Radim Vrbata Pt. 2

Intangibos

High-End Intangibos
Apr 5, 2010
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Exactly!

Vrbata won't produce with either Sutter or Horvat. Sutter can't carry enough of a 5v5 offensive load, he will stagnate both Baertschi and Vrbata. Horvat will want to push pace with Baertschi, and I think you need a steady two way presence on that line when you have someone that young at C, with a pure offensive winger.

If we were playing for a cup, I would agree. However, I think we saw that Horvat can play a two way game, I'd like to see what he could do with two offensive players on his wings, and I'd like to see what Baertschi could do with guys like Horvat and Vrbata.

If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but I'd love to let them develop their games together. We can give the Sutter line the tough matchups, and if the Horvat line does get a tough one, Horvat can play a bit more defensively and focus on moving the play up the ice.
 

F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
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Barring any decline and injuries, Vrbata is a safe bet for 20+ goals and 40+ points. If he's playing with Horvat full time, I expect 20+ goals and around 50 points. Vrbata is more talented than Burrows and the numbers playing with and without the Sedins have reflected this.
 

DL44

Status quo
Sep 26, 2006
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Also factor in he's used to making chicken soup outta chicken sh!! In Arizona... he'll be alright production wise next yr... he'll still be on the first unit PP all season.

The unfortunate part is.. we're likely unable to capitalize on swinging him for quality assets due to being in a playoff race.

Our best bet is Virtanen starts the season hot and has chemistry with the twins. (Unlikely)

That would enable Benning to pull off a TDL like move for Vrbata in Dec ish.
 
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dave babych returns

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
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The canucks should look to move Radim Vrbata.

Simply from a stylistic standpoint, if they're not going to play Vrbata with the twins - is Vrbata really the guy you want to play with Horvat and Svenbae?

For me, it isn't. I don't think management has intentions of re-signing him either. Should do it now before he demands a trade, or is struggling with production because he doesn't fit on a line with the speed of Bae and Horvat.

He's our best forward after the Sedins (you could make an argument for Burrows I suppose).

A second line of some combination of Higgins/Baertschi/Horvat/Sutter/Hansen/? and a third line of the leftovers is going to be a disaster.

And this management group does not want a (regular season) disaster.
 

F A N

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Aug 12, 2005
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A second line of some combination of Higgins/Baertschi/Horvat/Sutter/Hansen/? and a third line of the leftovers is going to be a disaster.

And this management group does not want a (regular season) disaster.

I don't think it will be a disaster unless it's a worst case scenario. It should at least be as good as last year. Horvat and Sutter as 2nd line and 3rd line centre should (hopefully) be better than Bonino and Richardson/Vey. Higgins and Hansen are what they are and there shouldn't be a drastic decline. The same applies to Burrows. The wild card of course is Baertschi and I assume that if he's not good enough to be a 2nd line contributor he won't be taking away minutes from guys who played a 2nd and 3rd line role last season.

Obviously, on paper, things don't look too good. But Horvat taking another step forward can really change the complexion of the team.
 

arsmaster*

Guest
I don't think it will be a disaster unless it's a worst case scenario. It should at least be as good as last year. Horvat and Sutter as 2nd line and 3rd line centre should (hopefully) be better than Bonino and Richardson/Vey. Higgins and Hansen are what they are and there shouldn't be a drastic decline. The same applies to Burrows. The wild card of course is Baertschi and I assume that if he's not good enough to be a 2nd line contributor he won't be taking away minutes from guys who played a 2nd and 3rd line role last season.

Obviously, on paper, things don't look too good. But Horvat taking another step forward can really change the complexion of the team.

Not really.

I don't know why you decided to put the "slash" between Richardson and Vey. Vey played RW in Kassian's spot when he played on that 3rd line.

People hope Horvat is an upgrade on Bonino and Sutter is an upgrade on Richardson. I have a hard time thinking these aren't both lateral moves at best at this point, and then that still leaves a lack of a good 4C on the roster, with Horvat needing to be replaced....can Vey do it? NOthing I saw to end last season suggests it, but maybe he'll actually show up ready this year.
 

dave babych returns

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Dec 2, 2011
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I don't think it will be a disaster unless it's a worst case scenario. It should at least be as good as last year. Horvat and Sutter as 2nd line and 3rd line centre should (hopefully) be better than Bonino and Richardson/Vey. Higgins and Hansen are what they are and there shouldn't be a drastic decline. The same applies to Burrows. The wild card of course is Baertschi and I assume that if he's not good enough to be a 2nd line contributor he won't be taking away minutes from guys who played a 2nd and 3rd line role last season.

