OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

[ChaosAgent]

The Pirates are starting to add some power with these call-ups. Madris is an unranked prospect in their pool according to Fangraphs, but he's slugging .526 in Indy this year. I think he won't be up for long though, I think he likely goes down as soon as Gamel is ready and that seems like it will be soon.

My bet is that Madris goes down when Gamel comes off of the IL, Chang is DFA'd when Newman comes off of the IL and Park goes down when Marcano comes off of the IL, which leaves them with these 13 hitters:

C: Heineman, Perez
1B: Chavis
2B: Castillo, Marcano
SS: Newman, Cruz
3B: Hayes
LF: Gamel, Mitchell
CF: Reynolds
RF: Suwinski
DH: Vogelbach

This also makes me wonder what will happen with VanMeter, do they demote Marcano with VanMeter back?

I think Mitchell is in danger of demotion. Just my opinion.

Also, are we just not gonna see this Greg Allen guy all year? He looked good in ST.

It makes sense to leave Castillo up. We need guys who can hit lefties. Anywhere in this lineup.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Suwinski had himself a day. No matter what he does the rest of his career, he'll have today to look back on and go, "yeah, there aren't many people who have hit 3 homers, with the 3rd being a walk off, in a game before."

Glad to finally see an end to the Cruz drama. Now, if he doesn't come out of the gates on fire, people will bitch and moan. They build these guys (Polanco was a prime example) up so much, and then knowing beforehand that we're not going to see the prospects until later in the spring/early summer, hammer the unwillingness to promote said player due to service time, and rile people into a frenzy so that they think Barry Bonds is about to make his entrance. And Cruz has superstar potential. I think most people see that. I just hope he gets some rope to play with if he isn't a superstar from day 1.

I also want to apologize to Mitch Keller. The past month he's been a very serviceable MLB starter. He still throws too many balls and command spotty, but he's getting people out in a variety of situations. If he can harness this version, I'll glad eat more crow and be happy that we seemingly figured out a prospect at the MLB level, at least as far as SP go.

 

[ImporterExporter]

 

[DanielPlainview]

If Marcano isn’t penned in as the lead off hitter when healthy I’m going to personally deliver a shit sandwich to Shelton.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If Marcano isn’t penned in as the lead off hitter when healthy I’m going to personally deliver a shit sandwich to Shelton.

I think it's more likely that Marcano ends up the super utility backup at multiple positions than him starting at this point.

If Newman gets shipped out, I think that opens up a lot of playing time for Marcano. However, I think they keep Newman as insurance on Cruz until Cruz can show he can handle the SS position. I think it's a reasonable projection to have Marcano, Cruz and Castillo as the 3 main middle infielders on the team next year, maybe even after the deadline if Newman gets traded.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Marcano should be in LF or 2B nearly every day until it’s proven he’s not going to consistently hit/get on base.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Marcano should be in LF or 2B nearly every day until it’s proven he’s not going to consistently hit/get on base.

He's legitimately a plus defender too. I've been pretty underwhelmed with the defense of our versatility humans lately...the Giants had some sort of wizard at 2B that made me very jealous. Well Marcano has that.

 

[Gallatin]

Come on. You were talking about him as an Ace or TOR guy.

You then saying you're "ride or die" that he's a #3 isn't some kind of hot take. Many of us could see Priester making it. The question is whether he's going to be a great pitcher or as effective as a back-of-rotation guy.



Didn't you say earlier in this thread that he's a swing adjustment away from an .850 OPS. Did I hallucinate this or was it a shadow edit?

Well you got me there, top of the rotation is my expectation. However in spite of my firm belief in his abilities, based on him missing so much development time so far in his career, I downgraded that one spot to a 3.

I still think there's a great shot he'll be more, but I'm sure he's a 3, so there, I'm a liar. You win.

On the other hand, you all gave up on Keller. A couple of times now. And I'm right he's going to be a good Pitcher. That's 4 straight quality starts now, and he's doing it the way I defined he would. He's learning how to be a real pitcher, he's learning how to play the game.

