GDT: Quarterfinal - May 23 - Finland vs Sweden

[Ukkosenjumala]

This thread is legendary

 

[RageQuit77]

What about thirty years war? It was basically Sweden vs HRE with money from France.

Yeah. That war was fought before Prussia (you're preferring) had any of its later prominence in European theatres. And sure, money, gold, diplomatic ties, land, wifes and all changed hands then just like they do today. At first participants of that war didn't necessarily even recognize the ideologic drift their sons were fighting for decades later.

You cannot possibly find a more complex chapter of war history at western hemisphere than The Thirty Years' war.

The Army of The Kingdom of Sweden was ultimately the model every other armies were modelled after.

 

[BL92]

From what I understand, Moscow was there for the taking for Germans, but Hitler pressured his command into conquering Ukraine first, for resources (resulting into some of the most brutal battles fought in history). This shut down the door on conquering Moscow, forever, as the winter came, and the Russians were able to reinforce their defenses.

Finland were actually pressured by the U.S., to not commit any further into attacking the Soviet Union. Finns were apparently quite close to occupying a rather defenseless Murmansk, which was largely responsible for handling the shipments from Americans and British.

The prospect of a declaration of war by the United States, pressured the Finnish military into aborting "Operation Silver Fox".

Bolstered by the new German arrivals, the Finnish III Corps launched its final offensive on 30 October. The Soviets had increased their defenses and had moved in additional units from other locations. Nevertheless, Finnish forces took some ground and encircled an entire Soviet regiment. Suddenly on 17 November the Finnish command ordered an end to the offensive despite positive feedback from the field commanders that further ground could be taken. The reason for this sudden change in Finnish behavior was the result of diplomatic pressure by the United States. Prior to the cancellation of the offensive, US diplomats warned Finland that a disruption of US deliveries to the Soviet Union would have serious consequences for Finland. Therefore, Finland became no longer interested in spearheading the offensive. With the Finnish refusal to be involved in the offensive, Arctic Fox came to an end in November and both sides dug in at their current positions.[36][37]

It's another one of those forgotten tidbits in history. What if the Finns had conquered Murmansk? You just never know what would've happened. The Finns also held off from completely encircling St. Petersburg, which allowed the city to last through a brutal siege by the Nazis (alongside, of course, the legendary toughness of Russian citizens).

My great-grandfather fought in the Finnish III Corps (JR53) and I was under the impression that Red Army's resistance near Louhi was quite fierce. Capturing Murmansk and cutting the railway would've been a road paved with blood. The German troops were also far too inexperienced to be fighting in such landscape.

 

[aphyro]

Yeah. That war was fought before Prussia (you're preferring) had any of its later prominence in European theatres. And sure, money, gold, diplomatic ties, land, wifes and all changed hands then just like they do today. At first participants of that war didn't necessarily even recognize the ideologic drift their sons were fighting for decades later.

You cannot possibly find a more complex chapter of war history at western hemisphere than The Thirty Years' war.

The Army of The Kingdom of Sweden was ultimately the model every other armies were modelled after.

If you are going to use that you have to take it in considiration that the Sweds during that time took inspirations from the Dutch which fought the 80 years war against the strongest power on earth Spain alone at the time.

 

[BullLund]

Thank you for that never heard about that Murmansk you learn something new everyday!

Well about that late atk on Moscow was first Italys dumb atk on Greece which prolonged the atk on SU.

And if Finland had taken Murmansk I have no idea if SU would have survived without the lend leas.

If Finland had committed into the encirclement of St. Petersburg as well as the attack on Murmansk, it would have certainly made things much more difficult for the Soviets (not that they weren't already difficult).

On hindsight I'm glad that they didn't because it would've violated Finland's code on total defense. Outside of fanatics, most Finnish people weren't fighting to conquer land, but to defend their borders.

I believe that the Russians understood this, and there wasn't that much ill-will directed towards the Finns by the Soviets. It's actually surprising how easily the Finns and Russians have gotten along since, not that there hasn't been tense situations, but nothing that has spilled over, ever again.

My great-grandfather fought in the Finnish III Corps (JR53) and I was under the impression that Red Army's resistance near Louhi was quite fierce. Capturing Murmansk and cutting the railway would've been a road paved with blood. The German troops were also far too inexperienced to be fighting in such landscape.

