Quebec still waiting patiently.

[Ted Hoffman]

QC will be fine.The labor/media deals are going to be resolved within the next 30 months and the expansion
process to 34 will begin within that timeframe. Bettman is in legacy mode now.

Your weekly reminder: the owners decide where teams will locate and if the league will expand - not Bettman.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

But Milwaukee pulls behind teams in large part based on the team's record.

So does literally every other team in sports.

The Brewers average low-to-mid 30s a season even with being good the last several years

Records this decade

77-85
96-66
83-79
74-88
82-80
68-94
73-89
86-76
96-67
41-36 (so far)

Do you even pay attention to baseball if you think the Brewers have been good the last several years? Two playoff appearances, two series wins, no World Series appearance a basically .500 regular season record. And this is the most successful part of team history in my life, a history that includes me being able to legally drink before seeing this team play a playoff game.

and a decent swath of that is fans from other teams. The Cubs and Cardinals show up, and Miller Park is near 50/50 home/away.

Yes, this also happens with other teams and Cardinals games are nowhere near 50/50.

And that's not even getting into all the ways one can get free tickets to Brewers games from a local convenience store or grocery store.

All the ways? You make it sound like there are dozens of ways and they hand them out like free samples. You have to spend $50 in a single order using your card, all of the games are weeknight games, the offer only went from March 20th - April 30th and it only included games in April and May before attendance picks up when the weather gets nicer and school gets out.

The other I can think of is BP where you have to make 7 purchases of 8 gallons of gas or more at select stations and you get a ticket to the cheapest sections outside of Bernie's Terrace for select, almost exclusively weeknight games.

You're just being wholly disingenuous about how easy it is and how often you can get "free" tickets which actually require spending a decent amount of money in order to get the ticket and the ticket is only for limited dates, mostly weekdays/nights where attendance is going to be lower.

 

[Boeser Fan]

what?

My exact reaction when you said that Arizona is 100% not moving

 

[Bixby Snyder]

My exact reaction when you said that Arizona is 100% not moving

Coyotes are staying in Arizona and if you're a Canucks fan that's what you should want also instead of having a western based team move to the other end of the continent.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Oh ffs.

You’ve been arguing that it could for years. A metro area of around 2 million people split between 3 top-level leagues and a very well supported program in Marquette doesn’t enough of a market share for a NHL team. And in addition, a good portion of the market have pre-existing Chicago sports loyalties. It’s not a feasible option. It’s a great area for hockey, but so is Saskatchewan. Doesn’t mean there is enough to keep a successful hockey team going.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

So does literally every other team in sports.

Oh, I think you can name at least one in the state of Wisconsin that doesn't follow this trend. I can name a few others in other sports. The only question then is how strongly cities follow the fortunes of their sports teams - and in the case of Milwaukee, I think it's pretty strong.

Records this decade

77-85
96-66
83-79
74-88
82-80
68-94
73-89
86-76
96-67
41-36 (so far)

Do you even pay attention to baseball if you think the Brewers have been good the last several years? Two playoff appearances, two series wins, no World Series appearance a basically .500 regular season record. And this is the most successful part of team history in my life, a history that includes me being able to legally drink before seeing this team play a playoff game.

You should have dragged in 2007-2009, because that kicked off the best stretch in Brewers history. The roughly 14 years before that? They were barely dogshit. 5 winning seasons in the last 9? 8 in 12? 3 playoff appearances? For the Brewers, that's pretty good - and they've cracked 35,000 average attendance in a 41,000 seat stadium exactly thrice (3 times). Last year was on par with 2011, and attendance was 2K lower.

But again, you're making my point here: Milwaukee doesn't sell out a stadium when the team is in one of its best stretches in team history, much less sell it out in one of the team's best years. If that's all the better it does for baseball, and if basketball doesn't do much better, why is hockey going to be any different?

Yes, this also happens with other teams and Cardinals games are nowhere near 50/50.

