OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Draft Day!

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DJ Spinoza

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Probably somewhere between a scrimmage and a pro game in all honesty, but nice that he's hitting the ground running. Looking forward to trying to parse him playing for Bradenton on the 20 FPS video with the wonky camera operation (the announcers are great and I am sure the operation has a shoestring budget).
 

ChaosAgent

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Friendly reminder: Trolling Buccos fans won't be tolerated AT ALL in this thread. If you want to be uber cynical, go to Facebook. We have built a "safe space" for fun baseball discussion and we intend on keeping it that way.

I don't view this recent thing as a troll as much as it is someone holding onto a mistaken belief about Taillon.

At some point the lines blur between delusion and trolling - we see it in the Steelers thread with Josh Dobbs - but this one erred more towards delusion, to me.

Personally when I saw the Taillon return I did have the thought in the back of my mind that we could have held onto him and tried to flip him at the TDL instead. That thought exited my brain when I saw Roansy and Yajure pitch.
 

DJ Spinoza

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As people are saying, the clear and obvious objection to Monday morning quarterbacking the Taillon deal is that Contreras is probably just as good as any prospect who traded hands at the deadline -- Gray is probably better, and I suppose Madrigal if you want to count him or compare them.

But even setting that aside, I don't think there's a nitpick with process, which is more important than results still TBD for at least 1-2 years. Best case scenario looks like Taillon probably throws up 2-4 solid starts in July, increasing his value somewhat. Earlier, weaker starts are probably looked at more harshly on a bad team in a pitcher's park than a Yankees team in a bandbox, and there will always be the leverage of 2nd TJS working against him. You are not getting a Berrios-style return. Maybe you get something like the Cubs managed to get for Rizzo, although again, wildly different players to compare.

I do think given how he performed last year and what the market looked like this year, there's room to question the process with Musgrove (here the results much less, given that the centerpiece is barely 20). Musgrove had his question marks, but he looked to be fully turning a corner, and you probably do get a similar return as Berrios. He doesn't have quite the same pedigree, but he as a WS ring. His numbers have gotten slightly worse month by month, such that I think he really is just a very good #3, but he's enough to both give you innings and impact a playoff game.

That trade was a calculated risk -- Musgrove regresses and you probably get very little, or hold until the offseason and it's still a mess. The risk is now spread over 5 players who all are showing some good signs. Given where things stand, I think you could raise at least two specific, process-based criticisms: 1) higher upside, quality more than quantity return at the deadline this year; 2) extension candidate as a veteran pitcher to go along with Reynolds and Hayes heading into next year and beyond.

Either of those two options might be a better decision than the one that was made, but it's really an apples to oranges comparison, especially since the trade pieces are so spread out. Cruz might be an efficient mid/backend lefty, Head remains young and projectible, hitting for power in an environment where that is not common, Rodriguez continues to fly under the radar but shows promise, Bednar is MLB quality relief and might be leverage, and Fellows remains a dev project. You could realistically end up with three contributors out of that mix, and if one is a power/speed everyday OF, you'll be pretty hard pressed to think that even option #1 from above would have netted you a better situation.

Overall, my take on Cherington is that it's excessive to totally fawn over everything he's done. He's executed the first and easier part of a rebuild very well, by all signs so far, and now the big question is what's next. 2022 is going to be a real uphill battle after 100+ losses, but short of something stunning prior to 2023 (like signing a star), biding our time and sitting on our hands next year shouldn't be an option. San Francisco and Washington both showed that you can get above average veteran talent if you make smart decisions and are willing to pay for veterans on shorter deals. At this point we know who in the current organization is not an option, and have some new blood to look at as we wait for AA prospects to develop, which is likely a full year in most cases at least.

The next step for 2022 should be modestly investing in a few more veterans: pay a veteran SP 8-12M for a year and not just 1.5M on a lark. If nothing else, those kinds of moves for 2022 will give you some realistic and viable trade chips for next deadline -- being totally stagnant will have you looking more like a team like the Rockies, which is not a good thing.
 

ChaosAgent

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Overall, my take on Cherington is that it's excessive to totally fawn over everything he's done. He's executed the first and easier part of a rebuild very well, by all signs so far, and now the big question is what's next. 2022 is going to be a real uphill battle after 100+ losses, but short of something stunning prior to 2023 (like signing a star), biding our time and sitting on our hands next year shouldn't be an option. San Francisco and Washington both showed that you can get above average veteran talent if you make smart decisions and are willing to pay for veterans on shorter deals. At this point we know who in the current organization is not an option, and have some new blood to look at as we wait for AA prospects to develop, which is likely a full year in most cases at least.