True. Nobody ever took anything "easy" from the Russians. But it is believed that it would've been possible for the Finns, had they pushed for it, even if they only numbered around 5000 men. Finns had been successful in encircling and wiping out whole divisions before. But with U.S. diplomatic pressure, along with the prospect of losing unnecessary lives (in an offensive strategy), the decision was made to hold ground rather than conquer any further ground.

 

[aphyro]

If Finland had committed into the encirclement of St. Petersburg as well as the attack on Murmansk, it would have certainly made things much more difficult for the Soviets (not that they weren't already difficult).

On hindsight I'm glad that they didn't because it would've violated Finland's code on total defense. Outside of fanatics, most Finnish people weren't fighting to conquer land, but to defend their borders.

I believe that the Russians understood this, and there wasn't that much ill-will directed towards the Finns by the Soviets. It's actually surprising how easily the Finns and Russians have gotten along since, not that there hasn't been tense situations, but nothing that has spilled over, ever again.



True. Nobody ever took anything "easy" from the Russians. But it is believed that it would've been possible for the Finns, had they pushed for it, even if they only numbered around 5000 men. Finns had been successful in encircling and wiping out whole divisions before. But with U.S. diplomatic pressure, along with the prospect of losing unnecessary lives (in an offensive strategy), the decision was made to hold ground rather than conquer any further ground.

Yeah I've heard that aswell and yeah if so i Think SU would have colpased. But the war would have take much longer to end aswell.

I've heard rumorse about that the SU had to remove people from the Kola peninsual and send them south and take people from the south SU to fight the finns because they couldent motivate the russians that was living there to atk Finland or the Finnish people of whom they had been neighbour with for decades without any problem.

 

[RageQuit77]

If you are going to use that you have to take it in considiration that the Sweds during that time took inspirations from the Dutch which fought the 80 years war against the strongest power on earth Spain alone at the time.

There was clearly some consequences when doing so. What is exactly the thing we disagree? I admit that I'm not very familiar with the Dutch military history (must be ugly, granted).

The model of Modern army organisation was still spread all around by the example of Swedish army, not Dutch. It wasn't easily applicable in countries of most rigid feudal systems (Dutch is counter example of that).

 

[Jussi]

HFB should really have dedicated history boards. So much insight and wisdom is going to be wasted now. Depths of history still hold us tight.

1000 years of history (and few thousand more in pre-history) makes some bonds...

And still, those 'Finns' in Sagas were mostly Sami-people, not Finns in the word's contemporary meaning.

Oldest skates on the world by archeological evidence (found at geographical area of present day nation-state Finland) may (and probably do based on linguistic evidence and development schedule of Uralic languages) predate even the age of migration of Sami-branch of Finno-Ugric peoples.

First ice skates made in 3000BC

Well there used to a Political Discussion board where people discussed history among other things. But then one poster who was wrong constantly about everything, complained to an admin about being cyberbullied and the board was shutdown.

 

[aphyro]

There was clearly some consequences when doing so. What is exactly the thing we disagree? I admit that I'm not very familiar with the Dutch military history (must be ugly, granted).

The model of Modern army organisation was still spread all around by the example of Swedish army, not Dutch. It wasn't easily applicable in countries of most rigid feudal systems (Dutch is counter example of that).

(De under hans tid ännu gällande grundsatserna för truppernas utrustning och uppställning till strid samt själva stridssättet fann han alltför tunga och oviga, varför han upptog de av prins Morits av Oranien under nederländska frihetskriget införda förbättringarna och fulländade dem så, att en helt ny krigskonst därigenom kan anses ha tillkommit.)

No idea i don't think we disagree really.. I'm just a history nerd.

Haha damn i feel dumb now I'm usually the one that braging about Swedish history.

 

[BullLund]

Yeah I've heard that aswell and yeah if so i Think SU would have colpased. But the war would have take much longer to end aswell.

I've heard rumorse about that the SU had to remove people from the Kola peninsual and send them south and take people from the south SU to fight the finns because they couldent motivate the russians that was living there to atk Finland or the Finnish people of whom they had been neighbour with for decades without any problem.

It is true, the people who lived in the North also knew how terrible it would be to fight a war in Northern climate, in the cold, with very little to eat. So a lot of the troops that Soviets used initially, were from Southern regions. The propaganda had told them that they would be received as saviours by the workers, and that they would walk into Helsinki, the capital of Finland, in little time.