Mitch has got the ability to spin the ball in a variety of ways. Eventually that's going to make his fastball play, if it isn't already from having two of them now, seemingly out of nowhere. That will be a thing for him into his 30's IMO. He's a guy that might end up throwing seven different pitches, and stick with whatever 3 or 4 are working any particular day.

Yinz guys need to look under the surface a little bit more sometimes. Instead of emotionally reacting to being disappointed like your a bunch of children, ready to throw the new toy out because it needs a little work still.

 

[Gallatin]

Agree with this. Disappointing to see Gonzales with an OPS of .743 at age 23 in AA also. NO I'M NOT SAYING TO CUT HIM, before anyone suggests that. Guys who are going to be impact major leaguers are generally already cracking into the majors by age 23, not scuffling at AA. The guys who are really stepping forward this year aren't the more highly regarded prospects in the system, which I guess is both good and bad.

And what does that tell you? It tells me that development is nonlinear. Gonzalez has fairly easily fixable issues IMO.

Stop hunting fastballs, stop hunting homers. He does that, and all of a sudden he stops swinging through all those breaking balls he's having trouble adjusting to.

He's got goals this one. And a huge amount of belief in himself. Like with Cruz, sometimes it can be hard to talk a guy into doing the smart thing for his career. Sometimes it's a process. And sometimes they never listen.

 

[Gallatin]

I don't think the Cherington slurpers, including our announcers, have wrapped their heads around how disappointing the minors have been this year.

Cruz was terrible, then better. But if he can't hit in April that is bad for us going forward. God forbid October gets cold too.
Gonzales not good.
The guys who have cracked the majors are playing replacement-level baseball. No one has broken out past that - Marcano has the best chance.
Who has stepped up pitching-wise? Burrows and....?
Look at Bradenton and Greensboro. Pretty barren. There isn't a multi-year influx of talent. 80% of the system is in Pittsburgh, Altoona or Indy.

The whining is intense here lately...

No.

But tired of the guy getting slurped for basically being an above-average tanker. It's the easiest thing in sports to tank.

And with the outcomes this year, his tanking skills are getting downgraded.

But didn't you say it's impossible to build a team just from your own Minor Leaguer's? Cuz you know that's what he's going to try to do right? So if it's impossible, and he sucks on top of that, why are you even here?

 

[Gallatin]

It can't be much longer before the Pirates trade Keller to the Rays and he probably shows improvement for a real franchise.

Yinz are just ridiculous...

How can it not be obvious at this point that Keller has a special, special talent? He's a late bloomer, miscast as a power pitcher. Not a surprise given the development atmosphere he spent his first couple years in here.

 

[Empoleon8771]

 

[MrBrightside]

Not sure if it will impact Cruz but the amount of hype over calling him up now isn't doing him any favors for the expectations that are being created...and it also shows the absurdity of any of the other pretexts for keeping him in the minors until now.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Not sure if it will impact Cruz but the amount of hype over calling him up now isn't doing him any favors for the expectations that are being created...and it also shows the absurdity of any of the other pretexts for keeping him in the minors until now.

Seriously. If I was a lawyer arguing service time manipulation, that social media video would be Exhibit A.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

There's few things as pathetic as everyone knowing the precise reason a team acts the way they do, the team making obvious lies to pretend that's not the reason, and the team doing the precise thing everyone knew that they were doing.

But hey, short of the Pirates outright saying they're doing it to manipulate service time there's never, ever going to be any consequences for shit like this.

 

[ImporterExporter]

It baffles me that people don't understand why a team like Pittsburgh won't promote a guy before June, at least as far as the top prospects go.

Say Cruz was up from day 1 this year. Regardless of how he did, we'd be losing him earlier than is now possible by him having been kept in AAA. And of course, that timeline moves even more if he wins/places 2nd in ROTY voting.

Let's assume he is a superstar. If he's that, from opening day, you basically just punted 2 years of control for 2 months of play, on a team that isn't close to contending yet. That's the logic in my head and I am not sure I grasp just how many fans don't understand why the Pirates do what they do.