Obviously, on paper, things don't look too good. But Horvat taking another step forward can really change the complexion of the team.

Why would this group be "at least as good as last year" if we follow that posters suggestion and move the most prolific scorer from last year out of the group?

I expect Horvat and Baertschi to produce like young players, ie. inconsistently, and if they fall down the lineup due to a lack of production then you're talking about going from Higgins/Bonino/Vrbata to Higgins/Sutter/Hansen (no Burrows, he's on the Sedin line in this scenario) which is absolutely a downgrade - and the bottom six sees a corresponding downgrade as well.

Unless of course there's some misunderstanding here and you're not working within the scenario poster "peen" laid out..
 

Peen

Rejoicing in a Benning-free world
Oct 6, 2013
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If we were playing for a cup, I would agree. However, I think we saw that Horvat can play a two way game, I'd like to see what he could do with two offensive players on his wings, and I'd like to see what Baertschi could do with guys like Horvat and Vrbata.

If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but I'd love to let them develop their games together. We can give the Sutter line the tough matchups, and if the Horvat line does get a tough one, Horvat can play a bit more defensively and focus on moving the play up the ice.


Horvat clearly can play a two way game, but with the addition of Sutter, Sutter should be handling 15 minutes a night against the other teams top offensive line. Horvat, and the second line should be given free offensive reign. If we still had Nick Bonino, I'd be perfectly fine playing a line of Baertschi - Bonino - Vrbata, because Bonino is a steady presence, who understand the game very well, had chemistry with Vrbata, and can ease Baertschi along. I don't think Horvat and Vrbata will have chemistry. I think that Vrbata will, while be steady in the offensive zone, be at a difference pace and understanding than those two.


Barring any decline and injuries, Vrbata is a safe bet for 20+ goals and 40+ points. If he's playing with Horvat full time, I expect 20+ goals and around 50 points. Vrbata is more talented than Burrows and the numbers playing with and without the Sedins have reflected this.

Vrbata is definitely a safe bet for those statistics. However, will that even matter when this team is destined for a 7-11 seed in the west? He's more talented than Burrows, that's for sure. Burrows is clearly past it, but they're sticking with him on that line, and Willie indicated to the media this summer that he thinks that the sedins are at their best with someone to go to the dirty areas. Why that can't give RK41 that chance is beyond me.

The most important thing to me is the continued development of young players.

He's our best forward after the Sedins (you could make an argument for Burrows I suppose).

A second line of some combination of Higgins/Baertschi/Horvat/Sutter/Hansen/? and a third line of the leftovers is going to be a disaster.

And this management group does not want a (regular season) disaster.

He is.

Baertschi - Horvat - Kenins or Virtanen - again (given free offensive reign vs 3rd lines)
Higgins - Sutter - Hansen (shut down line)

Then this management is steering this pile of average into a pile of ****. We're wasting assets, wasting seasons.
Why would this group be "at least as good as last year" if we follow that posters suggestion and move the most prolific scorer from last year out of the group?

I expect Horvat and Baertschi to produce like young players, ie. inconsistently, and if they fall down the lineup due to a lack of production then you're talking about going from Higgins/Bonino/Vrbata to Higgins/Sutter/Hansen (no Burrows, he's on the Sedin line in this scenario) which is absolutely a downgrade - and the bottom six sees a corresponding downgrade as well.

Unless of course there's some misunderstanding here and you're not working within the scenario poster "peen" laid out..

We're not going to be as good as last year, and the rest of the western conference has gotten better.

Radim Vrbata has now lost Nick Bonino, a linemate who could actually be productive at even strength. Desjardins has told the media, indicated to me personally @ the summit that Baertschi will be given his chances as a top six f/w. Benning has said they see him as a top six f/w. He's ineligible to be send down without waivers. They're going to have to make Baertschi be the player he can be NOW.

If you're playing Sutter with Baertschi, his production will go down because Sutter is not a good even strength producer.

I've explained my side with a player development, and chemistry mindset - but tell me this everyone - why, from an asset management perspective, do we keep a forward who we likely don't re-sign? He signed in this city to play with the Sedins. If we're going to be a low seed, or out of the race, and he is without a contract by the deadline, benning will trade him for less than what we could have gotten. And Benning was asked on 1040 if it's likely that both Hamhuis and Vrbata are either re-signed or traded - and he said that's fair.
 

arsmaster*

Guest
We're not a matchup team peen.

