Post-Game Talk: Puck In Da Net: Habs, Fleury win in bizarre 6-5 OT/SO game

[void]

Chantal @habsgirl4life:
Subban: "When I get benched I'll never talk back, I'll just take it. That's your responsibility as a player whether you agree with it or not."

Chantal @habsgirl4life:
#Habs Subban: "You want the opportunity to make up for whatever mistake you made but that's out of my control."

Chantal @habsgirl4life:
How would you describe your relationship with Michel Therrien? #Habs Subban: "Player - Coach."

 

[Price is Wright]

Following the Habs must be such a bummer for some of you guys, I can't even imagine.

I used to be a die hard Islanders fan, from their inception through the Cups to the Lafontaine/Turgeon eras. In the 90s it became too much of a headache to follow them. I stopped watching them and bounced around. It was pretty relaxing to just follow favourite players instead of a favourite team. I've been starting to adopt the Habs because I like the guys they keep bringing up like Gallagher and Galchenyuk but if they got traded or the team was truly horrible, I'd just go back to no team.

Some people think you gotta be loyal to your team no matter what, like it's stating your sexuality or something. It isn't. It's just hockey.

 

[JAVO16]

But Grant has criticized MT, pretty heavily.

This whole appeal to authority is a bad argument.

This isn't an appeal to authority argument. I'm just saying that he's known in the business. How would it look if you constantly commented (be it criticism or praise) about some other guy in your domain or connected to your domain on a message board ? Everything said here could be used against you. I'm just saying that I don't think the fanboy accusation here about Grant are applicable.

 

[Habsawce]

Chantal @habsgirl4life:
Subban: "When I get benched I'll never talk back, I'll just take it. That's your responsibility as a player whether you agree with it or not."

Chantal @habsgirl4life:
#Habs Subban: "You want the opportunity to make up for whatever mistake you made but that's out of my control."

Chantal @habsgirl4life:
How would you describe your relationship with Michel Therrien? #Habs Subban: "Player - Coach."

That's about as close as you'll ever get to Subban saying "I'm tired of this clown" because every other comment he's ever made about Therrien has been kissing his bum

 

[Kriss E]

It's the effort getting back that I had a problem with.

Wasn'T PK at the end of like a 2min PP shift. He doesn't take a long shift because he's selfish and doesn't want to change, he does it because he has the green light from the coach to do it. PK wasn't going to catch up to Sutter, he was dead tired. Gorges and DD were chasing back, so even if there was a rebound, PK wasn't getting to it first.

Also it's Pejorative Slured to still be benching PK at this point. We're not talking about a rookie or sophomore. Not to mention, you bench him until there's a PP, we score, and then he is benched again while we put Emelin-Murray-Tinordi in OT. Sure...Makes total sense.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I couldn't help but notice you stopped your list short of listing Vigneault and Julien, two other idiots who "had to be fired" when they were here.

I went back four coaches... I figured that was far enough. Did you want me to talk about Tremblay too?

As for Vigneault, I liked him. Ditto with Demers... But the fact is that we haven't had good coaching in a long time. Vigneault and Julien could only dream of having a roster like this. Their clubs were pitiful.

It's not a hive mentality. I'm not going to take responsibility for somebody who felt Vigneault was bad. That's up to them. But what I see right now is a roster that should be doing better than it is. I see great young players being "coached" into the ground.

Our coach is an idiot. This whole crap about "he knows more about hockey than you do" is pure crap. Gainey knows more about hockey than any of us do but he still made idiotic moves that deserved criticism. And it's very clear (should be to anyone) that we have a very bad coach on our hands.

Honestly, it doesn't matter. I don't even care. We could reanimate the corpses of Toe Blake and Pat Burns and give them Scotty Bowman as an assistant and I would still be reading the exact same garbage every day, just with the names switched around. I know because I've been reading it since even before I joined this board 8 years ago. It's so boring. Following the Habs must be such a bummer for some of you guys, I can't even imagine.

If they were coaching our team we wouldn't be at the bottom of the league in scoring. We wouldn't be getting outplayed every night...

Sorry you have to read this stuff, but you can blame management for hiring mostly ****** coaches over the years.

