GDT: Quarterfinal - May 23 - Finland vs Sweden

[Slap]

1. This is true of the entire peasantry of the Kingdom of Sweden
2. Likewise (except they spoke swedish, but they too were given "soldier names")
3. This is true of all who served in the Swedish army, including German and Scottish mercenaries
4. True of the entire peasantry
5. Same
6. Same (a surprising number of nobles actually spoke if not fluent at least rudimentary Finnish, not to mention a large portion of the clergy)
7. Same
8. The same happened in the Swedish territories in Livonia, Ingria, northern Germany, Skåne etc.
9. There was no distinct Finnish identity before the 18th century and the Anjala conspiracy and even then the "nationalist" tendencies were very weak until the mid-19th century under Russian rule.
10. True of all regions of the kingdom

There was no intentional oppression of Finns as a linguistic, cultural or social entity. In fact, the Swedish aristocracy and clergy promoted the Finnish language (unlike the Russians) as part of the ideals of the Reformation about religion in the people's own language The fate the people of Finland suffered from foreign occupation was due to geographic circumstance, not oppression by the swedish aristocracy. Not to mention, twice during the 18th century the kingdom was lead by a Finnish nobleman (or rather a Swedish nobleman from the region of Finland) Arvid Horn (1720-1738) and Gustaf Philip Creutz (1783-1785) as head of the Privy Council. Arvid Horn presiding during the Age of Liberty and in practice wielding more power than the King. Furthermore the coup d'état of Gustav III was planned to be undertaken with the support of the peasantry of Skåne and Finland rather than that of other regions or the nobility and the Gustavian Autocracy was supported in large part by the Finnish peasantry. Finland was an integrated part of Sweden and suffered no more or less than any other part except by geographic proximity to the kingdoms chief enemy: Russia. It is rather ahistoric to assign national identity to its people prior to the rise of nationalism in the 19th century and the people themselves probably saw themselves more as Tavastians, Savonians or Ostrobothnians or even Swedes than they did as Finns.



Not worthy of defending? What do you think the war was about apart from defending the eastern territories of the kingdom. After Poltava there was no army capable of defending Finland, ergo the occupation.

This is a nice piece if you want to learn some of the stuff they actually teach in Swedish schools. However none of it is true It's a cool story about Swedes washing away their ancestors sins.
"Finns were cavemen before we brought the christ"

The Finns had multiple kingdoms and an identity before the Swedish oppression.
There are archeological findings that predate anything that happened in Sweden. Sweden has a long history of xenophobia. Ranging from industrial scale sterilization of gypsies to skull measurements of Sami people just to prove how different we are. What Sweden is doing today is flat out hilarious considering the skeletons in their closets.

 

[Jaska]

Ithought I was reading a GDT, but seems I lost my way and ended up on a forum for history nerds... Which way to HFboards?

 

[Monaakko]

This is a nice piece if you want to learn some of the stuff they actually teach in Swedish schools. However none of it is true It's a cool story about Swedes washing away their ancestors sins.

1. I am educated in Finnish schools (well mostly, I did attend one year of school in Stockholm). I should probably also add that I have in fact studied this particular topic at university (while not my primary focus it did come up frequently during my studies)
2. None of my post is true? The fact that Finland was frequently occupied has nothing to do with its proximity to Russia, Arvid Horn was never president of the Privy Council? The Finnish peasantry never supported the Swedish monarch? (hint: they frequently were the power base of Swedish kings e.g. Charles IX, Gustav III)
3. Would you mind sharing how you know something that basically every historian (I'll admit there are exceptions, but they are few and far between) agrees with as fact? What primary sources have you used to reach this information? I'm honestly interested, because if you have some actual evidence of your claims that would be a remarkable historical discovery.
4. That's not to say that the Finnish peasantry didn't have it hard, but that is true of the peasantry everywhere. The german peasantry suffered through centuries of religious war and revolts, the Russian peasantry was for all practical purposes the property of the aristocracy etc. Up until the Carolean Autocracy the Finnish peasantry did quite well comparably, with the exception of the Cudgel War (which was a revolt in favour of the future king of Sweden, Charles IX), but when the power of the kingdom waned the Russian empire crept closer and occasionally occupied the country. Furthermore, during the 30 years war most soldiers were mercenaries and the fighting took place in Germany. During the 18th century the fighting was closer to home and conscription was more effective and less expensive than the mercenary armies of the past, taking a heavier toll on the peasantry of the entire kingdom.