And I don't want Sutter playing 18-20 minutes against opposition top lines (other teams play their best players more than 15 minutes). Sure he might be able to swim in that scenario, but he's also eating up a ton of icetime that needs to go elsewhere. The best way to defend is to attack.

We're going to continue rolling 4 lines, that's a given or there is absolutely ZERO positives to paying $5.1m to Dorsett and Prust. They'll have to play. I think it's more important to have a balanced line-up.

I'd prefer a true #1 line and two 2B's or 3A's.

Twins-Vrbata
Baertchi-Horvat-Burrows (although Hansen or Higgins would make good linemates for Bo too)
Higgins-Sutter-Hansen
Prust-Vey-Dorsett

That would be the makeup of my lines. I'd prefer if they looked harder to exploit matchups and limited the ice of the 4th line, but I can't say I'm confident in that occurring.
 

Vtownfan

Registered User
Jul 8, 2015
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Also factor in he's used to making chicken soup outta chicken sh!! In Arizona... he'll be alright production wise next yr... he'll still be on the first unit PP all season.

The unfortunate part is.. we're likely unable to capitalize on swinging him for quality assets due to being in a playoff race.

Our best bet is Virtanen starts the season hot and has chemistry with the twins. (Unlikely)

That would enable Benning to pull off a TDL like move for Vrbata in Dec ish.

I can only imagine that trade.... Vrbata and a 2nd round pick for Cody McLeod and a 7th.
 

Bankerguy

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Apr 28, 2013
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If the Canucks finish bottom 10 (likely) and they are able to flip a vet like Vrbata for a 1st round pick....maybe another vet for a 2nd round pick..then they'll have the assets needed to move up and get a really high pick..top 3-5'ish

I think that there is a slew great two way guys, guys with goal scoring potential, guys with grit and some skill in the system. Like: Virtanen, Horvat, McCann, Sven, Boeser, Shinkaruk, Cassels, Demko..... all that's missing is someone with more than "1st line potential" ... Canucks need a Forward prospect with Franchise potential. This is the year that it could happen. With a player like that, you surround him with the young prospects mentioned above...you have a nice variety of skillsets to compliment him.
 

Shareefruck

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Apr 2, 2005
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Also factor in he's used to making chicken soup outta chicken sh!! In Arizona... he'll be alright production wise next yr... he'll still be on the first unit PP all season.

The unfortunate part is.. we're likely unable to capitalize on swinging him for quality assets due to being in a playoff race.

Our best bet is Virtanen starts the season hot and has chemistry with the twins. (Unlikely)

That would enable Benning to pull off a TDL like move for Vrbata in Dec ish.
Virtanen with the Sedins is arguably the worst fit possible, for the same reasons that David Booth was. He'd probably be more effective playing with a Kesler type or a distributor who doesn't like to hold onto the puck.
 

DL44

Status quo
Sep 26, 2006
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Virtanen with the Sedins is arguably the worst fit possible, for the same reasons that David Booth was. He'd probably be more effective playing with a Kesler type or a distributor who doesn't like to hold onto the puck.

Oh I know...
I'm just saying.... Best case scenario... Imagine the flexibility and options we would have if he actually clicked with the Twins.
Dream scenario.
The trickle down effect would be awesome, and our retool expedited.

Edit.. I see... I used 'best bet' suggesting it was likely... Sorry, not what I meant Best case scenario...
 

Shareefruck

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
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Oh I know...
I'm just saying.... Best case scenario... Imagine the flexibility and options we would have if he actually clicked with the Twins.
Dream scenario.
The trickle down effect would be awesome, and our retool expedited.

Edit.. I see... I used 'best bet' suggesting it was likely... Sorry, not what I meant Best case scenario...
Oh, I see, I guess I misread that too.

Honestly, guys like Boeser, Jensen, or even Gaunce, seem to fit the twins much better.
 

dave babych returns

Registered User
Dec 2, 2011
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Horvat clearly can play a two way game, but with the addition of Sutter, Sutter should be handling 15 minutes a night against the other teams top offensive line. Horvat, and the second line should be given free offensive reign. If we still had Nick Bonino, I'd be perfectly fine playing a line of Baertschi - Bonino - Vrbata, because Bonino is a steady presence, who understand the game very well, had chemistry with Vrbata, and can ease Baertschi along. I don't think Horvat and Vrbata will have chemistry. I think that Vrbata will, while be steady in the offensive zone, be at a difference pace and understanding than those two.