It's out of necessity, financially, and from a common sense perspective. It sucks. I hate that we're watching a team that is owned by someone who has no real interest in spending money. If Nutting won't open the wallet to at least 100M give or take, there is no real way to argue in favor of having a guy like Cruz on the roster from opening day onward. You simply lose too much value for a few months of maybe great play. And even if you get the great play, what is it worth over 2.5 months? 2 wins? 4?

I don't like what they have done and continue to do, but I do understand the position a GM is in when he knows that service time is worth much more to a team like Pittsburgh, not only as it pertains to having a key player around, longer rather than shorter, but also in terms of leverage when it comes to trades and a player being under control for a longer period of time, which increase the value of your player vs the market.

Everyone knows Cruz was kept down to ensure service time remains in the Pirates favor. Everyone knows it sucks. But most people still go ape shit when a Cruz situation unfolds, despite the history of it happening for the reason I just stated above.

Until our market (Pittsburgh) grows significantly or Nutting sells, we will never see a shift from the current MO as far as service time goes.

 

[ChaosAgent]

It baffles me that people don't understand why a team like Pittsburgh won't promote a guy before June, at least as far as the top prospects go.

Say Cruz was up from day 1 this year. Regardless of how he did, we'd be losing him earlier than is now possible by him having been kept in AAA. And of course, that timeline moves even more if he wins/places 2nd in ROTY voting.

Let's assume he is a superstar. If he's that, from opening day, you basically just punted 2 years of control for 2 months of play, on a team that isn't close to contending yet. That's the logic in my head and I am not sure I grasp just how many fans don't understand why the Pirates do what they do.

It's out of necessity, financially, and from a common sense perspective. It sucks. I hate that we're watching a team that is owned by someone who has no real interest in spending money. If Nutting won't open the wallet to at least 100M give or take, there is no real way to argue in favor of having a guy like Cruz on the roster from opening day onward. You simply lose too much value for a few months of maybe great play. And even if you get the great play, what is it worth over 2.5 months? 2 wins? 4?

I don't like what they have done and continue to do, but I do understand the position a GM is in when he knows that service time is worth much more to a team like Pittsburgh, not only as it pertains to having a key player around, longer rather than shorter, but also in terms of leverage when it comes to trades and a player being under control for a longer period of time, which increase the value of your player vs the market.

Everyone knows Cruz was kept down to ensure service time remains in the Pirates favor. Everyone knows it sucks. But most people still go ape shit when a Cruz situation unfolds, despite the history of it happening for the reason I just stated above.

Until our market (Pittsburgh) grows significantly or Nutting sells, we will never see a shift from the current MO as far as service time goes.

I understand and completely agree that it was a necessity. And I doubt he would have helped much early this year.

But it is technically still illegal per the terms of the CBA. And the team putting out this hype video is basically brazenly flaunting that they did it.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I understand and completely agree that it was a necessity. And I doubt he would have helped much early this year.

But it is technically still illegal per the terms of the CBA. And the team putting out this hype video is basically brazenly flaunting that they did it.

And really, MLB has set up the entire system to benefit the haves (NY, LA, Boston, Philly, etc) vs the havenots (us, Baltimore, Tampa, etc). There is a reason why Nutting gets a hefty sum to suck via revenue sharing. There is a reason why service time is written the way it is. It forces teams that don't spend, to keep their big guns down longer, or risk losing them sooner to a team like NY who don't have to worry about service time. If they want to bring up a player early and that player pop, they have the financial resources to retain that player, whether they become FA in 4, 5, or 6 years. Even if you are dealing with Scott Boras, a team like NY or LA can move players along a different timeline as they're in position to spend whatever it takes if a player is great.

The Pirates are not. And a large part of that has been specifically set up by the large market teams, which, by and large, drive revenue for the league itself.

So I just don't get bent out of shape when it comes to this specific situation. I chalk it up to the bullies successfully creating a league in which there is no cap, and no real incentive for a team owned by someone like Nutting, to dare challenge the league or the hierarchy of clubs. The league has created an arena, where even if your team sucks (think 100 losses bad) you can still rake in millions.