Seriously? I was at a game last year, the Cardinals fans outnumbered the Brewers fans AIWEC. I've seen other games, it's 50/50. Perhaps you're counting any empty seats as Brewers fans?

All the ways? You make it sound like there are dozens of ways and they hand them out like free samples. You have to spend $50 in a single order using your card, all of the games are weeknight games, the offer only went from March 20th - April 30th and it only included games in April and May before attendance picks up when the weather gets nicer and school gets out.

The other I can think of is BP where you have to make 7 purchases of 8 gallons of gas or more at select stations and you get a ticket to the cheapest sections outside of Bernie's Terrace for select, almost exclusively weeknight games.

Thanks for explaining how it all happens and partially illustrating my point. Right now though, I can still score free Brewers tickets for [select] games the rest of the year if I'm interested. Again, how would hockey be different from the Brewers and Bucks?

And again: I'd love to see an NHL team in Milwaukee. I just don't see any way it works unless the team is fantastic year-after-year, and even then I don't know that it's enough because I don't know that there's enough corporate support there to back a 3rd* pro team.

* not counting the Packers, who might as well be a local team too.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Actually, what's missing there is the mention of the University of Wisconsin sports and perhaps Marquette basketball. Otherwise, I agree with Barclay and I live near Milwaukee.

Look, I'd love to have an NHL team close. I'd probably do at least partial season tickets and make the trip in at least 20 times a year. But Milwaukee pulls behind teams in large part based on the team's record. The Brewers average low-to-mid 30s a season even with being good the last several years, and a decent swath of that is fans from other teams. The Cubs and Cardinals show up, and Miller Park is near 50/50 home/away. And that's not even getting into all the ways one can get free tickets to Brewers games from a local convenience store or grocery store. The Bucks did mid-15s by and large at Bradley Center while putting up largely mediocre or worse records, and I could get free tickets to Bucks games the same way I could (can) Brewers games.

I just don't see 17,000 people filling up Fiserv for hockey night in and night out - and that's being generous with capacity, since it's 17,500 for basketball. If the team is great, maybe; if it's not, it'll do probably 11,000-12,000 paid and there will be lots of freebies available at the local Pick 'N Save or BP. And that's just getting into the average fan; are there enough corporate dollars floating around to back another pro sports franchise? I think Milwaukee is lukewarm at best, and I don't think the NHL is going to entertain lukewarm cities for a moment.

So does literally every other team in sports.



Records this decade

77-85
96-66
83-79
74-88
82-80
68-94
73-89
86-76
96-67
41-36 (so far)

Do you even pay attention to baseball if you think the Brewers have been good the last several years? Two playoff appearances, two series wins, no World Series appearance a basically .500 regular season record. And this is the most successful part of team history in my life, a history that includes me being able to legally drink before seeing this team play a playoff game.



Yes, this also happens with other teams and Cardinals games are nowhere near 50/50.



All the ways? You make it sound like there are dozens of ways and they hand them out like free samples. You have to spend $50 in a single order using your card, all of the games are weeknight games, the offer only went from March 20th - April 30th and it only included games in April and May before attendance picks up when the weather gets nicer and school gets out.

The other I can think of is BP where you have to make 7 purchases of 8 gallons of gas or more at select stations and you get a ticket to the cheapest sections outside of Bernie's Terrace for select, almost exclusively weeknight games.

You're just being wholly disingenuous about how easy it is and how often you can get "free" tickets which actually require spending a decent amount of money in order to get the ticket and the ticket is only for limited dates, mostly weekdays/nights where attendance is going to be lower.

Oh, I think you can name at least one in the state of Wisconsin that doesn't follow this trend. I can name a few others in other sports. The only question then is how strongly cities follow the fortunes of their sports teams - and in the case of Milwaukee, I think it's pretty strong.



You should have dragged in 2007-2009, because that kicked off the best stretch in Brewers history. The roughly 14 years before that? They were barely dog****. 5 winning seasons in the last 9? 8 in 12? 3 playoff appearances? For the Brewers, that's pretty good - and they've cracked 35,000 average attendance in a 41,000 seat stadium exactly thrice (3 times). Last year was on par with 2011, and attendance was 2K lower.