They were completely unprepared for what they were getting into, and many died from frost-bite and starvation.

Finns at that time were largely farmers and hunters, with towns and cities being rather small, and most men were accustomed to shooting a rifle, and were very well acclimated to outdoors activities. They knew fully well what they would have to do in order to survive the winter.

The one time that Finland faced all of Soviet military might, was when they pushed in the latter stages of WW2. But even then, Finns were miraculously able to hold them off, despite the initial panic and retreat.

 

[Jussi]

This thread is legendary

I dare say, historic. May be even generational.

 

[aphyro]

It is true, the people who lived in the North also knew how terrible it would be to fight a war in Northern climate, in the cold, with very little to eat. So a lot of the troops that Soviets used initially, were from Southern regions. The propaganda had told them that they would be received as saviours by the workers, and that they would walk into Helsinki, the capital of Finland, in little time.

They were completely unprepared for what they were getting into, and many died from frost-bite and starvation.

Finns at that time were largely farmers and hunters, with towns and cities being rather small, and most men were accustomed to shooting a rifle, and were very well acclimated to outdoors activities. They knew fully well what they would have to do in order to survive the winter.

The one time that Finland faced all of Soviet military might, was when they pushed in the latter stages of WW2. But even then, Finns were miraculously able to hold them off, despite the initial panic and retreat.

Thank you! For sharing I love this learn more about history.

Yeah pretty ironic how the Finnish beated the Russian in their own "game" so to speak winter war.

 

[RageQuit77]

Well there used to a Political Discussion board where people discussed history among other things. But then one poster who was wrong constantly about everything, complained to an admin about being cyberbullied and the board was shutdown.

I see.

Luckily they sold those 44 surplus Brewster Buffalo F2A-1 B239-E fighter airframes to Finland. Failure at Midway was minor issue during the purchase. The map of Nordic countries would likely look very different, only if considering the worth of that delivery of scrap metal.

You're right, its impossible to have 'Political threads' without history, and history threads without going political. If we want speak international political history at these boards, it will be ruined only because of a history curriculum of US, even if outright ignoring all other possible conflicts that may arise.

Between Sweden and Finland its all is relatively tidy.

 

[Chimpradamus]

On a funnier note, you know what adults did to have fun during this era with no Internet, radio or television, nor the ability to read? They played games with eachother, just like kids. The only difference was, they played more adult games. One popular game played by adults was apparently called "Vill du ha däng Gunnar?" (loosely translated "You want a beating Gunnar?"). I can only imagine how that game was formed and performed. I guess some hard liquour was involved.

 

[BullLund]

Thank you! For sharing I love this learn more about history.

Yeah pretty ironic how the Finnish beated the Russian in their own "game" so to speak winter war.

Well, I think Russians themselves were as good at playing that game as the Finns were. But not the troops that were used. For example, the locally famous "Battle of Raate Road" was fought against a troop of Ukrainians, who came from lands that don't really have such winters, thus they weren't prepared to deal with the frost and lack of resources.

It could be said that Finland's wars against Soviets, wasn't really fought against Russians for the most part, but rather troops that were brought from other regions. The push in the end stages of the Continuation War, was a very serious one though, and consisted of some of Soviets' best elements.

It is a wonder that the Finns were able to halt their advance because that same army, with the same strategies, conquered half of Europe. Of course, Finland wasn't a main objective by any means, but that attack was still a very significant investment on the Soviets' part, said to have been the largest battle in North Europe's history.

 

[RorschachWJK]

One of the better books in English about the Winter War between Finland and Soviet Union is 'A Frozen Hell' by William R. Trotter. He sympathizes Finns but avoids being overly subjective.

 

[RorschachWJK]

Well, I think Russians themselves were as good at playing that game as the Finns were. But not the troops that were used. For example, the locally famous "Battle of Raate Road" was fought against a troop of Ukrainians, who came from lands that don't really have such winters, thus they weren't prepared to deal with the frost and lack of resources.

It could be said that Finland's wars against Soviets, wasn't really fought against Russians for the most part, but rather troops that were brought from other regions. The push in the end stages of the Continuation War, was a very serious one though, and consisted of some of Soviets' best elements.

It is a wonder that the Finns were able to halt their advance because that same army, with the same strategies, conquered half of Europe. Of course, Finland wasn't a main objective by any means, but that attack was still a very significant investment on the Soviets' part, said to have been the largest battle in North Europe's history.