 

[habitue*]

That's about as close as you'll ever get to Subban saying "I'm tired of this clown" because every other comment he's ever made about Therrien has been kissing his bum

What kind of comments do you think he would made ?

What kind of comments do you think any player would make about his coach, anyway ?

The line between "" are yours, and yours only.

 

[habitue*]

I went back four coaches... I figured that was far enough. Did you want me to talk about Tremblay too?

As for Vigneault, I liked him. Ditto with Demers... But the fact is that we haven't had good coaching in a long time. Vigneault and Julien could only dream of having a roster like this. Their clubs were pitiful.

It's not a hive mentality. I'm not going to take responsibility for somebody who felt Vigneault was bad. That's up to them. But what I see right now is a roster that should be doing better than it is. I see great young players being "coached" into the ground.

Our coach is an idiot. This whole crap about "he knows more about hockey than you do" is pure crap. Gainey knows more about hockey than any of us do but he still made idiotic moves that deserved criticism. And it's very clear (should be to anyone) that we have a very bad coach on our hands.

If they were coaching our team we wouldn't be at the bottom of the league in scoring. We wouldn't be getting outplayed every night...

Sorry you have to read this stuff, but you can blame management for hiring mostly ****** coaches over the years.

No one of them would do better with this line up. Blake,Bowman and Burns would make depressions yelling at this bunch. They would not be able to handle a team of 20 young players of nowadays.

Besides 4 or 5 top notch headcoaches, you could put the names of the next 25 in the hat - including Therrien -. And pick randomly. They would get the same results from the team we have.

 

[Price is Wright]

I'm sure Pat Burns would love to not have to babysit Corson, Lemieux and Chelios.

 

[Habs Icing]

So it was okay for you to call Gauthier and Gainey incompetent for all those years, but when people turn around and do the same for Therrien, it's the posters that are incompetent.

I see.

Gainey & Gauthier were here for about 9 years I think. I started complaining about them after 6-7 years - where they accumulated many years of failure in the standings and many foolish trades, signings.

Maybe you should wait for at least one year of failure in the standings.

 

[Bill McNeal]

A bit of context: Right after he gave the 'player-coach' response, he said not many people are going to have a similar role to what his father has in his life.

Which, besides Subban stating the obvious, highlights further the ridiculousness of the idea that Bergevin/Therrien have molded him into somebody he wasn't before they came along.

 

[Kimota]

Why do we need a 1st line center? We're winning.
Why do we need to shore up the defense. We're winning. Hand Markov a blank check.
Why do we need to fix the PP? We're winning.
Why do we need to improve our anemic 5 on 5 production? We're winning!!!
Why do we need to trade Bourque? We're winning!!!
Why should Gorges step his game up? We're winning!!!

These same people will be unbearable when they're crying in threads about the Habs getting blown out in the 1st round. "but but but we were so good in the regular season...how were we so easily neutralized and outcoached?

How many times in the last 10 years were we winning in the regular season all to get destroyed in the playoffs? Why do you think that is? Because your problems get magnified in the playoffs. Habs fans asleep at the wheel again.

What are you trying to prove by this constant whining?

 

[Doc McKenna]

Ignored this post cuz we're winning.

REGRESSION FTW

I put people this ignorant on my ignore list, it makes HF almost bearable. Then you won't have to bother telling him he is on ignore

 

[sandysan]

How many times would you say PK coughed up the puck at the blue line on the PP leading to a breakaway goal this year? Or heck, just a breakaway (no goal). How many?

So because he is somewhat error free, he gets to make a mistake then two more in rapid succession ?

I dont like the long ass shift, the turnover is a mental mistake but 1) a weak ass hook and 2) not even trying to chase him are not questions of talent. if he had pulled down Sutter I would say that's okay, but he didnt.

I mistake I can live with but one mistake followed in rapid succession by two more has to be addressed no ?

and his penchant for diving ( like in Detroit) is getting a little hard to swallow. he's not playing well smart or hard, so let him sit.

 

[SuperUnknown]

So when everyone complained about Martin and Gauthier they were wrong because they were just message board posters?

You can complain about results (or lack of)... Second guessing every move a coach makes is bull though, especially since the vast majority of coaches from Junior up knows more than every poster on here.

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

... I see great young players being "coached" into the ground.

Our coach is an idiot. ...