There is a part of me that truly believes a team like the Pirate exist as a quasi-farm team for the league's breadwinners, like LA/NY.

 

[DanielPlainview]

They'd obviously argue that they made a "hype video" for everyone who made the 40-man. There's always loopholes and workarounds. Changing things would require an entirely new structure to MLB and MiLB.

 

[ChaosAgent]

They'd obviously argue that they made a "hype video" for everyone who made the 40-man. There's always loopholes and workarounds. Changing things would require an entirely new structure to MLB and MiLB.

I maintain that the Union has ample opportunity to structure service time to be an age-or-tenure situation like the NHL is. E.g., everyone hits free agency at 29 no matter what.

But the union continues to prioritize the paychecks of union leadership and the ability of a few players to get $200m+ contracts over the well-being of 98%+ of players. Not to mention the minor leaguers. It is what it is.

 

[MrBrightside]

And really, MLB has set up the entire system to benefit the haves (NY, LA, Boston, Philly, etc) vs the havenots (us, Baltimore, Tampa, etc). There is a reason why Nutting gets a hefty sum to suck via revenue sharing. There is a reason why service time is written the way it is. It forces teams that don't spend, to keep their big guns down longer, or risk losing them sooner to a team like NY who don't have to worry about service time. If they want to bring up a player early and that player pop, they have the financial resources to retain that player, whether they become FA in 4, 5, or 6 years. Even if you are dealing with Scott Boras, a team like NY or LA can move players along a different timeline as they're in position to spend whatever it takes if a player is great.

The Pirates are not. And a large part of that has been specifically set up by the large market teams, which, by and large, drive revenue for the league itself.

So I just don't get bent out of shape when it comes to this specific situation. I chalk it up to the bullies successfully creating a league in which there is no cap, and no real incentive for a team owned by someone like Nutting, to dare challenge the league or the hierarchy of clubs. The league has created an arena, where even if your team sucks (think 100 losses bad) you can still rake in millions.

There is a part of me that truly believes a team like the Pirate exist as a quasi-farm team for the league's breadwinners, like LA/NY.

I don't have an issue with them playing by the rules as they exist today. I do have an issue when the organization spews bullshit like he's being kept in the minors to check off boxes like learning to pinch hit and then having the local lapdogs regurgitate it like it's anything other than a pretext that a 4th grader can see through.

 

[MrBrightside]

Not sure I really understand the Madris recall unless there's an injury of which we aren't aware. The guy is a complete non-prospect and I'd much rather see Mitchell and Suwinski and Swaggerty (or Cruz) get the AB's at the corners until Gamel comes back...not that Ben Gamel should be blocking a prospect either.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I have zero sympathy for players who get mad about service time manipulation when they had the opportunity to do something about it during the last CBA negotiations and didn't do anything about it.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I don't have an issue with them playing by the rules as they exist today. I do have an issue when the organization spews bullshit like he's being kept in the minors to check off boxes like learning to pinch hit and then having the local lapdogs regurgitate it like it's anything other than a pretext that a 4th grader can see through.

I agree 100% with this, though a lot of the media in Pitt has been on the get Cruz up here asap wagon for a while now.

Business always BS their way through situations like this. I've seen it ad nauseam it my own life. I roll my eyes at the excuses given by teams in situations such as these but understand that it's not an isolated incident.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Not sure I really understand the Madris recall unless there's an injury of which we aren't aware. The guy is a complete non-prospect and I'd much rather see Mitchell and Suwinski and Swaggerty (or Cruz) get the AB's at the corners until Gamel comes back...not that Ben Gamel should be blocking a prospect either.

I thought Madris looked like a potential late-bloomer in spring training. He showed an uptick in production last year and then an even greater uptick this year. Even in recent memory the Pirates have done well with no-hype hitting prospects in JHay and Garrett Jones. Hell Alex Presley had a nice MLB run.

I don't really think Mitchell or Swaggerty are that good of prospects. If you put Madris, Mitchell and Swaggerty on a field and had amnesia about which round each player was drafted in, I doubt you'd be able to guess it.