But again, you're making my point here: Milwaukee doesn't sell out a stadium when the team is in one of its best stretches in team history, much less sell it out in one of the team's best years. If that's all the better it does for baseball, and if basketball doesn't do much better, why is hockey going to be any different?


Seriously? I was at a game last year, the Cardinals fans outnumbered the Brewers fans AIWEC. I've seen other games, it's 50/50. Perhaps you're counting any empty seats as Brewers fans?


Thanks for explaining how it all happens and partially illustrating my point. Right now though, I can still score free Brewers tickets for [select] games the rest of the year if I'm interested. Again, how would hockey be different from the Brewers and Bucks?

And again: I'd love to see an NHL team in Milwaukee. I just don't see any way it works unless the team is fantastic year-after-year, and even then I don't know that it's enough because I don't know that there's enough corporate support there to back a 3rd* pro team.

* not counting the Packers, who might as well be a local team too.

I agree with Mud. And let me just say those baseball attendance numbers are not that great and comparable to Montreal, which at 4 million people Admiral doesn't think should get a second crack at an MLB team.

 

[Boeser Fan]

Coyotes are staying in Arizona and if you're a Canucks fan that's what you should want also instead of having a western based team move to the other end of the continent.

I never said I wanted them to move. But you saying there 100% not moving because of the new investor is fake news and I call out people who spew fake news.

 

[gstommylee]

Coyotes are staying in Arizona and if you're a Canucks fan that's what you should want also instead of having a western based team move to the other end of the continent.

Even if the coyotes were moving what makes you think they would end up on the other side of the continent anyways?

The team is staying for up to 7 years we'll find out if they get that new arena in the meantime.

 

[gstommylee]

I never said I wanted them to move. But you saying there 100% not moving because of the new investor is fake news and I call out people who spew fake news.

There is a 7 year no relocation in place. They are staying for the time being unless a new arena can't be figure out.

 

[frivolousz21]

Its amazing that whatever kind of group Quebecor is will pay 750 million for an expansion fee.

When 24-25 years ago building a new arena would have been a fraction of that.

 

[frivolousz21]

Quebec City would be a fine NHL franchise.

If greed mattered less than the love of the game.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

I never said I wanted them to move. But you saying there 100% not moving because of the new investor is fake news and I call out people who spew fake news.

When did I say they were staying 100%? I gave my opinion based on the new prospective owner. And people who use the term 'fake news' to counter opinions they dislike should not be taken seriously.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

Even if the coyotes were moving what makes you think they would end up on the other side of the continent anyways?

The team is staying for up to 7 years we'll find out if they get that new arena in the meantime.

This is a thread about Quebec and it's desire to acquire an NHL team so it's reasonable to conclude if we're talking about a team relocating that the destination would be Quebec.

 

[gstommylee]

This is a thread about Quebec and it's desire to acquire an NHL team so it's reasonable to conclude if we're talking about a team relocating that the destination would be Quebec.

But what make you think the next team that relocates is actually going to quebec? That's the point I making the BOG gets to decide that and if there are other better options out there, they'll take the better option. Quebec aren't getting a team back just for the sake of getting a team back. It has to be the right situation. Unless some eastern conference team has to to relocate in the next decade, quebec isn't going to get a team anytime soon and the NHL still wants to keep it 16 west 16 east not 15 west 17 east.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

You’ve been arguing that it could for years. A metro area of around 2 million people split between 3 top-level leagues and a very well supported program in Marquette doesn’t enough of a market share for a NHL team. And in addition, a good portion of the market have pre-existing Chicago sports loyalties. It’s not a feasible option. It’s a great area for hockey, but so is Saskatchewan. Doesn’t mean there is enough to keep a successful hockey team going.

