OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Offseason at the Crossroads

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Winger for Hire

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I forget what I was reading, I think something on FG in the fantasy section, but I've actually come around to the idea that reviving his sinker will be the key for Archer.

Ray's the guy for that.

I really don't take great joy in bashing Ray as much as I do, but I can't help it when so many young pitchers stall under his care. He does a fine job when someone new come into the organization after a handful of year around the league (Happ, AJ, Frankie, pick a bullpen arm; I'm going with Holdzkum). It's just weird that so many young pitchers come up through the system with promise and flashing good to great things, barely scratch that ceiling once they his the MLB, move on then finally break through the barrier. It's a weird, weird thing to me.

I don't wholeheartedly want them to fire Ray, as I said he does great work with vets and bullpen arms, but I don't want them to keep going back to the same well that's poisoning them. I feel like they need a radical approach to their pitching coach position. Let Ray keep the title of Pitching Coach, but have him work mainly with the pen and incoming vets and bring in someone under him to be a Rotation Pitching coach (kind of like having a Defensive Coordinator and under him having a Linebacker, DLine, DBack, etc coach). Let that hire work with the starters, swingmen, and anyone who comes up through the minors.

With there being drastically different attitudes and approaches between a starter and reliever, I think it could be beneficial to the staff as a whole to have a guy working on each end while not putting a whole staff on the shoulders on one guy bouncing between the two worlds. Maybe the Pirates' philosophy still works, but only in small, one inning bursts. Ray can hammer that home and perfect it in the pen while Rotation Coach works on lengthening outings, maximizing your best pitches through a start, patterns for 2nd and 3rd times through the order, and stuff that would help maximize a starter's arsenal and usage.

Maybe I'm just shouting at clouds... I dunno.
 

DJ Spinoza

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No disagreement from me on that front. I'm hopeful that with Taillon's partial emergence from that framework, and the acquisition of some curveball heavy guys like Kela and Lyles, the situation might be changing a bit, but hard to say. Archer needs that approach, Williams probably benefits from Searage, and I'm not sure about Musgrove... Keller will be the real test, I think.

Looks like Tulo turned us down if this is to be believed: Quick Hits: Tulo, Napoli, Castellanos, Rays

Further down in the general rumors, Castellanos is exactly the kind of one year offensive boost we could use, but there's really no position for him and we're already generically covered with Chisenhall. But he is a pretty premium bat and probably can be had for not very much. Would be a perfect solution as a stopgap if the NL had the DH.
 

Winger for Hire

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Joe Sheehan: Newsletter Excerpt, January 3, 2019 -- "Bob Nutting and the Pirates"

"We focus on the Yankees and Cubs, the Phillies and Dodgers, but a team like the Pirates can not only sign Manny Machado without risking a loss, they are positioned to get more from the signing, based on the marginal wins he would add, than almost any other team. It’s teams like the Pirates refusing to take themselves seriously that is grating. The 2019 Marlins shouldn’t be spending money. The 2019 Royals shouldn’t be spending money. The 2019 Pirates should. That they’re just accepting 81 wins and fat checks should be more an embarrassment to MLB, and frankly to Bob Nutting, than it is."

I'm glad there's been more national guys looking to call out the Pirates by name.
 

ImporterExporter

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Joe Sheehan: Newsletter Excerpt, January 3, 2019 -- "Bob Nutting and the Pirates"

"We focus on the Yankees and Cubs, the Phillies and Dodgers, but a team like the Pirates can not only sign Manny Machado without risking a loss, they are positioned to get more from the signing, based on the marginal wins he would add, than almost any other team. It’s teams like the Pirates refusing to take themselves seriously that is grating. The 2019 Marlins shouldn’t be spending money. The 2019 Royals shouldn’t be spending money. The 2019 Pirates should. That they’re just accepting 81 wins and fat checks should be more an embarrassment to MLB, and frankly to Bob Nutting, than it is."

I'm glad there's been more national guys looking to call out the Pirates by name.

Thunderous applause. It's why I will not spend a dime on the Pirates until Nutting sells or opens the vault.

I think I'll be waiting a while.