Edit: that's not to say there are no sins in Swedens past, their role in the slave trade being perhaps the most prominent one, or in fact feudalism as a whole but that's not only Swedens cross to bear, in fact Swedens form of feudalism was probably one of the more benevolent forms given the historical context.

 

[llwyd]

The stuff Fleming and his likes pulled in Finland wouldn't have been accepted in western Sweden, no frigging way...

Well, compare with Estonians - they were sold and bought like livestock even in the 18th century - whereas we sent representatives to Riksdag and had bloody translation services.

 

[RageQuit77]

HFB should really have dedicated history boards. So much insight and wisdom is going to be wasted now. Depths of history still hold us tight.

1000 years of history (and few thousand more in pre-history) makes some bonds...

And still, those 'Finns' in Sagas were mostly Sami-people, not Finns in the word's contemporary meaning.

Oldest skates on the world by archeological evidence (found at geographical area of present day nation-state Finland) may (and probably do based on linguistic evidence and development schedule of Uralic languages) predate even the age of migration of Sami-branch of Finno-Ugric peoples.

First ice skates made in 3000BC

 

[Kamaya Painters]

People go on about all sorts of unnecessary things when the real reason is connected to simple sports psychology: Sweden were afraid of losing while Finland saw an opportunity to win.

Sweden had problems defensively through out the tournament. They started by giving away lots of pucks in their own zone and were continuously punished, little by little (even by the weaker sides) before eventually blowing up in the second period against Russia. They relied wholly on their individual offensive quality and almost scraped through against Finland as well based on it. Hörnqvist should've scored the empty netter for an example. Finland on the other hand is a proper team that has been together and worked on their concepts for almost two months.

The lack of knowing how to deal with the pressure of going for the third straight gold medal which in turn created unnecessary amounts of anxiety had a very negative impact on a team with considerably better players. This pressure and anxiety (internally and externally) is best reflected on Grönborg's in-game coaching and leadership (on and off the ice).

But..don't let the emotions steer your judgement and don't forget the margins were incredibly small.

Congratulations to Finland.

 

[mattihp]

Well, I guess we move in different circles then

I'd wager half of the swedish-born finnish kids with two finnish parents born during the late 70s through the late 80s don't even speak finnish. It takes a toll to hear all the smear about finnish language and casual xenophobia about finnish. There are groups that are worse off, but the results of finn-bashing is evident.

Don't get me started on swedish-born finns born in the 90s... Finnish classes are depleted due to lack of students in areas that have huge amounts of finnish second or third generation descendants.

 

[thestudent]

This discussion seems to have degraded into a Putin-like trolling about FIN-SWE politics instead of hockey.

(Soon we'll be discussing how Puma Swede is actually Finnish )

 

[RageQuit77]

National romantic construction and "Finnish identity" was built mainly by Swedish speaking Finnish elite who considered it wise and fitting to change their Swedish surnames to Neo-Finnish ones during the process.

The World's second oldest bourgeous "democratic" constitution was written for not-yet existing national identity and state by Georg Magnus Sprengtporten in 1786. Swedish speaking person, considered as traitor by both Swedish and Finnish historiography...

...

Finnish hockey project is still unfinished. Team Finland needs to beat Tre Kronor in best-on-best Olympic final. Only after that we can take it easy, at least what comes to The Game of Hockey.

 

[Chimpradamus]

I know this is heavy OT, but who cares, the game is over.

