OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: More of the same

[Winger for Hire]

Swapping out Glasnow for Craig or Hayes wouldn't move the needle the much for either team, but either way, that package gets deGrom, no question.

Why would Hayes/Craig mot move the needle for the Mets? They are in need of corner infield prospects . They have Alonso soon, but Vientos is, even being aggressive, 3 years away. Both Hayes and Craig have shots at being MLB ready mid year next season, and the Mets have said they're not looking to rebuild, just retool slightly. Craig/Hayes gives them their David Wright replacement, which has been a piece they've been trying to find for a couple years now.

 

[DanielPlainview]

They'd be swapping out a potentially elite pitching prospect for a corner infielder. The Mets, or any team really, would take having a prospect need at 1B if it meant acquiring that kind of pitching.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I don't even think it's really close: Moncada >>> Meadows, and Kopech >> Glasnow. deGrom was unavailable. Maybe Keller + Meadows would have had the Mets starting to listen, but the Yankees (or Braves) could easily have topped it if they wanted to, and the thought experiment isn't even worth playing out because the Mets weren't even listening to offers.

Sale is better than Archer, so the package is probably about on par. Baz is better than the third or fourth pieces the Red Sox got, but 1) that's the price of doing business at the deadline, and 2) all three of these guys are a bit difficult to actually pin down value on.

Part of me is somewhat incredulous that Huntington finally uses some assets to get an impact MLB talent and he catches flak, but I suppose it's par for the course. I've enjoyed Glasnow's ascent back to godlike status after 12 good innings.

 

[Winger for Hire]

They'd be swapping out a potentially elite pitching prospect for a corner infielder. The Mets, or any team really, would take having a prospect need at 1B if it meant acquiring that kind of pitching.

I think you're overrating what kind of value Glasnow held on July 31, and you're underselling both Hayes and Craig by calling them 1B prospects instead of either corner infield (Craig) or third base (Hayes).

 

[DanielPlainview]

I think you're overrating what kind of value Glasnow held on July 31, and you're underselling both Hayes and Craig by calling them 1B prospects instead of either corner infield (Craig) or third base (Hayes).

I think Pittsburgh is the only place that was down on Glasnow. Just about everywhere else was aware of his potential. And there is no difference between 1B or 3B when you're talking about top end pitching prospects.

I've always been on the "protect the prospects" train, which is why this trade is so aggravating for me. It absolutely would not have happened without all the whining by the yinzer fanbase. What's worse is now that they got what they asked for, it looks to be a bust, and all they can manage to say is basically "yolo" if they're not completely putting their head in the sand. This was, is, and will be a very bad trade for the Pirates, and those fans need shut up about trading prospects for the rest of time.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Hey I'm glad the Pirates finally went after something. Sucks that it was a Archer for all of that, and not someone of higher quality but you can't say that this wasn't a bold move. Archer was pitching quite well since May and was pitching in the AL East on a poor team. He's still an impact arm IMO.

I'm not one of the fans that is point fingers at Glasnow after a few good outings and saying he's fixed and will now be an elite pitcher. I have been on record, on this board saying he's the most gifted P I've ever seen live in the minors. His raw stuff was better than Cole, Taillon, Keller, etc. But we need to see a lot more than 12 innings to make a call.

I do think Searage stole some thunder from Benedict who had a bigger role in our pitching success from a few years back, than most realize. A good FO would have to really take a look at things if Glasnow did quickly become a top end starter after failing so badly in Pitt. That after we watched Cole go to Houston and become a Cy Young caliber arm. Plus, Charlie Morton.

 

[Winger for Hire]

LOL, looks to be a bust. Despite the actual good path it looks to have set the team on, not even mentioning it's been less than a month.

This is amazing stuff.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I am in utter shock. Are you seriously saying that this trade was a bust after two starts from Archer and 12 good innings from Glasnow?

I've been firmly onboard the train of "be more cavalier with totally unproven prospects," because I think the Pirates cannot develop a good enough team entirely on their own, and they obviously won't sign a big impact player, so there is basically one other option: trade, with all the attendant risks that are involved. In my eyes, this trade absolutely lives or dies depending on how Archer performs for the next 3+ seasons. Even if Meadows can never stay healthy, Glasnow reverts to total wildness and is up and down, and Baz doesn't pan out as a front line starter, it won't matter if Archer's game doesn't get to where it's capable of, with some NL and pitcher park bonus.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

But if NH made those moves why didnt he also get a rental IF for cheap to compete this year? Escobar, Dozier, and Cabrera were all had for cheap and would have helped this team big time.

We replaced Glasnow for Archer. Hearn for Kela. I dont buy that Glasnow would have never reached his potential here...he was getting better and only 24. Who knows if he couldnt have reached that in 2019-21. And Hearn could be ready next year, is a lefty...and could be just as good as Kela.

So we replaced them and added Meadows and Baz...two great trade chips to add someone else.

Right now I dont like it at all since this wasnt a move for this year. Or else they would have improved the IF. And next year we might realize we could have just kept the guys we had. Using Meadows and Baz to add another big name.

We didnt get great value for Cole..and way overpayed for Archer. This FO cant do anything right. They could have easily held onto Cole and waited til the deadline and got alot more.