I'm not even arguing that it could. I'm just so tired of reading Milwaukee has to support the Packers but there is no possible way that anyone from Green Bay or Madison or Appleton or Kenosha or Sheboygan could ever support a Milwaukee team when I know it's 100% false and is never brought up by anyone else.

Oh, I think you can name at least one in the state of Wisconsin that doesn't follow this trend. I can name a few others in other sports. The only question then is how strongly cities follow the fortunes of their sports teams - and in the case of Milwaukee, I think it's pretty strong.

So one team. And maybe the Cowboys, Red Sox, Leafs and Canadiens. Great so we're now up to 5 out of 123 teams that we know will pretty much sell out no matter what.

You should have dragged in 2007-2009, because that kicked off the best stretch in Brewers history. The roughly 14 years before that? They were barely dog****. 5 winning seasons in the last 9? 8 in 12? 3 playoff appearances? For the Brewers, that's pretty good - and they've cracked 35,000 average attendance in a 41,000 seat stadium exactly thrice (3 times). Last year was on par with 2011, and attendance was 2K lower.

Wait, how is this a criticism? 3 playoff appearances in 12 years, no World Series appearances and they've been 12th, 9th, 9th, 11th, 7th, 11th, 16th, 8th, 13th, 16th, 10th, 10th and so far 9th in attendance.

But again, you're making my point here: Milwaukee doesn't sell out a stadium when the team is in one of its best stretches in team history, much less sell it out in one of the team's best years. If that's all the better it does for baseball, and if basketball doesn't do much better, why is hockey going to be any different?

Your point is f***ing garbage. Other than Minnesota, literally two teams have sold at 100% capacity in the past decade. The Phillies when they were winning division titles with ease and Boston. But somehow it's a strike against Milwaukee that they don't sell out?

Seriously? I was at a game last year, the Cardinals fans outnumbered the Brewers fans AIWEC. I've seen other games, it's 50/50. Perhaps you're counting any empty seats as Brewers fans?

So name the game. I would love to go watch highlights of this game and compare crowd noise and see people in the stands to see how many are in red.

Thanks for explaining how it all happens and partially illustrating my point. Right now though, I can still score free Brewers tickets for [select] games the rest of the year if I'm interested. Again, how would hockey be different from the Brewers and Bucks?

So again, tell me how it's such a bad thing to draw more fans for games that everybody struggles to sell? Like I said, these are weekday/night games and only cheap tickets can be used. They aren't giving away $100 seats on a Saturday here.

I agree with Mud. And let me just say those baseball attendance numbers are not that great and comparable to Montreal, which at 4 million people Admiral doesn't think should get a second crack at an MLB team.

Oh give me a damn break. The Brewers have beaten the Expos best ever attendance 13 of the last 14 years and the only year they didn't they were 6,037 off their attendance, an average of 75 more fans per game.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I never said I wanted them to move. But you saying there 100% not moving because of the new investor is fake news and I call out people who spew fake news.

Only if you call out people saying they *are* moving as *also* spewing fake news. "No move is imminent" is not fake news. "A move is imminent" is fake news.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I'm not even arguing that it could. I'm just so tired of reading Milwaukee has to support the Packers but there is no possible way that anyone from Green Bay or Madison or Appleton or Kenosha or Sheboygan could ever support a Milwaukee team when I know it's 100% false and is never brought up by anyone else.

I didn't say they wouldn't. No one is saying that those areas, save for Kenosha, wouldn't support a Milwaukee team. I don't think anyone here or anywhere reliable has every said that.

The entire Green Bay metro area is 300,000, Madison is somewhere above 500,000. Sheboygan is 50,000 people, that's semantics. Kenosha is the lone exception since it literally straddles the line for Chicago loyalties in all sports and is even included in the Chicago metro area rather than Milwaukee's. If you include all of those with metro Milwaukee's 1,500,000 metro population, it's still 2,000,000 in a fairly packed sports market relative to the size.