Have you ever heard of the great northern war? About 1/3 of Finlands population died and many were transported to Russia for slavery. This is all because Sweden didn't see those people worthy of defending. This is why Sweden is what it is today.
No national identity, no patriotism. It's nothing at all. I'm not gloating. My roots are in Sweden and I'm not happy about the situation.

Have I heard of it? Sure, I've read books about it (Peter Englund, "Ofredsår" and "Den oövervinnerlige"). The situation was exactly the same for the Swedish population, as it was for the Finnish one. Have you heard of feudalism and monoteism? The situation was not exactly unique. Have you heard of the "German" regions where the war was fought? 95% of all people in those regions died. Sorry, you don't win a gold medal in martyrdom.

At the start of the war the army was 95% Swedish and Finnish, at the end of the war it was 5%, the rest were allies and mercenaries. Everyone else were dead or wounded.

The Finnish martyrdom isn't working, they weren't special, just a regional part of a feudal machine. Finland wasn't "Finland", it was as much a core of Sweden as Småland or Västerbotten.

This is a nice piece if you want to learn some of the stuff they actually teach in Swedish schools. However none of it is true It's a cool story about Swedes washing away their ancestors sins.
"Finns were cavemen before we brought the christ"

I guess you wanted some christian crusade to bring wrath and death on the Finnish people instead, like happened to many areas and people within Europe who didn't become "proper christians".

The Finns had multiple kingdoms and an identity before the Swedish oppression.
There are archeological findings that predate anything that happened in Sweden. Sweden has a long history of xenophobia. Ranging from industrial scale sterilization of gypsies to skull measurements of Sami people just to prove how different we are. What Sweden is doing today is flat out hilarious considering the skeletons in their closets.

Not exactly unique, basically every region were polyteistic pagan societies. You're not talking about Swedish oppression, you're mistaking it for religious oppression. Monoteism tends to do that you know. "Long history of xenophobia", lol, no one trusted strangers for a long, long time. Some still don't, for reasons.

 

[FinPanda]

Well said.

I definitely are not complaining.

 

[RageQuit77]

The Finnish martyrdom isn't working, they weren't special, just a regional part of a feudal machine.

Right. Ok.

And The province of Finland was practically only place on earth under "European" dominance where the feudal system was never fully established to its full degree. Serfdom was never established in Finland.

Even lyrics of Jean Sibelius' Finlandia hymn declares that:

Finland, behold, thy daylight now is dawning
The threat of night has now been driven away
The skylark calls across the light of morning
The blue of heaven lets it have its way
And now the day the powers of night is scorning:
Thy daylight dawns, O Finland of ours!

Finland, arise, and raise towards the highest
Thy head now crowned with mighty memory
Finland, arise, for to the world thou criest
That thou hast thrown off thy slavery
Beneath oppression's yoke thou never liest
Thy morning's come, O Finland of ours!

Ironically, later Finnish nationalistic interpretation has nearly always mistook the meaning of these words, and not that surprisingly, just because of that alleged drive for "martyrdom".

I'm little bit concerned how well that martyr idea works against Ovechkin, Kucherov, Malkin...

 

[Nithoniniel]

People go on about all sorts of unnecessary things when the real reason is connected to simple sports psychology: Sweden were afraid of losing while Finland saw an opportunity to win.

I usually think people turn to sports psychology a bit too quickly but I absolutely agree with you. There was one situation, that is not coaching related, that I think epitomes what you are talking about. At one point, Hörnqvist got the puck up high in our zone. He had a lot of time as the Finnish defender hesitated halfway into a pinch. We had Nylander rushing in to support and Wennberg coming up the ice. It would have been a 2-on-1. But Hörnqvist didn't want the puck, he wasn't looking to make plays, so he bashed it into the boards and down for an icing as soon as he got it. That happened with 10 minutes left, and we had been turtling for a long time already at that point. When an experienced guy like him does something like that, you just know that it's something that permeates the entire team.