Steelers are there as well with all the BS going on with them.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Probably not too much of a shocker, but Hayes, Craig, and Reynolds are all NRI for spring training:



I wonder if there's anything to read into the inclusion of Escobar, Weiman, and perhaps Waddell. Coupled with the Lyons signing (also a NRI technically, since it was a minor league signing), my best guess is that we might just see an open competition for a LHP spot in the bullpen, and either no signing at all, or a very late signing of somebody for cheap. Could be an indication that we'll just pretty much role with what we've got, and all hands on deck for either a trade for Ahmed or signing Galvis etc. In the grand scheme of things, not spending a small amount of money for a more likely-good bullpen arm is low on the list of things to complain about, but it seems like it would behoove us to have as strong a bullpen as possible, especially if the 5th start plan is Lyles/Kingham/opener stuff until Keller is ready.

I actually don't hate that idea, since Keller should be ready by midseason. The only intriguing option is Gray, and it appears that the Yankees could be holding off for a bit, maybe into the season. We're set up enough that we could revisit the idea of acquiring him much closer to spring training, and the Yankees could hurt themselves by waiting too long if they are actually dead set on dealing him, but teams like the Reds and Brewers would also still be interested in February or March, you would think, even if one signed Keuchel or made other trades.

It's SS and the RP spot that I don't see any need to dick around about. We seemingly lost out on Tulo, which is fine, but we still need decisiveness with the roster calls, and it's those three and a Cervelli situation. Trading Cervelli only makes sense if you turn around and sign somebody like Dozier or Gonzalez with the money (which would still keep the payroll exceedingly cheap, unless we signed Iglesias or something, and even then...), or if you are getting very good value like Taylor or Stripling. As I see it, heading into the rest of the offseason, the obvious thing to be worried about is that NH will try and cut a conservative, safer middle way, waiting around for a solution to the SS situation and moving Cervelli's contract but only in such a way that it laterally effects the team and gives us some more of that amazing financial flexibility.

There's a path where he makes some bolder trades, grabbing Ahmed/Taylor or Stripling, and invests a modicum of money into improving the depth and offense, but I'm hard pressed to say I can see him following it.
 

DJ Spinoza

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I was scrolling through my TL and actually got tricked by this (the first tweet, not the second, which I didn't see initially but am including here so I don't cause anyone to have the same fate). Good one, Steve-o.
 

Dread Pirate Roberts

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This sustained-mediocrity strategy might theory worth testing in a league like the NHL where mediocrity is all it takes to get into the playoffs. It might be worth trying in a league like the NFL, where the season is short enough that a lucky team could get in in front of a good one. In baseball, only a quarter of the teams actually get a chance in the playoffs (a glorified play-in game is not the same as actually being in the playoffs) and the 162+ game season smooths out the randomness enough that you can't really "just get lucky." You need one of the top teams in baseball just to have a shot.

Sustained mediocrity is dumb.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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I agree in general, although one thing I'd like to think more about is how to gauge and typify what makes the difference between the WC periphery of mediocre and above and below that. The obvious answer to me is having enough impact players spread around the team, without serious weaknesses. I could probably make this more precise by turning to some stats, but outside of a couple rough spells, the obvious problem with last year's team was the offensive production from pretty much the entire infield. It's within the realm of possibility that this will improve in 2019, but there doesn't seem to be much of a chance to get a real impact player (which is why Tulo, and to a much greater extent Segura, were so enticing).

I don't say this in order to totally sanction mediocrity, but it will be interesting to track what happens if the infield does at least creep back up closer to middle of the pack offensively. Last year's team did some important things right, starting with divisional play. We probably can't bank on a 5 game sweep of the Brewers again, but without any real backing other than gut instinct, solid and consistent starting pitching and a lock down bullpen seem like big ingredients to repeat that success.

Where I think things go most awry for the sustained-mediocrity approach is that we are simply too vulnerable towards the vicissitudes of a long season. This is a trite cliche that's true for almost all teams, but the wrong set of sequences can tilt things in a hurry for this team. Not only do we have to wonder about the C production, Polanco's return, but even in the event that the infielders produce better, we still seem too prone to extended stretches where offense is a tough slog, largely but not exclusively due to lack of power. A big injury or underperformance from one of the starters, or some bullpen troubles, and all of a sudden we can suffer some spiral stretches. I'll save myself and everyone else from rehashing those moments last year, but I think that's the biggest internal problem facing the team, and I think it can be chiefly attributed to coaching. It's probably a good argument to say that the team ends up somewhere vaguely in the consistent-mediocrity range no matter what, and while I agree, I also spent a ton of time watching last year's team, and they could have crawled into a WC game.

