I want to see Archer pitch under someone other than Searage... Chris Archer was never this bad until he came to Pittsburgh and I think Searage was a big reason for that
OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Down The Drain
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I want to see Archer pitch under someone other than Searage... Chris Archer was never this bad until he came to Pittsburgh and I think Searage was a big reason for that
DJ Spinoza
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I'm still basically checked out on recent events / the offseason / and next year, but overall I can certainly live with Huntington staying. I don't think everything can be placed at Nutting's feet, but just off the top of my head, in order for us to have a chance at being relevant next year, we need to spend some money at catcher and pitcher, and not Lonnie Chisenhall money.
The coaching staff situation seems to be about the best case scenario, especially, though not to single him out, Tom Prince. We need an entirely fresh crew there, and I'm glad Cruz and Eckstein will stay. I actually agree with Kendall's comments about the manager, so I don't think the actual person is going to be hugely important, but I think just for the way it sets a tone, we need somebody who is currently outside the organization and maybe looking for their first big opportunity.
I will be able to live with Banister, because he's had success before with Texas, but I'd rather get one of the other candidates whose name has been kicked around, even Don Kelley if the qualification includes a Pittsburgh guy. If we hire Wehner, given how much of a Neanderthal he is, I don't know if I'll even be able to muster half-ass interest in the offseason. That wouldn't put us in much different territory than Hurdle, and I don't think it matters that much, but it would be a truly bizarre type of move if Huntington is actually making decisions. In fact, this might be a little melodramatic, but I'd go as far as to say if Wehner is the hire, then it signals that the sweeping changes and last gasp for NH aren't actually clean cut.
The coaching staff situation seems to be about the best case scenario, especially, though not to single him out, Tom Prince. We need an entirely fresh crew there, and I'm glad Cruz and Eckstein will stay. I actually agree with Kendall's comments about the manager, so I don't think the actual person is going to be hugely important, but I think just for the way it sets a tone, we need somebody who is currently outside the organization and maybe looking for their first big opportunity.
I will be able to live with Banister, because he's had success before with Texas, but I'd rather get one of the other candidates whose name has been kicked around, even Don Kelley if the qualification includes a Pittsburgh guy. If we hire Wehner, given how much of a Neanderthal he is, I don't know if I'll even be able to muster half-ass interest in the offseason. That wouldn't put us in much different territory than Hurdle, and I don't think it matters that much, but it would be a truly bizarre type of move if Huntington is actually making decisions. In fact, this might be a little melodramatic, but I'd go as far as to say if Wehner is the hire, then it signals that the sweeping changes and last gasp for NH aren't actually clean cut.
Winger for Hire
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The internet only exists to troll Pirate fans...
ETA the bases load punchout on 99 paint...
ETA the bases load punchout on 99 paint...
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Winger for Hire
Praise Beebo
Empoleon8771
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Oh boy, they get a new contract deal without giving out specifics so they don't have to raise payroll.
Coastal Kev
There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
lot of leverage with a garbage team for hte forseeable future and interest at a recent nadir
few seconds later glasnow EMBARRASSES correa on a pitch that bounced a foot in front of the plate
few seconds later glasnow EMBARRASSES correa on a pitch that bounced a foot in front of the plate
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Coastal Kev
There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
I heard that Bob was taking the entire Front Office staff to Red Lobster tonight for a job well done!
JimmyTwoTimes
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Well that is the reason we are now without Hurdle/Searage....so im glad those players are doing what they are.
People can blame NH for trading but Searage was the one who didnt use Glasnow right. Hurdle wouldn't keep Meadows in the damn lineup...actually causing a cold streak lol. He went from having one of the best starts in the teams history for a rookie to actually being benche...ending a streak and his confidence with it at the time.
Remember both players "value's" not being what they once were? Doesn't mean NH should have traded and he likely doesnt if we dont go on that damn win streak lol...but he went all in and those were the guys he had to offer to beat out ATL and MIL. And there was also the idea that Searage would turn Archer into another AJ Burnett/Liriano but even better. So another example of his failures of late.
Now lets see what NH does without them.
DJ Spinoza
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Part of why I only have marginal interest in baseball right now is because of how depressing it is, as we get reminders/remind ourselves on every page.
I do think there are some positive building blocks which will emerge a little more fully when the clear light of a winter break sets in, and I'd go as far as to say that even with the on/off-field drama and catastrophic conclusion to the season (post-ASB onwards), there's not really a whole that that has changed relative to where I'd calibrate my expectations if the team hadn't folded like a house of cards and instead finished a couple of games ahead of where the Reds did.