The next step for 2022 should be modestly investing in a few more veterans: pay a veteran SP 8-12M for a year and not just 1.5M on a lark. If nothing else, those kinds of moves for 2022 will give you some realistic and viable trade chips for next deadline -- being totally stagnant will have you looking more like a team like the Rockies, which is not a good thing.

This is spot-on. Has he done the trading, draft and developmental stuff well so far? Yes. He gets an A- to A for that.

At the MLB level, his track record with reclamation projects and development is horrible here so far. Evans isn't going to pan out. Fowler gone. We got rid of Goodwin for some reason (that was immediately dumb and has been proven so afterwards). Difo fun but meh. Evans sucks. Tom sucked. De Jong? Cahill? Most of the guys they brought in for the bullpen? All bad.

Anderson was a good pickup and Nogowski is fun and shows some promise to be a solid bench bat. Gamel was a good pickup.

At the end of the day the core of the roster is going to be so dang cheap over the next couple years that there should be $30-$40M out there to spend. Maybe it's buying prospects by taking on albatross contracts with some upside - like Wil Myers. Maybe it's mid-tier FAs like Liriano and Martin originally were.

I love the way that Cherington is building up the system but the jury is very much out on his ability to construct a competitive MLB roster with a tight budget. Especially with the clear and obvious need we'll have for lots and lots of pitching over the next 5-6 years.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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This is basically a troll job by Shelton. As long as it's just day 1 of Park playing consecutively, whatever, but if it means tomorrow Hayes sits while Castro plays 3B, Park 2B, and Newman SS...
 

DJ Spinoza

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Newman couldn't be more worthless if he was attempting to singlehandedly get us pick 1.1 in 2022. There's no excuse for him to be in the lineup tomorrow, which I'm sure is a statement that can also be said in light of what he does tomorrow when Shelton starts him again.
 

ChaosAgent

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Does Hayes hit another homer this year?

Just checking in to say that any proclamations of Hayes = franchise player are premature.

He looks like a golfer with a gazillion swing thoughts up there. He looks like hitting is a completely foreign concept to him.

To be honest he needs a phantom injury or something to regain whatever instincts he has.

Edit: the deterioration of Hayes' bat is by far the biggest negative for the team this year.
 

ChaosAgent

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Polanco looking the best he's looked all year but against a nasty lefty.

I hate the odds. But I still prefer it to seeing Newman or Hayes up there.
 

ChaosAgent

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Polanco is whatever...but among his many ills, he has undoubtedly been victimized by the shift throughout his career.

So to see him get a little bit of revenge on the shift, for one night, is nice. Let's try to grab some insurance.
 
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ChaosAgent

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I like what I have seen out of Park so far and Castro is servicable all over the field. From what I saw, Brault looked sharp.

Hayes' bat is approaching Defcon 5 emergency levels in my mind. After last year, the idea that he's basically a .650 OPS guy is unacceptable but that is where he is at. He has no idea what he is doing up there.

I don't think this is making mountains out of molehills. This is the supposed Franchise Player turning into a Pumpkin in front of our eyes.
 

Gallatin

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I like what I have seen out of Park so far and Castro is servicable all over the field. From what I saw, Brault looked sharp.

Hayes' bat is approaching Defcon 5 emergency levels in my mind. After last year, the idea that he's basically a .650 OPS guy is unacceptable but that is where he is at. He has no idea what he is doing up there.

I don't think this is making mountains out of molehills. This is the supposed Franchise Player turning into a Pumpkin in front of our eyes.

And it happens all the time. Almost every time. The League adjusted and pushed back and he's still trying to figure it out. I'm sure that wrist is still a problem too, players are notoriously slow to fully recover from those... I'm not evaluating this guy until mid-next year.
 

ImporterExporter

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ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
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And it happens all the time. Almost every time. The League adjusted and pushed back and he's still trying to figure it out. I'm sure that wrist is still a problem too, players are notoriously slow to fully recover from those... I'm not evaluating this guy until mid-next year.

Same.

We all got ahead of ourselves with the kid but he showed last year and the early portions of this year he can damage a baseball. The question is how healthy is the wrist, and will he adjust back towards the plus side of the equation? I'd imagine the off season will give him time to heal and reset. If he's hitting like this through next May/June....then you can truly worry.
 

Gallatin

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Same.

We all got ahead of ourselves with the kid but he showed last year and the early portions of this year he can damage a baseball. The question is how healthy is the wrist, and will he adjust back towards the plus side of the equation? I'd imagine the off season will give him time to heal and reset. If he's hitting like this through next May/June....then you can truly worry.

Word. Hays will improve next year at minimum - I'm not really sure how much though. I do still believe however that he's got 300/400/500 type potential. And the Gold Glove of course. An extremely valuable player potentially. Solid starter is his floor IMO if he stays healthy.
 
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