Yes, I believe Tali-Ihantala is the biggest battle ever in northern Europe. Do not watch the movie about it, though. It is terrible

 

[RageQuit77]

I love it how We use this thread for collectively adjust to oncoming game against Team Russia. So real.

The Red Machine ultimately taught us to play hockey. We remember that.

 

[Jussi]

 

[aphyro]

Well, I think Russians themselves were as good at playing that game as the Finns were. But not the troops that were used. For example, the locally famous "Battle of Raate Road" was fought against a troop of Ukrainians, who came from lands that don't really have such winters, thus they weren't prepared to deal with the frost and lack of resources.

It could be said that Finland's wars against Soviets, wasn't really fought against Russians for the most part, but rather troops that were brought from other regions. The push in the end stages of the Continuation War, was a very serious one though, and consisted of some of Soviets' best elements.

It is a wonder that the Finns were able to halt their advance because that same army, with the same strategies, conquered half of Europe. Of course, Finland wasn't a main objective by any means, but that attack was still a very significant investment on the Soviets' part, said to have been the largest battle in North Europe's history.

Fair enough! but still the overwhelming odds the finnish soldiers were facing with bombers,fighters and tanks... and over 1million soldiers, trying to take Finland should have been enough so we gotta give credits to the soldiers who fought for the Nordic countries freedom when the other countries just were looking the otherway.

Yeah but the continue war had different settings i mean Finland had lost some key points already to the Soviet Union after the winter war... and Germany was about getting defeated.


This Speech still gives me the goose bumps

 

[RageQuit77]

Epilogue:

Raising the Flag on the Three-Country Cairn - Wikipedia

After the 3rd war of Finland during WWII

 

[jj cale]

On a funnier note, you know what adults did to have fun during this era with no Internet, radio or television, nor the ability to read? They played games with eachother, just like kids. The only difference was, they played more adult games. One popular game played by adults was apparently called "Vill du ha däng Gunnar?" (loosely translated "You want a beating Gunnar?"). I can only imagine how that game was formed and performed. I guess some hard liquour was involved.

My middle name is Gunnar, I wonder if I would have been in any danger had I been there at these games?

 

[RageQuit77]

My middle name is Gunnar, I wonder if I would have been in any danger had I been there at these games?

No, no, no. At least you as an individual would be saved.

The first real, and the most impactful immigration crisis in Sweden was due Finnish immigrants of '60-70s (with all their stereotypic Finnish characteristics). Some Gunnars may've had get beaten in the process, but so was some Mattis, Jormas, Kaukos, and Annelis, Paulas, and Marias. And no doubt, there was some Gunnar among the kicked immigrants too.

We were the pariahs, but we integrated to the system. Many Mattis and Paulas sent money to upkeep their families in Finland, and in tens of thousands of cases, their families followed after them.

Sweden had no war reparations to pay, unlike Finland had. And unlike any other country in the world, Finns also paid them. All of them. The socio-economic result was the nescessity 'to send' surpluss population to Sweden. Win-Win.

Gunnars are highly valued resource in Finland, Romani people participated the war just like average Finn. They were usually horsemen. (no pun intended).

 

[jj cale]

No, no, no. At least you as an individual would be saved.

The first real, and the most impactful immigration crisis in Sweden was due Finnish immigrants of '60-70s (with all their stereotypic Finnish characteristics). Some Gunnars may've had get beaten in the process, but so was some Mattis, Jormas, Kaukos, and Annelis, Paulas, and Marias. And no doubt, there was some Gunnar among the kicked immigrants too.

We were the pariahs, but we integrated to the system. Many Mattis and Paulas sent money to upkeep their families in Finland, and in tens of thousands of cases, their families followed after them.

Sweden had no war reparations to pay, unlike Finland had. And unlike any other country in the world, Finns also paid them. All of them. The socio-economic result was the nescessity 'to send' surpluss population to Sweden. Win-Win.

Gunnars are highly valued resource in Finland, Romani people participated the war just like average Finn. They were usually horsemen. (no pun intended).

Well this is comforting to know!!

 

[IceHockeyDude]

You guys should exchange your contact informations to have further discussions about the history of these two nations. I don't think this quarter final thread on Hfboards is the best way to do it.