The NHL in Wisconsin would suffer from what killed the Whalers. The state is crunched between two larger markets on either side. The thought that people would cheer for a team that represents a state between two big areas that splits the state in many ways wouldn't be easy. Yes, the Whalers were bad, but the same logic was used. But, everyone in Fairfield County who commuted to NYC didn't follow in their decades of existence, and neither did the people north of the Munson-Nixon line who have cheered on all Boston sports for decades. Milwaukee wouldn't suffer nearly as bad as Hartford did, heck, they might even avoid that trend, but it's not nearly an extremely appealing NHL market.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I'm not even arguing that it could. I'm just so tired of reading Milwaukee has to support the Packers but there is no possible way that anyone from Green Bay or Madison or Appleton or Kenosha or Sheboygan could ever support a Milwaukee team when I know it's 100% false and is never brought up by anyone else.



So one team. And maybe the Cowboys, Red Sox, Leafs and Canadiens. Great so we're now up to 5 out of 123 teams that we know will pretty much sell out no matter what.



Wait, how is this a criticism? 3 playoff appearances in 12 years, no World Series appearances and they've been 12th, 9th, 9th, 11th, 7th, 11th, 16th, 8th, 13th, 16th, 10th, 10th and so far 9th in attendance.



Your point is ****ing garbage. Other than Minnesota, literally two teams have sold at 100% capacity in the past decade. The Phillies when they were winning division titles with ease and Boston. But somehow it's a strike against Milwaukee that they don't sell out?



So name the game. I would love to go watch highlights of this game and compare crowd noise and see people in the stands to see how many are in red.




So again, tell me how it's such a bad thing to draw more fans for games that everybody struggles to sell? Like I said, these are weekday/night games and only cheap tickets can be used. They aren't giving away $100 seats on a Saturday here.



Oh give me a damn break. The Brewers have beaten the Expos best ever attendance 13 of the last 14 years and the only year they didn't they were 6,037 off their attendance, an average of 75 more fans per game.

75 fans is really the difference? I'm glad Manfred feels otherwise. If Montreal wents up against Milwaukee for expansion, Montreal would win. And yes Milwaukee is too small for 3 plus the packers.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

I didn't say they wouldn't. No one is saying that those areas, save for Kenosha, wouldn't support a Milwaukee team. I don't think anyone here or anywhere reliable has every said that.

The entire Green Bay metro area is 300,000, Madison is somewhere above 500,000. Sheboygan is 50,000 people, that's semantics. Kenosha is the lone exception since it literally straddles the line for Chicago loyalties in all sports and is even included in the Chicago metro area rather than Milwaukee's. If you include all of those with metro Milwaukee's 1,500,000 metro population, it's still 2,000,000 in a fairly packed sports market relative to the size.

Milwaukee CSA - 2,050,000
Dane County - 540,000
Brown County - 243,000
Outagamie County - 187,000
Winnebago County - 171,000
Kenosha County - 169,000
Rock County - 163,000
Sheboygan County - 115,000
Fond du Lac County - 103,000

None in the metro area, all just outside, all draw fans. And give me a break with the Kenosha thing. Yes there are some Chicago fans from there, it's also 75 miles away from Chicago compared to 40 to Milwaukee.

From the facebook fans by zip code that the NY Times did.

The NHL in Wisconsin would suffer from what killed the Whalers. The state is crunched between two larger markets on either side.

Please tell me you're not talking about Minnesota. Dear God, you're actually talking about Minnesota the place that's 5 god damn hours away.

75 fans is really the difference? I'm glad Manfred feels otherwise. If Montreal wents up against Milwaukee for expansion, Montreal would win. And yes Milwaukee is too small for 3 plus the packers.

What are you even talking about?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Please tell me you're not talking about Minnesota. Dear God, you're actually talking about Minnesota the place that's 5 god damn hours away.

The Twin Cities are significantly closer to the entire western half of the state. While it is significantly less populated, even there's entire counties going deep into western Wisconsin that Minnesota fans for all sports, albeit somewhat less so for football. 5 hours away from Milwaukee yes, but not from nearly the entire western half of the state.