So I guess this runs the risk of being too easy on NH, but in a sense I don't think the sustained mediocrity baseline is a totally insane idea. I think his big problems are more in terms of specific issues, and also a generalized conservatism. I think it's a little too easy and too much of a strawman to say that the only viable approach is to totally go all in and then completely rebuild from scratch, because prospects are quite fickle in MLB and really rebuilding is easier said than done, especially when you won't utilize the payroll aggressively. Having said that, I think that besides a lackluster farm in terms of impact bats, the obvious issue is still that aggressiveness has been too lacking when it could really be utilized. Huntington has done some solid things to keep the team in an ok position and generally field a competitive team, but even with completely lined up controllable young talent and guys like Archer, Marte, Polanco all on controlled contracts, it's very obvious that this team only has a certain window and none of his words or actions since the Archer and Kela trades reflect that. Tim Williams had a good twitter thread to this effect earlier today or yesterday. The window will end after 2021 or 2022. With enough talent and some luck, maybe we'll tread water and be somewhat worse but still sustaining mediocrity, which is sort of the story of 2015-present. Is he going to repeat all the same mistakes?

I intended to type up a long hypothetical on moving Cervelli for value and then signing Grandal, but maybe I'll wait until January is at least in the teens to start getting on crazy levels of never gonna happen chess. The analytics wing of Pirates twitter seems to be all over Grandal, and while it's risky, I could see some logic to it. In particular, the rumor is that Grandal's suitors are dwindling, and that he may not be able to command more than the Mets offer of 4 years, 60 million that he turned down earlier in the winter. If you can actually flip Cervelli for some ok value and then turn around and make that kind of signing, though, it would be precisely the kind of aggressive gamble that NH never takes.

There's huge risk to giving a 30 year old catcher that much money, but it's not an unworkable amount of money, and spans the window that is currently open. It's a lot more affordable than a Machado, obviously, and especially if you get real value for Cervelli, really does give the team an immediate boost, maybe bumping attendance numbers back to where Nutting is slightly less of a miser...i.e., even at 15 mil/year, Grandal isn't really that expensive: most of the rest of the team either has a guaranteed salary or will be playing for the minimum or a modest amount. Literally, outside of signing a veteran SS or RP, there's no one making close to that amount, so the payroll would remain approximately the same.

I guess I've walked myself into this hypothetical and it's too late for me to comb back any of this verbosity, but at first glance, I like this never-gonna-happen-idea much more than I expected I would. The reality likely may be that the Dodgers step back in and give him an expensive one year deal as a stopgap, which is doubly bad for getting value from Cervelli, but maybe they sign Harper and don't want to do that. But I mean, halfway realistically for a moment, as risky as that deal would be, once Cervelli's salary is cleared, it changes basically nothing for at least this year and next. Smart small market baseball says get the value we can get for Cervelli now and shift to Diaz. The Pirates way says kinda the same thing, but more emphasis on clear the money and risk of Cervelli and turn to Diaz. A bolder gamble would be this kind of contract, banking at least on exceptionally good catcher production for the next two years, and figuring out the rest as you go. Let the infield carousel play itself out, and hopefully by the time we reach July or August, we have some hopeful-looking answers at some spots as well as Keller stepping into the rotation.

As bonkers as it initially seems, it might be the straightest path towards maximizing the kind of offense we can put out there. Outside of maybe a stopgap gamble on Dozier, there just isn't impact in the way we need it to be had other than a trade. Ok, this has turned into such a waste of all of our time that I just need to cease writing now, but I guess that's the plan: trade Cervelli for Taylor, shock everyone by signing Grandal, then profit.
 
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Winger for Hire

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I could see Grandel as a Russ Martin type player for the Pirates. The salary wouldn't be too far out of line with what they committed to Russ (again, if I'm remembering correctly).

Certainly not a cure-all, but would be the only guy you could point to and say, "Yeah, I can see him getting 30 dingers".
 

DJ Spinoza

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Yeah, that's a much more succinct way of getting towards what I had been thinking, without all the triangulating in terms of the other pieces falling into place. IIRC Russ was 3/30. I have to imagine the sticking point for a lot of teams would be the fourth year, but that's how you get a leg up over the other teams. There are all manner of reasons not to give 4 years/13-15 million each to a 30 year old catcher, but the Pirates window is right now. That gives you in all likelihood the best catching tandem in baseball for at least the next two seasons.