This better lead to Nutting opening his wallet and us spending more to go all in these next 3 years

 

[DanielPlainview]

I'm not basing it only on what's happened after the trade. Archer hasn't shown anything in 3 seasons. This reputation he's living off in Pittsburgh comes from 3 good seasons from 2013-2015. That's it - for 3 of 7 seasons he's been 3.22-3.33 pitcher, the rest: 4.00+. So, seeing people act like he's an ace or even a top tier #2 has been baffling to me. And I don't want to hear about his innings totals or his strikeouts because those clearly aren't helping his bottomline.

Glasnow has hundreds of innings of dominant pitching on resume. His MLB performance has been spotty, but everyone and their grandma knew if he just learned to hit the strikezone he'd be near unhittable. Well, so far he's done that in Tampa. 12 innings, yes, but 6 hits, 3 ER, 20 ks, 3 BBs. And it's not even really the stats. All you have to do is watch him pitch to see what this isn't just a fluke run. If all it took to fix him was a few hours with a 6'8" pitching coach, then the entire Pirates FO and staff needs to be gutted simply for not considering bringing in someone like that to work with him.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I think you're placing way too much value on coulds and ignore the actual value of the certainty they got for a new window that wasn't there a month ago.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I'll get this out of the way now... just like Cole, there's a very big chance that the Glasnow we're seeing in Tampa was never going to emerge in Pittsburgh.

While I agree, this makes my blood boil. "we can't coach our young talent to stardom so we what the hell, let's trade for developed on the downside".


There is NO hope with the current Ownership/GM/Manager.......... I wonder what Bell, Tallion or Polanco would be in other uniforms. I bet a lot of GM's around the league are starting to wonder as well.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Hey I'm glad the Pirates finally went after something. Sucks that it was a Archer for all of that, and not someone of higher quality but you can't say that this wasn't a bold move. Archer was pitching quite well since May and was pitching in the AL East on a poor team. He's still an impact arm IMO.

I'm not one of the fans that is point fingers at Glasnow after a few good outings and saying he's fixed and will now be an elite pitcher. I have been on record, on this board saying he's the most gifted P I've ever seen live in the minors. His raw stuff was better than Cole, Taillon, Keller, etc. But we need to see a lot more than 12 innings to make a call.

I do think Searage stole some thunder from Benedict who had a bigger role in our pitching success from a few years back, than most realize. A good FO would have to really take a look at things if Glasnow did quickly become a top end starter after failing so badly in Pitt. That after we watched Cole go to Houston and become a Cy Young caliber arm. Plus, Charlie Morton.

Yup... ole Ray hasn't been nearly as magical since the departure of Benedict, I would say below average.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I am in utter shock. Are you seriously saying that this trade was a bust after two starts from Archer and 12 good innings from Glasnow?

I've been firmly onboard the train of "be more cavalier with totally unproven prospects," because I think the Pirates cannot develop a good enough team entirely on their own, and they obviously won't sign a big impact player, so there is basically one other option: trade, with all the attendant risks that are involved. In my eyes, this trade absolutely lives or dies depending on how Archer performs for the next 3+ seasons. Even if Meadows can never stay healthy, Glasnow reverts to total wildness and is up and down, and Baz doesn't pan out as a front line starter, it won't matter if Archer's game doesn't get to where it's capable of, with some NL and pitcher park bonus.

I didn't know much about Archer, sorry I don't watch the Rays, but color me unimpressed so far. But the prospects they gave up were all top TIER prospects and they gave up 3 for an average pitcher.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I hate that I've turned into this, but not using Frazier when you have a DH spot is dumb even by Hurdle's standards. At his best Moran is basically the same type of hitter except he doesn't even have the speed to actualize doubles.

I guess it's good news that Cervelli is back at C.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Neil: Clint, we got some bad PR from moving Baz. Can you do something on the field to take some heat off?

Clint: Hold my Double Bubble.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Judging from this #restgate controversy or whatever you want to call it, I think it's safe to say that Paul Zeise is close to usurping Ron Cook and Bob Smizik for the throne of idiot, borderline illiterate yinzer "journalist."

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Wouldn't hate to grab Granderson for a LH power bat on the bench, and experience down the stretch. Whether it actually makes sense or not probably depends on whether he could give Marte a couple of breathers and play CF. He hasn't really done that this year, but has still played there some in recent years.

I hope we see some of Boshers in these two games. He's basically being thrown right into the fire anyways with the upcoming matchups, but it'd be nice to have some sense of what we have there, and whether or not we should seek out a veteran before the end of the month.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Our outfield have to start hitting again if we are going to make a run. Guessing we would be no more than 2 games back if not for those injuries.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Yeah, we need Polanco to get going again especially, but the lineup definitely depends on all three of them. The Cubs got stomped by the Brewers today, so it would be a pretty opportune time to get hot and win a bunch of games. Can't skip over these two games, though. The Twins are more mediocre than the Giants.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

We're in the bottom of the second inning and Joe West has made three brutal calls already.

Great to see Cervelli with a double. Taillon looks pretty sharp still, but would have been nice to get Odorizzi's pitch count up a little bit more, and probably scratch across one more run.

 

[lordstanley91]

I’m at work so I’m check the MLB game day app and Taillon is getting no love on the corners from West.

 

[lordstanley91]

I’m at work so I’m check the MLB game day app and Taillon is getting no love on the corners from West.

However Odorizzi just did.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

This has definitely turned to shit. Need Taillon to slam the door here, can't get singled to death and give up more runs.

 

[cookthebooks]

joe west has ruined this game