Milwaukee CSA - 2,050,000
Dane County - 540,000
Brown County - 243,000
Outagamie County - 187,000
Winnebago County - 171,000
Kenosha County - 169,000
Rock County - 163,000
Sheboygan County - 115,000
Fond du Lac County - 103,000

None in the metro area, all just outside, all draw fans. And give me a break with the Kenosha thing. Yes there are some Chicago fans from there, it's also 75 miles away from Chicago compared to 40 to Milwaukee.

From the facebook fans by zip code that the NY Times did.

Literally 50% or more of all sports from Kenosha are Chicago sports fans. That doesn't deserve giving a break, that's half of the population of a large and instate population center that cheers for teams in another market despite the presence of a team in that sport much closer to them. More and more people are commuting to Chicago from Kenosha, it's quickly becoming an extension of Chicagoland suburbia. And that line of Chicago fans extends all the out to Janesville and Rocky County.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

The Twin Cities are significantly closer to the entire western half of the state. While it is significantly less populated, even there's entire counties going deep into western Wisconsin that Minnesota fans for all sports, albeit somewhat less so for football. 5 hours away from Milwaukee yes, but not from nearly the entire western half of the state.

Nobody lives in Western Wisconsin and it's not nearly as pro Minnesota sports as you seem to think.

Literally 50% or more of all sports from Kenosha are Chicago sports fans. That doesn't deserve giving a break, that's half of the population of a large and instate population center that cheers for teams in another market despite the presence of a team in that sport much closer to them. More and more people are commuting to Chicago from Kenosha, it's quickly becoming an extension of Chicagoland suburbia. And that line of Chicago fans extends all the out to Janesville and Rocky County.

Even if it is 50% that's only 85,000 people, assuming every single person in the county is a sports fan. And no, they're not commuting to Chicago, it's mostly Lake County. It doesn't really tell us anything either. You could be from Milwaukee, be a Bucks, Brewers, Packers, Badgers fan, graduate from college, get a job in Waukegan and live in Kenosha. All of a sudden, you're commuting to the Chicago metro area.

(ACS) from 2012–2014, 33,000 residents lived and worked in the county, while 34,000 residents commuted outside of the county for employment. Of the Kenosha County residents commuting out of the county for work, 44.4 percent work in Lake County, 22.2 percent work in Racine County, and 19.8 percent commute to either Cook or Milwaukee counties. The remaining 13.6 percent work elsewhere.

https://research.upjohn.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1223&context=reports

And BS on the Rock County thing too. It was just recently added to the Madison CSA. If it as quickly becoming Chicago suburbia, that clearly wouldn't have happened.

 

[SkalbaniasGhost]

Source? I firmly believe it's staying at 32 for a long, long time.

Source?

[mod]

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Nobody lives in Western Wisconsin and it's not nearly as pro Minnesota sports as you seem to think.



Even if it is 50% that's only 85,000 people, assuming every single person in the county is a sports fan. And no, they're not commuting to Chicago, it's mostly Lake County. It doesn't really tell us anything either. You could be from Milwaukee, be a Bucks, Brewers, Packers, Badgers fan, graduate from college, get a job in Waukegan and live in Kenosha. All of a sudden, you're commuting to the Chicago metro area.

(ACS) from 2012–2014, 33,000 residents lived and worked in the county, while 34,000 residents commuted outside of the county for employment. Of the Kenosha County residents commuting out of the county for work, 44.4 percent work in Lake County, 22.2 percent work in Racine County, and 19.8 percent commute to either Cook or Milwaukee counties. The remaining 13.6 percent work elsewhere.

https://research.upjohn.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1223&context=reports

And BS on the Rock County thing too. It was just recently added to the Madison CSA. If it as quickly becoming Chicago suburbia, that clearly wouldn't have happened.

