Prospect Info: Prospects and Marlies Thread: Marlies Calder Cup Champions Edition

[Kiwi]

Good distinction on "good homegrown defense".
Agreed on the fridges but I'm not counting rasanen out yet. How long did it take chara to figure it out? (Not comparing anything other than big guys take time). Sens kept redden over chara.....

I count guys out when their tracking badly or have issues that don't seem to be improving

That's a bad sign, I'd be happy to be wrong but I'm concerned

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I count guys out when their tracking badly or have issues that don't seem to be improving

That's a bad sign, I'd be happy to be wrong but I'm concerned

But the thing is that Gordeev is not really trending any better than Rasanen right now. Well maybe Gordeev had so much more room to grow in areas that Rasanen already developed, but they are the same age, and Rasanen was significantly better than Gordeev last year.

Rasanen did not have some huge coming out party or anything, but he improved in a lot of ways. Maybe it's a little bit different now that he has taken a step up, but from the clips I saw of him in his draft year vs. his D+1 year, he definitely improved in the areas you would hope out of a good prospect (i.e. his hockey sense, making good decisions, skating ability, etc.). As he grows into his body, his skating will continue to improve, and maybe he'll even develop more of an offensive game and will continue to use his body against older and bigger competition. Right now he's a teenager with a realistic shot of making a good KHL roster, and that looks good on him. As he adjusts, it will hopefully get better for him.

It is all speculation, but based on what I saw out of Gordeev last year, I do not think he would even be seriously considered for any KHL team right now. At least not one of Jokerit's quality.

 

[Kiwi]

But the thing is that Gordeev is not really trending any better than Rasanen right now. Well maybe Gordeev had so much more room to grow in areas that Rasanen already developed, but they are the same age, and Rasanen was significantly better than Gordeev last year.

Rasanen did not have some huge coming out party or anything, but he improved in a lot of ways. Maybe it's a little bit different now that he has taken a step up, but from the clips I saw of him in his draft year vs. his D+1 year, he definitely improved in the areas you would hope out of a good prospect (i.e. his hockey sense, making good decisions, skating ability, etc.). As he grows into his body, his skating will continue to improve, and maybe he'll even develop more of an offensive game and will continue to use his body against older and bigger competition. Right now he's a teenager with a realistic shot of making a good KHL roster, and that looks good on him. As he adjusts, it will hopefully get better for him.

It is all speculation, but based on what I saw out of Gordeev last year, I do not think he would even be seriously considered for any KHL team right now. At least not one of Jokerit's quality.

Räsänen has had skating issues since he was drafted and he's still got skating issues, he also get pushed down the line-up in Kingston as well as they loaded up and his numbers stagnated

Gordeev was picked significantly later skates much better has decent hands and showed an offensive uptick on a brutal team

Ones progressing the other isn't, that's the issue and neither player is capable of playing in the KHL right now it would seem

 

[saltming]

I count guys out when their tracking badly or have issues that don't seem to be improving

That's a bad sign, I'd be happy to be wrong but I'm concerned

Räsänen has had skating issues since he was drafted and he's still got skating issues, he also get pushed down the line-up in Kingston as well as they loaded up and his numbers stagnated

Gordeev was picked significantly later skates much better has decent hands and showed an offensive uptick on a brutal team

Ones progressing the other isn't, that's the issue and neither player is capable of playing in the KHL right now it would seem

I agree with you on his skating, but again I'm optimistic because of his size. Once his body becomes stronger and his flexibility improves (all would be due to hard work) it could c9me together for him.
Let him develop in the khl were we can hold his rights until he's ready.
Still a high bust potential but I don't think it's any higher than any other draft pick selected at the end of the 2nd round

 

[Kiwi]

I agree with you on his skating, but again I'm optimistic because of his size. Once his body becomes stronger and his flexibility improves (all would be due to hard work) it could c9me together for him.
Let him develop in the khl were we can hold his rights until he's ready.
Still a high bust potential but I don't think it's any higher than any other draft pick selected at the end of the 2nd round

I don't care about his size just how he's tracking and how his weaknesses are being improved

I don't mind size but we did seem to overvalue it at times, especially on defense

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Räsänen has had skating issues since he was drafted and he's still got skating issues, he also get pushed down the line-up in Kingston as well as they loaded up and his numbers stagnated

Gordeev was picked significantly later skates much better has decent hands and showed an offensive uptick on a brutal team

Ones progressing the other isn't, that's the issue and neither player is capable of playing in the KHL right now it would seem

How is Rasanen not progressing? His defensive game improved leaps and bounds over his draft year. His offensive vision looked better too. He lost some of the production because he did not produce as much on the PP, but his 5V5 did improve. His skating looked better too, but still needs more work. He lost some of his offensive minutes to Day, but that is hardly getting "pushed down the lineup".