If they were coaching our team we wouldn't be at the bottom of the league in scoring. We wouldn't be getting outplayed every night...
.

I support this point, and I've said it myself.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1541735
He is an idiot. There is no way to sugar-coat it.

He got his chance originally because he is French-speaking, was perceived to have paid his dues in the lower leagues and is a large man with a physical presence, which led to the perception that he is a motivator. He subsequently got a number of opportunities, including the Penguins and this one, because he had prior NHL experience, which compounds the initial mistake. However, there is no substitute for intelligence, and he will never be confused with a tactician. Nor will he ever be associated with anything resembling critical thinking.

While it's true that there are very few coaches that actually think the game, if we were to try to quantify their mental capacities and plot the values on an axis, MT would still end up on the pole coinciding with the most intellectually challenged.

That, to me is the number 1 reason that is at the root of any other shortcoming. At this point, MB is not looking stellar for having picked him.

It is no less true today.

Edit: I will give him credit that he is getting results. However a good coach is not just someone who wins, but someone who can manage team resources with a view to the long term, as well as win now. Look at the British Premier League in soccer, and coaches who are acknowledged as masters of bringing along and motivating young players, like Arsène Wenger now, and Alex Ferguson until he retired. MT is the opposite of such a coach; he gets bailed out by a newly focused Carey Price, meanwhile he is sucking the motivation and goodwill out of guys like Subban and Eller.

 

[Kriss E]

So because he is somewhat error free, he gets to make a mistake then two more in rapid succession ?

I dont like the long ass shift, the turnover is a mental mistake but 1) a weak ass hook and 2) not even trying to chase him are not questions of talent. if he had pulled down Sutter I would say that's okay, but he didnt.

I mistake I can live with but one mistake followed in rapid succession by two more has to be addressed no ?

and his penchant for diving ( like in Detroit) is getting a little hard to swallow. he's not playing well smart or hard, so let him sit.

No. My point is that if you can't even recall the last time PK created a turnover that lead to a breakaway goal (or even just a breakaway) despite having seen him play for over 1500 minutes this year, then maybe it's not the end of the world.
Does this mean he didn't make a mistake or play badly? Of course not. PK is playing like MAB half the time he's on the ice. It's pretty disturbing.
The guy has regressed so much it's scary. The guy seems confused every time he touches the puck which is pretty nuts seeing how it's so natural for him to carry it.
It seems he keeps second guessing his options because he's scared of making a mistake. He's playing stressed, why? Because he knows, he makes a costly turnover and it will lead to him being benched, or publicly bashed, and God knows what Therrien says behind closed doors but based on 24CH, I doubt it's a nice little pep talk.

As for him not playing hard? I disagree. The kid gives it his all every game. Not playing well or smart, I agree. Then again, most of our players aren't doing well.

 

[WeThreeKings]

No. My point is that if you can't even recall the last time PK created a turnover that lead to a breakaway goal (or even just a breakaway) despite having seen him play for over 1500 minutes this year, then maybe it's not the end of the world.
Does this mean he didn't make a mistake or play badly? Of course not. PK is playing like MAB half the time he's on the ice. It's pretty disturbing.
The guy has regressed so much it's scary. The guy seems confused every time he touches the puck which is pretty nuts seeing how it's so natural for him to carry it.
It seems he keeps second guessing his options because he's scared of making a mistake. He's playing stressed, why? Because he knows, he makes a costly turnover and it will lead to him being benched, or publicly bashed, and God knows what Therrien says behind closed doors but based on 24CH, I doubt it's a nice little pep talk.

As for him not playing hard? I disagree. The kid gives it his all every game. Not playing well or smart, I agree. Then again, most of our players aren't doing well.

It's really stupid how they handle him.

He's your Norris trophy, #1 defenseman. He made a bad play at the blueline that caused a goal. He comes to the bench and you don't have to do anything but pat him on the back, give him a rest, and throw him back on the ice the very next time his number is supposed to be called.

If you don't like a number of things in his game, meet with him in the morning and schedule in a video session, go over the bullet points of the mistakes and the great plays he made. Contrast the two and let him see how he can think the game vs. how the negative aspects to his game sometimes come out. Give him visual recognition of what he does when he's successful vs. when he's not successful.

