OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Congrats to the Houston Cheaters on their win

[Gallatin]

Not sure if it will impact Cruz but the amount of hype over calling him up now isn't doing him any favors for the expectations that are being created...and it also shows the absurdity of any of the other pretexts for keeping him in the minors until now.

The ceiling can't even be quantified with this guy, but the reality is he's not going to be what Pittsburgh expects IMO. There are significant holes in his game, he's still pretty raw.

Hopefully he can OPS over .750, and hit some massive home runs while not losing game after game defensively at Shortstop.

This is what I'm hoping for in 2022.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I have zero sympathy for players who get mad about service time manipulation when they had the opportunity to do something about it during the last CBA negotiations and didn't do anything about it.

I do have sympathy for the young players who didn't have a seat at the table because MLBPA leadership is selfish and only looks out for the interests of tenured players. Jacob Stallings won't be able to hit free agency until he's 35. LOL.

 

[Gallatin]

There's few things as pathetic as everyone knowing the precise reason a team acts the way they do, the team making obvious lies to pretend that's not the reason, and the team doing the precise thing everyone knew that they were doing.

But hey, short of the Pirates outright saying they're doing it to manipulate service time there's never, ever going to be any consequences for shit like this.

I'm a Bucs fan, a Pittsburgh guy, and I'll likely not follow Cruz after he leaves. I don't follow any former Pirates, and only follow current ones & those coming up in the system.

Hell I was becoming an adult when Barry Bonds was patrolling LF for the Bucs. And I didn't follow him in San Fran, even though I grew up there.

Why do we worry? Why aren't we excited to have an extra year of Cruz? Why aren't we happy our team is playing it smart, playing moneyball. I just don't understand you guys.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The biggest issue I have with Cruz's promotion is that they could have legitimately made the case that Cruz's play kept him in AAA until June. He deserved to be in AAA up until this month because he was awful to start the year. But to call him up on the same weekend that fans before the year projected he'd be up (I remember multiple people here called the Giants series for when he'd be called up) shits on any sort of legitimate justification they could have for keeping him down.

They should have called him up in the beginning of June if they actually wanted to show it was performance based, not super-two based. The fact that they're calling him up now just makes any of their "he needs work" claims look bogus.

 

[Gallatin]

The biggest issue I have with Cruz's promotion is that they could have legitimately made the case that Cruz's play kept him in AAA until June. He deserved to be in AAA up until this month because he was awful to start the year. But to call him up on the same weekend that fans before the year projected he'd be up (I remember multiple people here called the Giants series for when he'd be called up) shits on any sort of legitimate justification they could have for keeping him down.

They should have called him up in the beginning of June if they actually wanted to show it was performance based, not super-two based. The fact that they're calling him up now just makes any of their "he needs work" claims look bogus.

Fans & media literally demanded it. But why try to hide it? You can't admit it out in public without getting sued, but you can play the game and bring him up the moment it makes sense. As long as you don't give the real reason, which it seems like everybody wants...

 

[DanielPlainview]

Just curious if the fans and media will eat their words after they get to experience bad defense from he's-definitely-ready-bring-him-up-now Cruz

 

[ImporterExporter]

Thompson hurt. Chang continues to live. Still want Bae up here sooner than later. He's an upgrade over anyone on the bench at the moment.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Thompson getting hurt is not something I really wanted to see. He has also been pitching well recently just like Keller has.

I knew Peguero was going down but I was hoping to see one of their bullpen arms go down as well.

 

[dogthateats]

 

[ImporterExporter]

This kid is a stud athlete. 1st round baseball talent. Full ride football scholarship to Clemson. Would be pretty amazing to find someone capable of pulling off the double duty at the ML level.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Cruz at 6. Was hoping he'd be at 1 or 2 but at least he's starting.

 

[MrBrightside]

I thought Madris looked like a potential late-bloomer in spring training. He showed an uptick in production last year and then an even greater uptick this year. Even in recent memory the Pirates have done well with no-hype hitting prospects in JHay and Garrett Jones. Hell Alex Presley had a nice MLB run.

I don't really think Mitchell or Swaggerty are that good of prospects. If you put Madris, Mitchell and Swaggerty on a field and had amnesia about which round each player was drafted in, I doubt you'd be able to guess it.

Meh. Madris is 26 and repeating AAA and really has no sustained track record of MiLB success. Anything is possible but he'd be a unicorn if he turns into anything. And if you really think Madris is the equal of Swaggerty as a prospect, that's a pretty damning commentary on Swaggerty.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Never thought this anyway, but the kid doesn't lack confidence. Now go back it up.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Meh. Madris is 26 and repeating AAA and really has no sustained track record of MiLB success. Anything is possible but he'd be a unicorn if he turns into anything. And if you really think Madris is the equal of Swaggerty as a prospect, that's a pretty damning commentary on Swaggerty.

My thoughts exactly. With that being said, I am pulling for Madris. It's guys like that who really make for a great story when they do become something worthwhile. Expect nothing, and you may get surprised. That's my mindset.

Swaggerty is and has always been a reach of a prospect. Overdrafted badly. Has never shown any real sustained dominance in the minors, despite his draft position. I hope he makes me look like an ass but I've never seen it.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I think the little ad campaign around the Cruz promotion was shameless, and it is especially true with the way the Indianapolis social media accounts have been tongue-in-cheek for a few weeks now. It is what it is -- I'm glad that Baker's comments from a bit ago weren't actually about the future, and that we are rolling out with Cruz immediately upon super two safely clearing.