Vrbata is definitely a safe bet for those statistics. However, will that even matter when this team is destined for a 7-11 seed in the west? He's more talented than Burrows, that's for sure. Burrows is clearly past it, but they're sticking with him on that line, and Willie indicated to the media this summer that he thinks that the sedins are at their best with someone to go to the dirty areas. Why that can't give RK41 that chance is beyond me.

The most important thing to me is the continued development of young players.



He is.

Baertschi - Horvat - Kenins or Virtanen - again (given free offensive reign vs 3rd lines)
Higgins - Sutter - Hansen (shut down line)

Then this management is steering this pile of average into a pile of ****. We're wasting assets, wasting seasons.


We're not going to be as good as last year, and the rest of the western conference has gotten better.

Radim Vrbata has now lost Nick Bonino, a linemate who could actually be productive at even strength. Desjardins has told the media, indicated to me personally @ the summit that Baertschi will be given his chances as a top six f/w. Benning has said they see him as a top six f/w. He's ineligible to be send down without waivers. They're going to have to make Baertschi be the player he can be NOW.

If you're playing Sutter with Baertschi, his production will go down because Sutter is not a good even strength producer.

I've explained my side with a player development, and chemistry mindset - but tell me this everyone - why, from an asset management perspective, do we keep a forward who we likely don't re-sign? He signed in this city to play with the Sedins. If we're going to be a low seed, or out of the race, and he is without a contract by the deadline, benning will trade him for less than what we could have gotten. And Benning was asked on 1040 if it's likely that both Hamhuis and Vrbata are either re-signed or traded - and he said that's fair.

I explained why we keep him. The middle six is a disaster without him and we're not rebuilding so "from an asset management perspective" is not a useful lens for predicting this teams behaviour.
 

kanucks25

Chris Tanev #1 Fan
Nov 29, 2013
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I thought he had his best game of the season last night.

Battled more than he usually does, setup the Sedins with some nice passes that they messed up and scored a nice goal :)

Always been a fan of Vrby, hope he keeps it up.
 

The Jesus*

Guest
There are lots of players in the league who won't backcheck. Vrbata is literally the only player I've ever seen that won't forecheck.

I have never seen a player take 2 strides towards a defender on the forecheck, then stop skating and say "**** it". Vrbata will score goals because of how often he shoots, but he is an absolutely atrocious hockey player.
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
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There are lots of players in the league who won't backcheck. Vrbata is literally the only player I've ever seen that won't forecheck.

I have never seen a player take 2 strides towards a defender on the forecheck, then stop skating and say "**** it". Vrbata will score goals because of how often he shoots, but he is an absolutely atrocious hockey player.

Wut.
 

TheWanderer

Registered User
Nov 15, 2013
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So is this guy going to pick it up any time soon? Not gonna lie, I feel like he's dragging the Sedins down because he is never ready to set up the cycle..
 

VanJack

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
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Vrbata will be JB's toughest decision at the deadline......earning $5m per season and no way he gets re-signed, but might be very attractive to a team looking for playoff depth because of his offense and expiring contract.....hope Jimbo doesn't make the same mistake he made with Mathias, who from all reports might have been worth as much as a second-rounder at the deadline and ended up walking for nothing.
 

David71

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Dec 27, 2008
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soft as butter. but i still like him as a player who is a goal scorer. hes just squeezing his stick to tight. maybe him and burrows trade places because vrbata doesnt fit the sedins cycle game at all. he stands in one place to wait for his chance to shoot.
 

VanJack

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
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Hoping JB does the right thing for the franchise at the deadline by dealing both Vrbata and Hamhuis for prospects/picks....neither guy will be anywhere near a Canuck team that's a serious Cup contender, and not sure either guy will be re-signed anyway.
 

Nuckles

_________
Apr 27, 2010
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Hoping JB does the right thing for the franchise at the deadline by dealing both Vrbata and Hamhuis for prospects/picks....neither guy will be anywhere near a Canuck team that's a serious Cup contender, and not sure either guy will be re-signed anyway.

Hamhuis for one-dimensional AHLer and Vrbata for an early 3rd that is basically a 2nd rounder so it's like we got a 2nd round pick.

I wish we'd trade them as well, just not with this management group doing the trade talks.
 

JA

Guest
Vrbata is snake-bitten this year. He has received chance after chance but can not bury the puck.




The team needs to trade him before his inexplicable struggle this season begins to affect his value. I appreciate his time here, but I'm certain that it was always going to end with him being traded before the expiration of his contract. If he had continued to play this year at the level he performed at last season, he could fetch a good return. If the team is patient, perhaps they will wait for him to pick things up this season. He should be moved before the end of the season, though. We shouldn't let him go for nothing.
 
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