Huntington was a victim of Coonelly or Nutting wanting him to perform miracles to remain competitive or if it was his own stubbornness. Either way, the previous front office obviously refused to accept that their hopes of remaining competitive died when Cutch regressed.

If they had accepted that and gone all-in on a rebuild, who knows. Maybe they still clean house in the minors and update their approach to development.

It's all depressing speculation

Yeah, I don't know exactly where I'd draw the line, but I think the problems were more of a "both/and" type of thing than an "either/or". My probably unhinged speculation is that Coonelly was the driver of the Archer trade. But setting aside those things, I think the organizational strategies are where we really got lapped. What had once been major advantages and undergirding reasons we were able to be competitive soon became either weaknesses (sinkers, the lower and inner part of the strike zone) or redundant (strong defensive catchers).

Huntington was able to cobble together winning teams from various sources and had a knack for making trades that were received in a middling to poor way but turned out great – I would put the Hanrahan, Melancon, Watson, and Luplow/Moroff trades in this bucket, at least. He actually fumbled moving some of his better pieces in a way that we/everyone is assuming Cherington hasn't, but in terms of brutal reality, it's quite possible that Peguero and Malone won't amount to much, etc. I hope not, but it's too early to say.

Where I hope Cherington can step things up is not just in developing the high end talent, but also in supplementing the roster with home grown players. We'll see how things play out here. For example, maybe Evans can turn into more than a short-term marvel, maybe Alford or Fowler turns it around, etc. But also hopefully he takes some shots in the draft. I'm not projecting this because I have no clue who any of the 2021 players are outside of a handful, but maybe he can target some specific skills in a college bat somewhere in the top-5 rounds and that player goes on to provide good depth and a strong side platoon, or something along those lines.

I think at the end of the day, Huntington probably could have done an all-in rebuild, but without overhauling the approach to player development, and specifically the organizational one-size-fits-all approach to pitcher development, it would have been somewhat moot. I like the early moves from Cherington for the most part, and I guess I'll remain curmudgeonly about how Huntington is dissed by many.


One last note, I know there was a lot of discussion about Keller recently and that most seem to be out on him, either to a great extent or just permanently. This is more speculation, but I have to wonder if his entire development was predicated on filling up the whole strike zone with his flat fastball, rather than getting comfortable taking the approach that lets it play the best. I say this because he clearly can beat hitters with it up in the zone and above it, whereas if he pitches lower, they can tee off on it and he also seems to not control it as well.

I think this was a particularly telling outcome from the other night which is extremely encouraging:



He also noticeably was throwing it only at the top of the zone or above it, only missing a handful of times. He needs to just keep leaning into that and hopefully continue to have success, so that he can pitch with aggressiveness and confidence. If he came up having a fastball that he could move around wherever, and nasty enough secondary stuff to have minor league hitters doubly twisted up, then the transition to needing to repeat the mechanics and pitch to specific locations probably explains a lot of the wildness and random hard hit balls, despite the fact that his stuff overall seems dominant.

tldr; I am now more optimistic than ever that Marin is helping him to unlock the right gameplan and mechanics to have success with his stuff. That would never have happened under Huntington/Searage.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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Against a dominant lefty like Snell, here's the lineup I'd like to see:

ss Newman
2b Difo
RF Evans
c Stallings
LF Reynolds
1B Moran
3b EGon
CF Alford

IMO Newman has been so awful that it's practically time to pull Tucker back into the mix. He makes contact but it's garbage contact 100% of the time, and he's not having any good ABs. Difo has been hot so I think he may get the start, that's a good call. Not sure how I'd line it up, but I'd keep Frazier in and have Difo at 3B, EGon at SS, and Evans in RF, with Alford over Fowler.

If EGon shows anything tonight, assuming he starts, then Newman should keep sitting.
 
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ImporterExporter

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Polanco so far:

4 for 29
12 K's (41% whiff rate)
1 XBH
6 BB's
.138/.286/.172

He's literally 28 for his last 186 dating back to last year.

That's a .151 BA for the bean counters. There are pitchers who bring as much value to the plate.

Dating back through 2019? We're up to 339 AB's. We have 65 hits (13 HR's and 29 XBH) in that frame for a .192 BA.

He's also struck out 126 times for a 37% whiff rate.

The man hasn't been an MLB regular since 2018.
 

NewAgeOutlaw

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Oviedo's problem yesterday was that he was low in the zone with his 4 seamer.

You can throw it 120 and it isn't gonna matter against MLB hitters if it is at the thigh.

Not sure if it was a control issue or if they wanted him to keep it down for some strange reason.
 

ImporterExporter

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Hate to be that guy, but I'm going to do it anyway; we need a few players like this mixed in with the legit upside guys to have a shot at 1st-overall.

I still think we'll run away with the worst record. The team just isn't good. It would take over the top performances from multiple pitchers and the odds of that happening are slim.

You also have to account for the fact guys who are actually solid MLB'ers (Frazier, Moran) won't be here very long this year so you'll have drop in production almost surely going to a bench talent or AAA call up.

I really want Hayes to be alright and back in action asap. He's the only real reason I was going to watch a lot of the games this year. I still tune in but my care factor is rather low haha.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Yikes. Hopefully Newman magically starts not being total garbage at the plate... seems like another game where not getting no hit will be a W.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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I'm not going to say that I think it's impossible we'll finish last, but if I had to put odds on it, I wouldn't go more than 5%. 3-7 is a bad stretch and will do you in if you repeat it several times, but it's also just been 10 games and a number of other teams have started off just as bad. The floor is pretty bad for this team, especially if Hayes has a setback, etc., but I think the most important thing is that there are several other very bad teams in MLB who play in divisions which are either better or much better than us.

Concretely, the Rangers, Mariners, Orioles, Tigers, Rockies, and Diamondbacks all look to be just about as bad as us on paper. I don't think we'll necessarily finish better than all of these teams, but the odds of "beating" all of them to the punch for pick 1.1 are pretty low. The Rangers, Orioles, and Rockies especially are three teams I think are very close to shoe-ins to finish below us in the standings. I think that some other rebuilding teams like the Giants, Marlins, and Royals may have issues and tougher divisions to handle which could lead to them being in the conversation.

If I were to make a guess right now, I'd say we'll end up somewhere in pick 5-9, with a strong likelihood of it being closer to 5 than 9.
 
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