Gordeev did not progress enough defensively. His skating and offensive game was a little bit smoother than before, and combined with much more ice time resulted in a slight uptick offensively, but it did not translate to defensive success.

Right now both are progressing, but Rasanen is the far superior player and far more likely to turn into anything. He outgrew the OHL and even though he may face an uphill climb to consistent KHL time, he is ready for the challenge. Gordeev is not. Right now Gordeev may not even be trending towards an ELC by the end of next year. Rasanen would get one if we needed to give him one.

 

[saltming]

I don't care about his size just how he's tracking and how his weaknesses are being improved

I don't mind size but we did seem to overvalue it at times, especially on defense

But the thing is that he is getting better. Maybe not at the rate we would like bit that's why I keep bringing up his size, it sometimes takes more time for a big guy. Not bringing it up because I think we need a big defenseman. Just noting that due to his size, his development may take a bit longer

 

[Kiwi]

How is Rasanen not progressing? His defensive game improved leaps and bounds over his draft year. His offensive vision looked better too. He lost some of the production because he did not produce as much on the PP, but his 5V5 did improve. His skating looked better too, but still needs more work. He lost some of his offensive minutes to Day, but that is hardly getting "pushed down the lineup".

Gordeev did not progress enough defensively. His skating and offensive game was a little bit smoother than before, and combined with much more ice time resulted in a slight uptick offensively, but it did not translate to defensive success.

Right now both are progressing, but Rasanen is the far superior player and far more likely to turn into anything. He outgrew the OHL and even though he may face an uphill climb to consistent KHL time, he is ready for the challenge. Gordeev is not. Right now Gordeev may not even be trending towards an ELC by the end of next year. Rasanen would get one if we needed to give him one.

Outgrew the OHL?

He was homesick, claiming a guy who wasn't even the best defenseman on his team outgrew the OHL is ridiculous

Räsänen can't skate well enough still and his numbers didn't improve on a very good team, he isn't track well for a 2nd round pick

Gordeev however came from a much worse place development wise, has better skating and jumped points wise on a brutal team
He has IQ and defensive questions but his tools aren't in doubt and he's seen a large improvment

As of now neither player deserves an ECL and picking one over the other is ridiculous, the only difference is Rasanen was picked in the 2nd and Gordeev was a late round prayer who's shown much more improvment from where he started

 

[Kiwi]

But the thing is that he is getting better. Maybe not at the rate we would like bit that's why I keep bringing up his size, it sometimes takes more time for a big guy. Not bringing it up because I think we need a big defenseman. Just noting that due to his size, his development may take a bit longer

Not anywhere near enough improvment Salt

Size is nice IF he can skate and has skill, however if he can't skate he's not going to amount to anything and he's a long way off

 

[saltming]

Not anywhere near enough improvment Salt

Size is nice IF he can skate and has skill, however if he can't skate he's not going to amount to anything and he's a long way off

I don't think he has bad feet but I agree his skating is good at the moment. 8m just preaching that he may need a bit more time

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Outgrew the OHL?

He was homesick, claiming a guy who wasn't even the best defenseman on his team outgrew the OHL is ridiculous

Räsänen can't skate well enough still and his numbers didn't improve on a very good team, he isn't track well for a 2nd round pick

Gordeev however came from a much worse place development wise, has better skating and jumped points wise on a brutal team
He has IQ and defensive questions but his tools aren't in doubt and he's seen a large improvment

As of now neither player deserves an ECL and picking one over the other is ridiculous, the only difference is Rasanen was picked in the 2nd and Gordeev was a late round prayer who's shown much more improvment from where he started

He was the best defensive guy on his team. He was the second best defenseman offensively too. Homesickness was a factor too, but he was ready to move up. Kingston, or any other OHL team really, was not going to give him what he needed for the next stage of his development.

Besides improving his skating, the only real positive thing that Gordeev has going for him is that he was able to take himself from practically nothing but a set of tools (big body, some good puck handling ability and skating skill) and improve to a semi-capable defenseman who is still really iffy defensively while on a crap team. From where he was, where he is now is a large improvement, but that's not something that should be necessarily celebrated because he's still a long way from being something. Rasanen maybe did not have as large of an improvement because he was already a lot further along, and the improvements are a lot slower at his current stage of development, but he's a lot closer to being something.