For the sake of clarity, super two simply secures that Cruz will still be pre-arb eligible in 2025 rather than start getting arbitration hearings. The Pirates control his rights for 7 seasons, through 2029, and the only way that would have changed is if he didn't accrue 20 days of service this year (it's 15 normally, but since he had a few last year, that would be the safe cut-off for the actual extra year of service), on the one hand, or if he won/finished second in ROY voting on the other.

Given how thin the race really has been this year, I don't think it's out of the question that Cruz could still enter the ROY mix. Steamer has been and still is pretty bullish on him, and it's a pretty accurate projection system.

Cruz has pretty consistently managed to have a patient approach at the plate and avoid spiraling into stretches where his swing gets long and he chases. He'd had that issue a few times early on last year, and I saw it again for a week or so earlier this year, but mostly he's managed to eliminate it. I think the idea that sometimes seems to be floating out there that he has bad plate discipline is just subjective because of how big he is. The walk rate in particular this year is something to be very excited about, and hopefully he will hit the ground running.

I think it makes sense to have him higher in the order because his speed makes him a real threat. I do think a healthy Marcano has earned some run as a leadoff batter, but I would also like to see us have Cruz hitting in front of Hayes at some point soon.

 

[ImporterExporter]

 

[Empoleon8771]

I wonder what that means for Newman and Castillo then.

 

[MrBrightside]

I wonder what that means for Newman and Castillo then.

Not to be flip, but who cares?

 

[ChaosAgent]

I wonder what that means for Newman and Castillo then.

Surely Castillo will continue to face lefties.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I wonder what that means for Newman and Castillo then.

I'm not excited for the near returns of the Newman/Yoshi/VanMeeter trio. It doesn't sound like any of them are in danger of not being right back up with the big club so that means 3 people are losing at least some amount of time. Then you have guys like Gamel and Marisnick. I really hope we don't bring them back into the fold if it means guys below are losing time.

Newman should become a defensive replacement for Cruz and can obviously play 2B. I don't see a reason for anyone else on the IL to be back with the ML team moving forward.

Ideally I'd like to see the position players be:

C - nobody worth mentioning unfortunately for the rest of this year
1B - Chavis
2B - Marcano
3B - Hayes
SS - Cruz
LF - Bae (obviously would need to be called up)
CF - Reynolds
RF - Suwinski
DH - Vogelbach

Bench:

Mitchell and Madris as OF
Newman/Castillo for the IF
Obviously a C

 

[MrBrightside]

Surely Castillo will continue to face lefties.

Platoon Castillo and Marcano at 2B and play Cruz at SS. No one should care at all what happens to Kevin Newman (or Chang or VanMeter or Park).

 

[ChaosAgent]

Platoon Castillo and Marcano at 2B and play Cruz at SS. No one should care at all what happens to Kevin Newman (or Chang or VanMeter or Park).

I could see that, though I'm more bullish on Marcano hitting lefties than I am Cruz.

Cruz could mash righties tho.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

My sense is that Newman being on the horizon might be a good time to Castillo to take a trip to AAA to try and work on his approach some before coming back after the TDL. I don't really think he's deserved a demotion, and his future role might be more of a bench/utility guy anyways, but it's just a hunch. I think Newman will play, like it or not, and Marcano's play has maybe made the opportunities for Castillo thinner.

JVM probably bought himself some more time with his power surge, but it makes sense that he'd be swapped for Chang. I don't think Yoshi has really earned much of anything and it might be better to just eat the money at this point.

It might depend a little bit on what they see in Madris. He's started to play games at 1B in AAA, so maybe they see a kind of platoon with Chavis in the cards. I'm not really sure -- the only thing that I think really matters is maximizing Cruz at shortstop, with occasional DH appearances. Given Suwinski + Mitchell, he really has no business being forced into the OF this season. I think the frequency of the errors will tick down and not be that big of a deal anyways. Longer term, they can work to add more OF experience to keep his bat in the lineup with more flexibility, but IMO it is absolutely imperative to play him at shortstop the rest of this season. The prototype for what his game can be is Tatis.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Perfect relay.

 

[Gallatin]

I think the little ad campaign around the Cruz promotion was shameless, and it is especially true with the way the Indianapolis social media accounts have been tongue-in-cheek for a few weeks now. It is what it is -- I'm glad that Baker's comments from a bit ago weren't actually about the future, and that we are rolling out with Cruz immediately upon super two safely clearing.

For the sake of clarity, super two simply secures that Cruz will still be pre-arb eligible in 2025 rather than start getting arbitration hearings. The Pirates control his rights for 7 seasons, through 2029, and the only way that would have changed is if he didn't accrue 20 days of service this year (it's 15 normally, but since he had a few last year, that would be the safe cut-off for the actual extra year of service), on the one hand, or if he won/finished second in ROY voting on the other.

Given how thin the race really has been this year, I don't think it's out of the question that Cruz could still enter the ROY mix. Steamer has been and still is pretty bullish on him, and it's a pretty accurate projection system.

Cruz has pretty consistently managed to have a patient approach at the plate and avoid spiraling into stretches where his swing gets long and he chases. He'd had that issue a few times early on last year, and I saw it again for a week or so earlier this year, but mostly he's managed to eliminate it. I think the idea that sometimes seems to be floating out there that he has bad plate discipline is just subjective because of how big he is. The walk rate in particular this year is something to be very excited about, and hopefully he will hit the ground running.

I think it makes sense to have him higher in the order because his speed makes him a real threat. I do think a healthy Marcano has earned some run as a leadoff batter, but I would also like to see us have Cruz hitting in front of Hayes at some point soon.

Cruz made some nice progress on plate patience in May & June. I think that was a legit step forward for him as a hitter.