We'd still be heading into 2020 needing a number of internal things to go absolutely right, plus some good luck/good initiative elsewhere, plus some more after that. That's the nature of rooting for the Pirates given MLB's landscape. I'm hopeful that a new pitching coach will help Keller continue to unlock some more levels – some of the surface stats aren't nice, but below the surface there's a whole lot to like, given how consistently he got Ks. You add in general experience and a better pitching coach and catcher to help him work on sequencing, and he'll be a very good front-end starter soon.
The "plus some more after that" for this offseason probably takes on even more significance, since somehow the 2019 disaster took a situation where I'd say pretty much the entire fairweather/casual fans were already pretty hostile, and careened into a situation where there's almost no one with more than a passing connection to what was once an interest in rooting for this team. For me, the limit of what it would take to get me at least somewhat back in the game starts and ends with signing Grandal, which isn't going to happen.
There will be plenty of time for this talk in November and December, but the safety option of Travis d'Arnaud absolutely needs to happen in that event, and then we need some more on top of that. Give me a catcher and Wheeler or go f*** off.
I do think there are some positive building blocks which will emerge a little more fully when the clear light of a winter break sets in, and I'd go as far as to say that even with the on/off-field drama and catastrophic conclusion to the season (post-ASB onwards), there's not really a whole that that has changed relative to where I'd calibrate my expectations if the team hadn't folded like a house of cards and instead finished a couple of games ahead of where the Reds did.
We'd still be heading into 2020 needing a number of internal things to go absolutely right, plus some good luck/good initiative elsewhere, plus some more after that. That's the nature of rooting for the Pirates given MLB's landscape. I'm hopeful that a new pitching coach will help Keller continue to unlock some more levels – some of the surface stats aren't nice, but below the surface there's a whole lot to like, given how consistently he got Ks. You add in general experience and a better pitching coach and catcher to help him work on sequencing, and he'll be a very good front-end starter soon.
The "plus some more after that" for this offseason probably takes on even more significance, since somehow the 2019 disaster took a situation where I'd say pretty much the entire fairweather/casual fans were already pretty hostile, and careened into a situation where there's almost no one with more than a passing connection to what was once an interest in rooting for this team. For me, the limit of what it would take to get me at least somewhat back in the game starts and ends with signing Grandal, which isn't going to happen.
There will be plenty of time for this talk in November and December, but the safety option of Travis d'Arnaud absolutely needs to happen in that event, and then we need some more on top of that. Give me a catcher and Wheeler or go f*** off.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
All depends on who we hire and choose to fill dugout. More lackeys or people who are willing to take risks?
Richard
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The point is..... it doesn't matter who we hire. This team was getting ahead by smartly overpaying draft picks. That system is capped once again (in favor of the large market clubs yet again).
The Pirates will never win a world series. They will never pay top buck for a guy. They will never keep a guy who has FA option no matter how necessary.
Worse than all that, they will trade prospects to dump a couple hundred K salary for a season.
Take the Pirate free plunge (no game attendance since 17, no watching on Tv as well). Feels great man, feels great.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Never forget we used to own Gerrit Cole. He's an absolute boss.
Ray Searage should be tarred and feathered. I think it's beyond obvious he and Hurdle are the reasons why our pitching has never developed right. I'm really praying the new regime can get the most out of Keller. He was going down the same path of Glasnow.
Seeing all these guys dominate with other teams so shortly after leaving Pittsburgh is just enraging.
Ray Searage should be tarred and feathered. I think it's beyond obvious he and Hurdle are the reasons why our pitching has never developed right. I'm really praying the new regime can get the most out of Keller. He was going down the same path of Glasnow.
Seeing all these guys dominate with other teams so shortly after leaving Pittsburgh is just enraging.
DanielPlainview
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JimmyTwoTimes
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That's what NH has to get right in who he hires. There's no doubt there have been guys out there watching what has been going on with our pitching and thinking they can fix(see Pens before Sullivan). They better get in contact with NH lol
Like I said we can blame him for making those trades but it starts with the coaching for devaluing them in the first place. One of last straws was Archer not even looking good with Searage(when he was the perfect candidate) , making NH look horrible for that move. And once we lost Taillon then Vazquez? That was it...nail in coffin for changes to be made now.