 

[illone84]

I usually think people turn to sports psychology a bit too quickly but I absolutely agree with you. There was one situation, that is not coaching related, that I think epitomes what you are talking about. At one point, Hörnqvist got the puck up high in our zone. He had a lot of time as the Finnish defender hesitated halfway into a pinch. We had Nylander rushing in to support and Wennberg coming up the ice. It would have been a 2-on-1. But c didn't want the puck, he wasn't looking to make plays, so he bashed it into the boards and down for an icing as soon as he got it. That happened with 10 minutes left, and we had been turtling for a long time already at that point. When an experienced guy like him does something like that, you just know that it's something that permeates the entire team.

Maybe Sweden didn't have much motivation to beat Finland because they knew they'd most likely face Russia anyways?

Good point about Hörnqvist. Actually really surprised he didn't score the empty netter with Lankinen out.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Maybe Sweden didn't have much motivation to beat Finland because they knew they'd most likely face Russia anyways?

Good point about Hörnqvist. Actually really surprised he didn't score the empty netter with Lankinen out.

Hehe. I actually told a friend of mine that it was hard to get excited about this game since whomever wins will have to face Russia. She was very excited about the prospect of beating Sweden though.

Ugh. I forgot about the empty net chance.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Right. Ok.

And The province of Finland was practically only place on earth under "European" dominance where the feudal system was never fully established to its full degree. Serfdom was never established in Finland...

Neither was it in Sweden, while regions like Jämtland and Härjedalen were similar to regions in Finland, in the sense that they were basically entirely left alone. No Swedish peasants were serfs in the same sense as Russian, French or English peasants. So no, Finland wasn't unique in that sense either, sorry. The Swedish aristocracy wasn't big and feared revolts, so they didn't dare to push the peasants too much.

 

[RageQuit77]

Neither was it in Sweden, while regions like Jämtland or Härjedalen were similar to regions Finland, in the sense that they were basically entirely left alone. No Swedish peasants were serfs in the same sense as Russian, French or English peasants. So no, Finland wasn't unique in that sense either, sorry.

Yes. Yes.

There are no nations named Jämtland or Härjedalen on the world's map today.

There is Finland (contrary to famous internet meme).

Its sad that unique Finnish colony of Värmland didn't survive to these days. Tho, The Crown didn't help in its survival. They weren't left alone.

(By the way: there was some attempts to establish Swedish slaver colony to a coast of Africa...)

But this all is OT. Arguments of mutual love can be thrown to both sides, to both directions.

 

[QnebO]

1. It is rather ahistoric to assign national identity to its people prior to the rise of nationalism in the 19th century and the people themselves probably saw themselves more as Tavastians, Savonians or Ostrobothnians or even Swedes than they did as Finns.

This is still very strong at least in Savo. I dont think its reach to say that still people are first Savonian, second Finnish, at least for some people who are Savonian. I think its the truth, specially at the deepest areas of Savo. Helsinki seems like distant place that many have no interest to move to and that has quite different culture actually, at least among the real long term Helsinki metropolitan area people.

I dont know at all if other historically strong regions still have strong feeling of identity, but Id say savonians do at least. Others might as well. I think there is also some kind of difference between us people of Eastern Finland and Western Finland in general in bigger scale, at least southeastern. I think even western Finns think so. I dont feel as much home in West finland which is more like Sweden lite to me, I like the east more Tampere is nice city in west tho that I have enjoyed. not that Helsinki and west aint good or anything. The difference aint THAT big.

Its good to be just Finland, even tho true bloodline / many generations Savonian and Helsinki people barely and some times even cant understand eachothers speaking Thats why we have the Agricola language, but if Helsinki / metropolitan person goes full Stadi or Savonian goes full Savo, its some times hopeless to communicate.

 

[RageQuit77]

@QnebO :

Be careful! Or there will be soon full scale frontier assault between Turku and Tampere...

 

[Slap]

Yes. Yes.