You can't keep sitting him and throwing him in the video room between every period and bash him ad nauseum about one mistake. Players make a mistake every time they are on the ice, sometimes they lead to chances, to goals, and sometimes they go nowhere but it does not change that they are mental errors.

Point is, you're trying to coach the guy to make him a better player.. not just drag him through the mud every time he makes an error and give him 0 chance of redemption. You also, at some point, have to accept the player he is. For every 10 rushes he does that creates a chance for his team, there will be one that creates a chance for the other team. Ottawa understands that with Karlsson but yet they don't bench him for the remainder of the game. It's not like Karlsson is incapable of acknowledging a mistake he's made.

No one feels worse than Subban after he's made a costly mistake. You can see his reaction on the bench to prove it. Let your thoroughbred defenseman realize you HAVE his back.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

What are you trying to prove by this constant whining?

I'll let you know when the playoffs end.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No one of them would do better with this line up. Blake,Bowman and Burns would make depressions yelling at this bunch. They would not be able to handle a team of 20 young players of nowadays.

Besides 4 or 5 top notch headcoaches, you could put the names of the next 25 in the hat - including Therrien -. And pick randomly. They would get the same results from the team we have.

They certainly would. Not even a question that they would.

How could they do any worse? MT doesn't do jack **** but sit and wait for the goalies to bail him out. Any coach could do this. There's NO way those coaches would be guiding us to be the 29th best team in scoring.

 

[groovejuice]

It's really stupid how they handle him.

He's your Norris trophy, #1 defenseman. He made a bad play at the blueline that caused a goal. He comes to the bench and you don't have to do anything but pat him on the back, give him a rest, and throw him back on the ice the very next time his number is supposed to be called.

If you don't like a number of things in his game, meet with him in the morning and schedule in a video session, go over the bullet points of the mistakes and the great plays he made. Contrast the two and let him see how he can think the game vs. how the negative aspects to his game sometimes come out. Give him visual recognition of what he does when he's successful vs. when he's not successful.

You can't keep sitting him and throwing him in the video room between every period and bash him ad nauseum about one mistake. Players make a mistake every time they are on the ice, sometimes they lead to chances, to goals, and sometimes they go nowhere but it does not change that they are mental errors.

Point is, you're trying to coach the guy to make him a better player.. not just drag him through the mud every time he makes an error and give him 0 chance of redemption. You also, at some point, have to accept the player he is. For every 10 rushes he does that creates a chance for his team, there will be one that creates a chance for the other team. Ottawa understands that with Karlsson but yet they don't bench him for the remainder of the game. It's not like Karlsson is incapable of acknowledging a mistake he's made.

No one feels worse than Subban after he's made a costly mistake. You can see his reaction on the bench to prove it. Let your thoroughbred defenseman realize you HAVE his back.

Norris guy gets no rispek.

 

[sandysan]

It's really stupid how they handle him.

He's your Norris trophy, #1 defenseman. He made a bad play at the blueline that caused a goal. He comes to the bench and you don't have to do anything but pat him on the back, give him a rest, and throw him back on the ice the very next time his number is supposed to be called.

If you don't like a number of things in his game, meet with him in the morning and schedule in a video session, go over the bullet points of the mistakes and the great plays he made. Contrast the two and let him see how he can think the game vs. how the negative aspects to his game sometimes come out. Give him visual recognition of what he does when he's successful vs. when he's not successful.

You can't keep sitting him and throwing him in the video room between every period and bash him ad nauseum about one mistake. Players make a mistake every time they are on the ice, sometimes they lead to chances, to goals, and sometimes they go nowhere but it does not change that they are mental errors.

Point is, you're trying to coach the guy to make him a better player.. not just drag him through the mud every time he makes an error and give him 0 chance of redemption. You also, at some point, have to accept the player he is. For every 10 rushes he does that creates a chance for his team, there will be one that creates a chance for the other team. Ottawa understands that with Karlsson but yet they don't bench him for the remainder of the game. It's not like Karlsson is incapable of acknowledging a mistake he's made.

No one feels worse than Subban after he's made a costly mistake. You can see his reaction on the bench to prove it. Let your thoroughbred defenseman realize you HAVE his back.

Its not one mistake its three in succession, 4 if you consider the ovechkin length shift.
And its not like he hasn't been told, if you tell a guy what he's expected to do and he doesn't you have to sit him.