Or they could be from Chicagoland and move to Wisconsin because they don't want to live in Chicagoland and are willing to take the hike to work everyday. Kenosha is in the Chicago metro area despite it being 25 miles further away than Milwaukee. The metro areas are indicators of who is living where, not what they're doing for fan affiliations. You wouldn't look at the New Jersey areas of metro NYC and think that everyone is a fan of New Jersey sports teams.

Regardless of who they grow up as a fan of and what's happening, it's a market of around 3,000,000 people that already have NFL, MLB, and NBA teams, along with three very well supported collegiate athletic programs in Marquette, Wisconsin, and Wisconsin-Milwaukee. There's enough room for a well-supported AHL team, but a NHL team would be an unfeasible stretch.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I'm just going to pick on this part.

I'm not even arguing that it could. I'm just so tired of reading Milwaukee has to support the Packers but there is no possible way that anyone from Green Bay or Madison or Appleton or Kenosha or Sheboygan could ever support a Milwaukee team when I know it's 100% false and is never brought up by anyone else.

You do realize the difference between going to eight (8) games in an NFL schedule and 41 or 81 games on an NBA/MLB schedule, right? Let me explain it some, just in case.

The Packers play mostly on Sunday, with usually a Monday night game thrown in. Games on Sunday typically kick off at noon or 3:25pm; you probably drive near, spend the night somewhere, then make the drive up in the morning. Even factoring in traffic, you're back to Eau Claire or Madison by 11pm-midnight and worst-case, you're taking the next day off. If it's a night game, maybe you spend the night and drive back [and skip work] or maybe you drive back and it's 1am-2am before you get home. That's perhaps 3 times a year, maximum. For 8 games a year, you'll go through all of that. It's the same reason people will drive to Madison for Badgers football; they're Saturday games, they kick off generally at 11am unless the game gets kicked to night, you're home worst-case by 8pm unless you spend the night and drive back the next day. For 6-7 times a season, you'll do that.

The Bucks play 41 games, all across the week, mostly at 7pm. This past season, they had 6 games on Monday, 4 on Tuesday, 9 on Wednesday, 4 on Thursday, and the rest on the weekend (including 4 on Sunday). Even best-case, that was 21 games that fell on a weekday and weren't on a holiday or right next to a holiday. For a night game you're not back in Madison, Kenosha or Racine until after 11pm and Green Bay until after midnight. The suburbs? You're still talking closer to 11pm, depending on where. Yeah, you can conceivably make the other 20 without work implications, but are you doing that for all 20? Are you driving from Madison or Appleton or Green Bay or La Crosse for any of the other 21? You may love the Bucks but you're not making that drive for every game.

The Brewers? That's 81 games, again mostly at night and mostly during the week. Average attendance of low-30k says people aren't flocking in from around the state for every game. Again, you're not doing that every night from Madison or points farther away.

Add an NHL team to that? Best-case, you're getting the Bucks schedule above. Worst case, you're sliding games all over and both teams are playing more during the week, which leaves fewer chances for people to drive in and not have work implications.

I never said that Madison/Appleton/etc. wouldn't support an NHL team in Milwaukee. I'm saying you cannot count on those people to drive into Milwaukee 41 times a year for games. 10 per year? Perhaps, and it'll probably be weekend games. Who's going to all the games during the week? You act like there's this big mass of people from Grafton to Menomonee Falls to Oconomowoc to East Troy and Elkhorn to Burlington to Pleasant Prairie, all with untapped sports incomes, just waiting for a chance to go see hockey every chance they get; I'm telling you, some of that income has been tapped by the other pro sports and even considering switches in purchasing choices, I don't see 17,000 people night in and night out. Milwaukee can only handle so many sporting options. Adding the NHL will be a push and is going to negatively impact the Brewers and Bucks to the point that someone [or perhaps all of them] are going to suffer as a result.

I'm not trying to be harsh or nasty. I'm just saying it's reality. Milwaukee cannot handle 3 pro sports teams on top of the Packers, the Badgers, and the Golden Eagles [and then whatever the Panthers have] and have all of them stay viable. It's just not happening absent some massive influx of income and/or population.