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If NH didnt add guys like Reynolds and Cruz, and some of these draft picks who look like steals. Hayes with 32nd pick. Tucker at 23 when he seemed liked a "reach". Yeah he hasnt put it all together yet but reading scouting reports they still like him the most out of everyone. Newman turning out the way he did. Mason Martin in the 17tth round. Jared Oliva and Cody Bolton with back to back picks(6th and 7th round in 2017) and so on. Oliva is breaking out right before our eyes. Usually happens in AZFL and that's what hes doing. 17 hits in 10 games...leading the league. His 6 doubles and 7 SBs are also tops in the league. .425/549/645 with OPS of 1.174
Winter Leagues: Arizona Fall League: Statistics
He reminds me of another Reynolds type just not with the track record. But it's funny that Oliva is breaking out now while BR was bad in AZFL . Oliva is also faster and better D while Reynolds is a better hitter with a lil more power(at least right now). But same size..age. Interested to see Oliva get his chance ....since i believe we have to trade Marte with him basically being our only asset right now...after Vazquez f***ing things up
DJ Spinoza
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Searage's approach was very good before the entire league caught up and then changed things around. He did hinder Cole significantly, I think, but it's still a bit too linear to me to place every single bit of the blame at his feet. My read of the Glasnow situation is that he was not listening to the coaches at this level, which if true, would not be unjustifiable. There was a moment there in the same season that Taillon basically ignored the coaching to throw a slider, if I'm not mistaken.
I don't think Keller was headed down the same path as Glasnow, even though it's beyond obvious that Searage needed to go due to him breaking on the scene and Searage's general failure in approach. I think the situation with Keller is more tied into how bad the catching was, and Tom Prince is somebody at fault there, and Keller's general inexperience. He needs a slightly different approach with his fastball usage (namely, to blow them by guys upstairs primarily) and better sequencing and he's going to be extremely good.
All that to say, Searage absolutely needed to go, and Prince did too. There's reason for some optimism depending on who they bring in. Things can and do change dramatically from year to year even with largely the same staff. Whoever gets the pitching coach job will have their work cut out for them, and IMO still needs to be getting somebody like Wheeler in free agency, so that guys like Agrazal and Marvel are #7 or below where they belong on the depth chart. It's that latter caveat that will prevent me from having too much hope, even if whoever we get as pitching coach seems to show some promise.
I don't think Keller was headed down the same path as Glasnow, even though it's beyond obvious that Searage needed to go due to him breaking on the scene and Searage's general failure in approach. I think the situation with Keller is more tied into how bad the catching was, and Tom Prince is somebody at fault there, and Keller's general inexperience. He needs a slightly different approach with his fastball usage (namely, to blow them by guys upstairs primarily) and better sequencing and he's going to be extremely good.
All that to say, Searage absolutely needed to go, and Prince did too. There's reason for some optimism depending on who they bring in. Things can and do change dramatically from year to year even with largely the same staff. Whoever gets the pitching coach job will have their work cut out for them, and IMO still needs to be getting somebody like Wheeler in free agency, so that guys like Agrazal and Marvel are #7 or below where they belong on the depth chart. It's that latter caveat that will prevent me from having too much hope, even if whoever we get as pitching coach seems to show some promise.
This is a huge reason why I am still not calling the Archer trade a complete loss and a total disaster.... let's see him with a new fresh voice and see what happens. While he might have been declining slightly in Tampa he was never this bad until Searage got his hands on him... I still believe Chris Archer could be a good 1 or 2 starter
JRS91
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I know people give Huntington a hard time about drafting, but I don't think people look as deeply into it.
2008 - Alvarez
2009 - Sanchez
2010 - Taillon
2011 - Cole
2012 - Appel
2013 - Meadows/McGuire
2014 - Tucker/Joe
2015 - Newman/Hayes
2016 - Craig
2017 - Baz
2018 - Swaggerty
2019 - Priester
Sure, Alvarez didn't turn out. That's partly most likely due to the Pirates rushing him to the Majors. Tony Sanchez didn't work out either. Taillon is a very good pitcher when healthy, the guy's just had bad luck. Cole was good, but he's been fantastic in Houston. I think the disconnect between Searage and talented pitching starts to show here. Glasnow literally admitted that he didn't listen to the coaches here, it seems like it was a good thing, that or Tampa knows what they're doing. Trea Turner was a Pirates draft pick in 2011, the guy didn't sign.