The other issue is Gordeev gains a lot of praise because he looks good in comparison to a really bad team. However, like Middleton, ultimately he's going to need to show up in spite of his underperforming team if he wants to get an ELC. Right now, it does not look like Flint is going to be doing him any favours. Maybe Rasanen does not get much ice time, but he is at least he's on a pro team and his development will be taken seriously.

 

[IBeL34f]

It's just the "explosion" part he's lacking, technique and 4-way mobility wise he's really solid

With his passing and IQ I think he's got a ton of upside, just some muscle and gym work needed imo

Between Dermott, Sandin and Liljegren I think we've got the best crop of young defenders developing we've had in my lifetime

I'm a huge fan of the raw skill, high IQ, and skating of guys like Durzi, Hollowell and Kral from this year's draft as well. Add a couple guys like Lindgren, who I think might continue to jump onto peoples' radars as he gets more exposure on the Marlies, and I see lots of reason to be optimistic for the development of our blueline into another legitimate strength on our roster within the next couple of years, without any external additions.

 

[TML1967]

If either of Gordeev or Rasanen makes it into a #5-6 role it would be nice, having a bit of size on the back end.

Ideally they both become NHLers and can be our 3rd pair guys.

Reilly ??
Dermott Liljgren
Gordeev Rasanen

I don't see either of them right now as begin sure fire nhlers but we can dream

 

[Prominence]

I’m curious, how far is gordeev from rasanen? Also, in which ways are rasanen’s defense better than gordeev’s?

 

[Gabriel426]

Going to jump in.

The thing with Big Dmen, at least to me is all about positioning and gaining exp. Chara didn’t become Chara till mid 20s. Burns was okay till his late 20s and now is a top Dman.
I think with big Dmen, patience and development is the key as long as they can skate decently.

 

[ULF_55]

I don't care about his size just how he's tracking and how his weaknesses are being improved

I don't mind size but we did seem to overvalue it at times, especially on defense

Almost seems to be the reverse today, from the ancient size is best era.

Need smarts to go along with speed cause ya gotta have some notion about what to do when you get there ...

I think the Underhill argument is over rated, and kind of navel gazing, all teams are going to have skating coaches.

 

[Menzinger]

Small sample size aside,

 

[Cor]

Fedor Gordeev had scouts buzzing this year. Obviously we want to see if he'll take yet another step forward this year, but he's on track right now to get a ELC from us.

Eemili Rasanen is getting a bit undervalued I think. He was on pace for much higher production. Kingston loaded up, and his PP time got cut because Sean Day become the new PP guy. While it wasn't as big of a jump as you'd hope from a 2nd rounder, Rasanen is still developing well.

As someone said, we need to have some patience. Not everyone can be in the NHL by 20 years old.

 

[Cor]

Small sample size aside,

Grundstrom is a sick player.

0.55ppg as a teenager in the Swedish Hockey League as well, including a 0.69ppg season last year. Tore up the AHL as well.

He's projecting well to become a 30-40 point player in the NHL, as well as the physicality and defensive abilities he brings.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Grundstrom is a sick player.

0.55ppg as a teenager in the Swedish Hockey League as well, including a 0.69ppg season last year. Tore up the AHL as well.

He's projecting well to become a 30-40 point player in the NHL, as well as the physicality and defensive abilities he brings.

If you look at the development curves, Grundstrom is way ahead of where Johnsson was at the same age. If the pattern continues, I think we can reasonably expect Grundstrom to have a pretty dominate year in the AHL this season. Wouldn't be surprised if he gets a bunch of games in the NHL this year too as the first call-up.

He was closer to making the team last year that a lot of people probably remember. Babcock really went out of his way to pump his tires.

 

[Cor]

If you look at the development curves, Grundstrom is way ahead of where Johnsson was at the same age. If the pattern continues, I think we can reasonably expect Grundstrom to have a pretty dominate year in the AHL this season. Wouldn't be surprised if he gets a bunch of games in the NHL this year too as the first call-up.

He was closer to making the team last year that a lot of people probably remember. Babcock really went out of his way to pump his tires.

I personally have him as a darkhorse to make the team this year. If neither Josh Leivo or Tyler Ennis impress in camp, Grundstrom could very well steal that spot. Trevor Moore, Mason Marchment would be competing for that spot as well.

Overall though, you're right. Assuming Grundstrom is back in the AHL, he should have quiet the year.