If you did manage to land Taylor in my crazy scenario, that dramatically changes the outlook of the offense, and the cost isn't really much of a big deal. Taylor would get a bit more expensive, but as long as you got at least some production out of 3B, SS, and 2B, then pretty much the entire team is under cost control through 2021. If Grandal's contract turns into a huge burden by the 4th year, it's not really the end of the world. And even if you just spent all your chips on Grandal and rolled with Gonzalez and Newman at SS, maybe you get lucky, and/or Tucker emerges earlier than expected.

It's way too outside the usual MO to even bother spinning out much more, but it could be the perfect kind of risk to take. You could say something similar about Marwin given the contract he'll likely get, but there are enough vaguely plausible internal options at the positions he plays that it seems somewhat less wise. Whereas in an ideal world you can get whatever value you can for Cervelli, and then dramatically improve the C tandem and hopefully get the 2018 production we had + more power for all of 2019, 20, and 21. Hope for the best in 19 with Keller, Moran/Newman/Kramer/Kang/Frazier, Polanco's health, and then "worst case" be really primed for a run in 20. Maybe I'm not looking at the downside soberly enough, but the more I think about this, the more it seems like the most reasonable play to tilt the sustainable mediocrity of this roster over into a 90 win team. You get 6-7 combined out of the C, Keller with something like 3, and that puts you in a lot better scenario as long as the infielders are at least mostly outpacing replacement level.
 

DJ Spinoza

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BTW we should also get Marcus Stroman but mainly because he's friends with Archer.

Edit: Indians picked up Plawecki, so that's probably one less destination for Grandal. This piece mentions the Astros, Rockies, Brewers, and White Sox as possibilities, along with LA on a one year reunion if he can't get what he's looking for. You have to assume at least one of those teams would give him closer to the value he's after, though just from my cursory glances at stuff about him this offseason, I'd wager a guess that the biggest roadblock is going to be a guaranteed fourth year.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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I'm still pretty committed to the stubborn opinion that bad luck was the biggest problem in the recent curve. There were some moves to be made for sure, but the combination of things that occurred towards the end of the best part of the run was difficult to swallow, and I think in some ways only really transitional to the current period, where the window is a bit more firmly established (I guess this is sort of a hot take).

There are too many counterfactuals involved to rehash the whole thing, and NH clearly faltered, but I still think the overall package has made good on his promises years ago, even if his flaws have become more glaring as time has gone on. The unfortunate thing in MLB is that a solidly close team won't really cut it after a while, especially when there's a playoff drought. I think you can say that Huntington has sort of successfully turned the franchise into a generic brand Cardinals (both in the usual sense of that metaphor and the financial one), in that we're too good to be entirely counted out. In better (read: most) years, the Cardinals exceed that, due in part to devil magic farm ability and more trade/free agent aggression, which says all you need to know, but at the end of the stay, I'll still take this route over most of the alternatives.

The key and core problem is obviously ownership, though not always in as direct a way as Pirates detractors want to claim. Whether or not he can figure out how to ramp up for another playoff run, Huntington's resume on balance is still a very good one IMO. What I don't quite see for this team going forward is where the Burnett / Martin type of move is. Chisenhall and Gonzalez are different kinds of gambits, and really the only thing that seems like it might be in the cards is the more classic small market move of getting some value for Cervelli. Too easy for me to try and project the Cervelli flip/Grandal signing onto NH now that I wasted so much digital ink on it, but that's really the only viable option that has some similarity to those older moves, and only because Grandal might be a relative bargain due to a couple bad playoff games (if his asking price was down to what Russell Martin got, he'd be signed already, and the fourth year has to be one of the biggest stumbling blocks).
 

DJ Spinoza

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Giants, Brewers talking Madison Bumgarner deal

Will be interesting to follow. MadBum looked like a shell of his former self last year (this is a good overview: Madison Bumgarner Won’t Fetch the Giants That Much | FanGraphs Baseball), and you have to imagine that going from AT&T to Miller would not be extremely kind to him, but the Brewers probably still have the depth to acquire him.

I sort of wonder if Zaidi will be allowed to buy prospects in order to kickstart the rebuilding process. A partially paid-for MadBum is a pretty reasonable gamble for a contending team to take, so I'd guess he could at least get a bit more of a return than we got for one year of Cutch. I'd be surprised if he could get a true top pitching prospect, but could maybe get a couple of solid prospects like Reynolds or better, and a flier. If you are a contending team acquiring him with a decently deep farm, then you can take the chance on him giving you at least a reasonable number of solid innings, and being a potential force if you make the playoffs. You could wait until the deadline, and that might be a good option for SF, but if you get really lucky with a trade, you hurt your depth and get an above average front-end starter and the possibility of a QO and a supplemental pick on top of that.