I think overall, Huntington has done a decent job of drafting, if I needed to grade it, it'd be a C+. That said, there have been very questionable moves by him. I think it starts with trading Charlie Morton. I know a lot of people didn't care when Morton was traded, but at the time, I was wondering "why?". He didn't have the greatest season in 2015, but in a rotation where Burnett was retiring and Jeff Locke was somehow still in the rotation you trade a guy who's had a solid 3.5-3.7 ERA the previous two seasons, then sign Vogelsong? Seems like a bad tradeoff.
Then there was the trade involving Liriano to Toronto, where they gave up Reese McGuire and Harold Ramirez for Daniel Hutchinson. An absolutely bizarre trade. If it was a salary dump, why trade two of the top prospects in the organization? Then of course, Huntington's death throe was the Archer trade. Glasnow, nobody could really see that coming, the dude was absolutely mediocre during his time here. Meadows and Baz however, that was hard to swallow. I understand your point about Hurdle not playing Meadows and I understand the Pirates wanted an ace-type pitcher to replace Cole, but why Archer? Archer was basically all the negatives of Cole, without any of the positives. Had the Pirates just traded Glasnow and Baz, it would've been much more tolerable, but to trade Meadows is ridiculous. I'd be a lot more optimistic if we had an outfield of Reynolds and Meadows heading into 2020.
pistolpete11
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I think Huntington has done a decent job overall given the salary restrictions he has to work with, but he will never live that Archer trade down. Sure there were some other bad trades like Morton (which I agree was an underrated head scratcher, but I was always a Chuck fan) and Liriano, but that Archer trade could be an all-timer. He's got to be praying every night that the next pitching coach will be able to turn him back into a top of the rotation starter so that he can pin at least some of the blame on Searage. It will still be bad, but if Glasnow turns into a top of the rotation starter (which I'm still not sold on) and Archer is over the hill....whoof.
There were good moves, too, though, so given the handcuffs he is in, I don't think it is unreasonable to give him 1 more shot with a new coaching staff.
JimmyTwoTimes
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wheelz87
LGP
JimmyTwoTimes
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JRS91
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Well my point was he hasn't drafted as poorly as I keep hearing, not that the person I quoted was saying it.
The Pirates invest most their money into the draft, they seemingly want to be a team that builds through the draft. The issue is, when they develop talent, it seems they're willing to throw it away for nothing. Luplow, Meadows, Glasnow and Baz were traded 3 months apart. Imagine if those guys were with the team this season, you might not be talking playoffs, but perhaps a winning season. At least Luplow and Meadows if Hurdle played them. That's another thing, people cried years ago about the Pirates holding onto draft picks and not trading for "proven talent", well there you go. Granted, 2013 Chris Archer would've been a better example, but I think it shows the Pirates have a plan, and they shouldn't deviate.
They'll never spend big money in free agency. Surmise it to whatever, a cheap owner, an apathetic owner, whatever fans think of Bob Nutting, fact of the matter is they'll continue to trust the plan Huntington has laid out for over a decade. The issue is, he probably has a year to get something going and there's not too many bright spots in the organization. They have a first baseman, shortstop, third baseman, left fielder and center fielder. Frazier I'm ambivalent about, he's a decent bat but a terrible infielder, then again so are Moran and Bell. They could move Marte, but who replaces him? It's going to be a rough season if your outfield is Polanco, Reynolds and Osuna. Do Will Craig and Ke'Bryan Hayes get a shot? You already have guys at those positions though. They desperately need a catcher, I can't handle a platoon of Diaz and Stallings. They're both serviceable backups, neither are starters.
Speaking of starters, I think it's time to cut ties with Archer, that or they desperately need a relief pitcher to piggyback him. Some teams do it. You basically let the guy start, 3-4 innings, then once he starts getting in trouble you throw a dedicated long reliever out there. Archer isn't completely awful, he just has one really abysmal inning and that seems to define his entire game. 5 innings, 7 K's, 3 BB and 4-5 ER. Typical Chris Archer start. Taillon is good, but can't stay healthy. Williams and Musgrove are 5th starts or in the bullpen on good teams, I don't mind them both as 4th and 5th starters, but the Pirates desperately need help at SP. Cole, Strasburg, Odorizzi, Ryu and [URL='https://www.spotrac.com/redirect/player/7510/']Bumgarner are most likely not coming here. I think a Pirates-type "big free agent splash" would be Quintana, Anderson, or Porcello. Aside from d'Arnaud and Castillo, I'm not sure if I really want any free agent catchers, Neal Huntington will have to be savvy and get one via trade like he did Cervelli, take a chance. Right now, I'm not very optimistic, we'll see if that changes over the winter. [/URL]
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