 

[4thline]

Grundstrom is a sick player.

0.55ppg as a teenager in the Swedish Hockey League as well, including a 0.69ppg season last year. Tore up the AHL as well.

He's projecting well to become a 30-40 point player in the NHL, as well as the physicality and defensive abilities he brings.

To be honest I think that might be selling his upside short. Tracks favorably compared to the likes of Hornqvist/ Silverberg, was top 10/12 in scoring for his u20 wjc, one of the top u21 goalscorers in the modern SHL... legitimately high upside

 

[Kiwi]

I don't think he has bad feet but I agree his skating is good at the moment. 8m just preaching that he may need a bit more time

I didn't mind his feet in his draft year either but he hasn't improved like I thought he would, he was behind where he needed to be and he's not improving enough to make up for it

I won't give up on the kid but I'm getting pessimistic

He was the best defensive guy on his team. He was the second best defenseman offensively too. Homesickness was a factor too, but he was ready to move up. Kingston, or any other OHL team really, was not going to give him what he needed for the next stage of his development.

Besides improving his skating, the only real positive thing that Gordeev has going for him is that he was able to take himself from practically nothing but a set of tools (big body, some good puck handling ability and skating skill) and improve to a semi-capable defenseman who is still really iffy defensively while on a crap team. From where he was, where he is now is a large improvement, but that's not something that should be necessarily celebrated because he's still a long way from being something. Rasanen maybe did not have as large of an improvement because he was already a lot further along, and the improvements are a lot slower at his current stage of development, but he's a lot closer to being something.

The other issue is Gordeev gains a lot of praise because he looks good in comparison to a really bad team. However, like Middleton, ultimately he's going to need to show up in spite of his underperforming team if he wants to get an ELC. Right now, it does not look like Flint is going to be doing him any favours. Maybe Rasanen does not get much ice time, but he is at least he's on a pro team and his development will be taken seriously.

Neither kid is close but for either to make it there going to have to improve exponentially, at least Gordeev is showing rapid improvment from his draft year which Rasanen isn't

If Rasanen can't skate he's going to bust, that's just a fact and Gordeev has skating with decent hands going for him

Rasanen isn't to good for the OHL, he should be playing as a #1 on his OHL team or playing in Liiga at best not the KHL

I'm a huge fan of the raw skill, high IQ, and skating of guys like Durzi, Hollowell and Kral from this year's draft as well. Add a couple guys like Lindgren, who I think might continue to jump onto peoples' radars as he gets more exposure on the Marlies, and I see lots of reason to be optimistic for the development of our blueline into another legitimate strength on our roster within the next couple of years, without any external additions.

The draft and develop model has been one of this regimes best features

Being a "factory" that pumps out talent instead of trying to buy it in free agency has me more hopeful than I've been in my lifetime

Almost seems to be the reverse today, from the ancient size is best era.

Need smarts to go along with speed cause ya gotta have some notion about what to do when you get there ...

I think the Underhill argument is over rated, and kind of navel gazing, all teams are going to have skating coaches.

I think skating coaches can help but we do seem to be asking a lot of Underhill with some of the projects we're giving her

 

[Canada4Gold]

If you look at the development curves, Grundstrom is way ahead of where Johnsson was at the same age. If the pattern continues, I think we can reasonably expect Grundstrom to have a pretty dominate year in the AHL this season. Wouldn't be surprised if he gets a bunch of games in the NHL this year too as the first call-up.

He was closer to making the team last year that a lot of people probably remember. Babcock really went out of his way to pump his tires.

IDK if Grundstrom is that far ahead of Johnsson at the same age. Yes, Grundstrom has come over to the AHL a year earlier and put up those numbers in the AHL much quicker than Johnsson did. But their draft+1, and draft+2 in the SHL are quite similar. I think Grundstrom's style is a more North American type of style, and suits the rink saize more than Johnsson so Johnsson stayed over there longer and took longer to adapt when he did come over. But for those same reasons I don't think you'd expect to see the same later development in Grundstrom that we've seen in Johnsson this past year either.

I think they'll end up as similar value players with obvious differences in styles. Grundstrom probably has a higher ceiling given he's more advanced at the younger age so there's more room there for development into more than what we expect. But not sure we should expect that the way Johnsson did.

 

[Joey Hoser]

IDK if Grundstrom is that far ahead of Johnsson at the same age.

Grundstrom was better at 20 in the AHL than Johnsson was at 22, so yeah he is quite a bit ahead.