There are no nations named Jämtland or Härjedalen on the world's map today.

There is Finland (contrary to famous internet meme).

Its sad that unique Finnish colony of Värmland didn't survive to these days. Tho, The Crown didn't help in its survival. They weren't left alone.

(By the way: there was some attempts to establish Swedish slaver colony to a coast of Africa...)

But this all is OT. Arguments of mutual love can be thrown to both sides, to both directions.

This is a weird post. Österland survived and Helsinki is among the very few capitals that wasn't occupied in WW2

 

[Monaakko]

Yes. Yes.

There are no nations named Jämtland or Härjedalen on the world's map today.

There is Finland (contrary to famous internet meme).

Its sad that unique Finnish colony of Värmland didn't survive to these days. Tho, The Crown didn't help in its survival. They weren't left alone.

(By the way: there was some attempts to establish Swedish slaver colony to a coast of Africa...)

But this all is OT. Arguments of mutual love can be thrown to both sides, to both directions.

To be fair, serfdom never existed within what is today Norway either (unless you count the viking thralls, but I imagine, though I honestly do not know, a similar system existed within the tribal cultures of the finnic people too) and parts of what is today eastern Finland did have serfdom of the Russian variety (Old Finland, i.e. Käkisalmi and Viipuri counties, currently part of eastern Finland and western Russia) did have serfdom between 1721 and 1812

Edit: re: old Finland: the serfdom there was a de facto institution, not a de jure one. It was mostly a failure of Russian administration to enforce the promise of Peter I to respect the established laws of the region.

 

[RageQuit77]

This is a weird post. Österlund survived and Helsinki is among the very few capitals that wasn't occupied in WW2

Posts can be sometimes weird, not least when they are self-admittedly off-topic.

While true in military sense of word occupation, its highly questionable was that true in political sense (while we know what Clausewitz said about warfare as an extension of politics by other means). I don't want try rewrite history here now, but when international political science has term "Finlandization", you know how occupied Finns were several decades after the war...

Also, the location of where the Red Sauron's eye was placed at:

Hotelli Torni, Helsinki

@Monaakko:

Yep. I am desperately trying to dispatch myself out of these discussions, being both intrigued and fully self-aware how far from the topic we're already gone.

We must also remember that in reality, Finnish crofters (both Finnish and Swedish speaking) were often de facto serfs to their land owning barons and estate holders, regardless of what was written to the constitution. But thaaaaaaaat discussion is far OT too.

 

[Monaakko]

@Monaakko:

Yep. I am desperately trying to dispatch myself out of these discussions, being both intrigued and fully self-aware how far from the topic we're already gone.

We must also remember that in reality, Finnish crofters (both Finnish and Swedish speaking) were often de facto serfs to their land owning barons and estate holders, regardless of what was written to the constitution. But thaaaaaaaat discussion is far OT too.

Haha, yes nitpicking the circumstances and socioeconomic status of crofters, peasants, farmhands and "backstugusittare" (one of my favourite words in swedish, don't know any translation) might be going a bit far.

 

[RageQuit77]

Haha, yes nitpicking the circumstances and socioeconomic status of crofters, peasants, farmhands and "backstugusittare" (one of my favourite words in swedish, don't know any translation) might be going a bit far.

Yes, hilarious.

That is probably "Mäkitupalainen" in Finnish. Not sure.

Anyway. It always nice to kick dear Swedes to their arses (by proxy in this case). Its personal, my grandmother was one of those few hundred thousand Finns departing to Sweden to build "folkhemmet" during 60s and 70s, At first apparently to Volvo factory, and then to restaurant business (after acquiring fluent skills in Swedish). She lived most of her adult life in Göteborg, and died as Citizen of Sweden.

Some of my most vivid and earliest memories are from Liseberg amusement park and at the castle of Bohus.

 

[Lepardi]

I definitely are not complaining.

Me neither. Scouting for semifinal tickets here in Bratislava. I've noticed Swedes are selling.