It's sort of trite to connect the Pirates with every possibility floating out there, but I'm not sure what else to do from the position of sustained mediocrity. An idea that strikes me as a nice big gamble would be to see if you can get Zaidi to buy prospects and package MadBum and Crawford while paying some of Crawford's contract down. Crawford has had some down years too, but he's an elite defender who might get some offensive boost (especially in the power department, where he's already solid) in PNC, and covers the window with a secure SS. Keller + Tucker + lower two guys would be a steep price, especially if you are confident that both could be contributors as early as this summer, but that would certainly qualify as the kind of aggressive move people are clamoring for.

I'd stay away from that kind of gamble I think, but just throwing it out there. It's possible that a MadBum trade triggers a firesale of sorts, and/or that he and Crawford could also be held to the deadline. Regardless I think the priority needs to be on finding somebody for SS. The conservative and boring route is Galvis, and as we inch towards the hot stove hopefully heating up again, my best guess is that the offseason drama for us will be a relatively boring trade for Ahmed vs pay for Galvis rumor cycle, on top of a what can Cervelli fetch cycle.
 

Shwag33

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I'm still pretty committed to the stubborn opinion that bad luck was the biggest problem in the recent curve. There were some moves to be made for sure, but the combination of things that occurred towards the end of the best part of the run was difficult to swallow, and I think in some ways only really transitional to the current period, where the window is a bit more firmly established (I guess this is sort of a hot take).

There are too many counterfactuals involved to rehash the whole thing, and NH clearly faltered, but I still think the overall package has made good on his promises years ago, even if his flaws have become more glaring as time has gone on. The unfortunate thing in MLB is that a solidly close team won't really cut it after a while, especially when there's a playoff drought. I think you can say that Huntington has sort of successfully turned the franchise into a generic brand Cardinals (both in the usual sense of that metaphor and the financial one), in that we're too good to be entirely counted out. In better (read: most) years, the Cardinals exceed that, due in part to devil magic farm ability and more trade/free agent aggression, which says all you need to know, but at the end of the stay, I'll still take this route over most of the alternatives.

The key and core problem is obviously ownership, though not always in as direct a way as Pirates detractors want to claim. Whether or not he can figure out how to ramp up for another playoff run, Huntington's resume on balance is still a very good one IMO. What I don't quite see for this team going forward is where the Burnett / Martin type of move is. Chisenhall and Gonzalez are different kinds of gambits, and really the only thing that seems like it might be in the cards is the more classic small market move of getting some value for Cervelli. Too easy for me to try and project the Cervelli flip/Grandal signing onto NH now that I wasted so much digital ink on it, but that's really the only viable option that has some similarity to those older moves, and only because Grandal might be a relative bargain due to a couple bad playoff games (if his asking price was down to what Russell Martin got, he'd be signed already, and the fourth year has to be one of the biggest stumbling blocks).


The pirates were living on luck with reclamation projects for their big upswing. They didn't really even have bad luck the past couple years, it's just reverting back to the norm. You can't expect a lot of the guys the pirates sign to actually work out and be above average WAR players.
 

Dread Pirate Roberts

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The pirates were living on luck on reclamation projects for their big upswing.
Bingo. NH is good at evaluating MLB talent (relative to both the rest of the league and to his ability to evaluate amateur and minor-league talent, which come in at somewhere between "slightly below average" and "f***ing shameful"), but he's not that much better than everyone else.
 

DJ Spinoza

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I wasn't very clear in that post, but I meant that bad luck was the biggest issue in terms of the post-2015 situation, particularly in terms of Cole and Cutch.

If anything, I think Huntington has gotten better at assembling a fringe contender in the intervening time, since now he has several good pieces either locked in or under significantly long control. It's not enough, and a chief culprit is money. Some of NH's strengths are also where his weaknesses peak in. He's risk-adverse but not quite in the best of ways. I don't really think Nutting would even give him the green light anyways, but I also don't think he'd give somebody like Grandal or Gonzalez a modest 4 year, 60 million dollar deal. And in an abstract world, that's totally fine. But we're not in an abstract world, we're in a world where the Pirates have a solid young team that needs a power boost on top of just a bit of luck to make a playoff run or two.
 
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