Subban is the teams best non goalie, but he still is accountable. He did not play well in Detroit (dive) and what happened in Pitt is not rust.

he will get his normal ice time tonight unless he keeps making more mistakes.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

PK turnover being dissected. gionta did the same exact thing that led to a goal. Completely dismissed. DD had a turnover in the neutral zone that could have been costly. No one remembers or cares. Coach plays favorites and the fans are falling for it. High risk high reward. Remember that. If Ottawa wanted to turn EK into Gorges and benched him for every turnover Ottawa would lose a lot more games.

 

[Kriss E]

Its not one mistake its three in succession, 4 if you consider the ovechkin length shift.
And its not like he hasn't been told, if you tell a guy what he's expected to do and he doesn't you have to sit him.

Subban is the teams best non goalie, but he still is accountable. He did not play well in Detroit (dive) and what happened in Pitt is not rust.

he will get his normal ice time tonight unless he keeps making more mistakes.

He didn't make 3 mistakes in succession. He turned it over that's it.
Whatever ensued after was due to him being gassed out from his long shift, except that the coach does tell him to stay on the ice for practically the whole duration of the PP. So if you want to pin this on him, you're reaching quite a bit.

But say he did make 4 terrible mistakes on the same play. So what?? These happens. PK is not a rookie, he's not a sophomore either. We're talking about a guy that has close to 300 NHL games of experience in total. You really think he needs to be glued to the bench?? A Norris winner with close to 300 games of experience?
That makes no sense. Maybe it's time for management to realize that a player that carries the puck so much will make these mistakes. It's going to freaking happen. You can glue his ass to the bench, unless you tell him he can't carry the puck anymore, he will turn it over at times. It has nothing to do with ''teaching him something''.

You think this doesn't happen to Karlsson? Doughty? Keith? Well, think again. It does.

PK knows he did a mistake, and you can see he feels absolutely like crap for it. You saw his reaction when we tied it?? There's nobody happier. We're not talking about a lazy selfish player here. If he was an AK type, fine, I get it. If he was a rookie or sophomore, you need to hold them accountable, I get it.
But that's not the case. Sure, he still needs to learn some things, but the repetitive benching/scratching should not be used on such a player. It's Pejorative Slured.

 

[sandysan]

He didn't make 3 mistakes in succession. He turned it over that's it.
Whatever ensued after was due to him being gassed out from his long shift, except that the coach does tell him to stay on the ice for practically the whole duration of the PP. So if you want to pin this on him, you're reaching quite a bit.

But say he did make 4 terrible mistakes on the same play. So what?? These happens. PK is not a rookie, he's not a sophomore either. We're talking about a guy that has close to 300 NHL games of experience in total. You really think he needs to be glued to the bench?? A Norris winner with close to 300 games of experience?
That makes no sense. Maybe it's time for management to realize that a player that carries the puck so much will make these mistakes. It's going to freaking happen. You can glue his ass to the bench, unless you tell him he can't carry the puck anymore, he will turn it over at times. It has nothing to do with ''teaching him something''.

You think this doesn't happen to Karlsson? Doughty? Keith? Well, think again. It does.

PK knows he did a mistake, and you can see he feels absolutely like crap for it. You saw his reaction when we tied it?? There's nobody happier. We're not talking about a lazy selfish player here. If he was an AK type, fine, I get it. If he was a rookie or sophomore, you need to hold them accountable, I get it.
But that's not the case. Sure, he still needs to learn some things, but the repetitive benching/scratching should not be used on such a player. It's Pejorative Slured.

Four mistakes

1) ovechkin length shift ( to the point he was gassed)

2). Turning the puck over

3) weak ass hook. If a guy had a step on you don't half ass it. If your going to sit 2, dont additionally give up a scoring chance. Trip him right away.

4) giving up on the back check.


Some games guts don't have it, we pull price when he's in a funk. Subban play has not been good recently, people whine how DD gets minutes he does not deserve the answer to this us not giving subban time he doesn't deserve.

The question is " is subban benchable?", if the answer us yes ( it better be) how much worse does he have to play for it to kick in?

if his ice time dries up tonight and going forward you might have a beef, but sitting a guy stinking the joint out us fine by me.