Prospect Info: Prospect Talk PART XI

[BroadwayJay*]

Thanks

Lee is just a guy I don't worry about. he is an NHL player and will be a very useful one. With size, which this team is going to need.

IM done arguing, or even getting bent out of shape over who labels who a second liner third liner or fourth liner. the kid can play, and the doubters see that now, same deal with hickey, I had to battle for that kid for over a year too.


Donovan is next....

Well, you're not alone at least. Although you might be better off without me. I'm afraid a certain poster is going to come to my apartment and punch me in the face pretty soon.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

i know Draisaitl is good, but i have to confess something ludicrous.

i had a dream once, in which he scored a goal, and looked right at me, but it was the face of Niederreiter.

is this a bad sign? i don't mean for the team. i mean for me. do i need pills or something?

Time to see a shrink...

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

While Dal Colle is more towards a bigger all around guy, I love his fit. The intriguing fit is definitely Ritchie or possibly even Virtanen.

I can't really comment on either Dal Colle or Ritchie as I've only seen both in very small sample sizes internationally. Ritchie impressed me as an underager at the U18 in Sochi, but unfortunately got injured. Dal Colle didn't stick out all that much at the Ivan Hlinka last summer, where Bennett and Spencer were the cogs to that team.

What I can really say is that Virtanen, who I feel I've gotten a good feel for simply isn't a top 5 pick in this draft. There are easily 10 players, if not forwards alone, who are currently better players with bigger upside.

He may be a nice guy to get in the teens or twenties, but I think we should leave him out of the discussion for going 5th overall.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

I know Scott was a big Lee pumper. Could have been someone else though(Chapin maybe?).

Welp, have always been high on the winner's pedigree he displayed, right from high school on. Was real happy to see him taken as the biggest worry was whether he'd choose football, which never really seemed like much of a worry after he was picked.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

It wasn't Scott, ITM (were you even back yet from the self imposed exile?), you Chapin... none of the normal prospect watch crew. Someone called Lee carrying his scoring streak right into the NHL. It was gutsy for HFB, not because they did it, but because they nailed it. lol

Anyway, love Lee, and I'm not listening to the naysayers. I want to see him farting in goaltenders faces while Tavares puts pucks at the net, and I am pretty sure we are going to see that for a few games sometime in Oct/Nov.

 

[Sorge Georos]

It wasn't Scott, ITM (were you even back yet from the self imposed exile?), you Chapin... none of the normal prospect watch crew. Someone called Lee carrying his scoring streak right into the NHL. It was gutsy for HFB, not because they did it, but because they nailed it. lol

Anyway, love Lee, and I'm not listening to the naysayers. I want to see him farting in goaltenders faces while Tavares puts pucks at the net, and I am pretty sure we are going to see that for a few games sometime in Oct/Nov.

It was leeroggy. He was Lee's ultimate fan.

 

[InformTheMasses]

It wasn't Scott, ITM (were you even back yet from the self imposed exile?), you Chapin... none of the normal prospect watch crew. Someone called Lee carrying his scoring streak right into the NHL. It was gutsy for HFB, not because they did it, but because they nailed it.

okay, didn't know you meant recent prediction of immediate point scoring streak upon call up. that makes more sense. technically IM still not back from my self imposed hiatus. IM just worse at staying of the boards these days. the hiatus was only partly hockey related (jack capuano being employed), I also had a lot of family issues as we'll as acquiring a new business and getting that off the ground. so I didn't have much free time.

on lee, the only guy I remember liking lee more than me a few years ago was a poster named ndgolden

 

[Jester9881]

I get the feeling that this is a case of draft position steering player perception. If Lee had committed to hockey before the draft, he goes much higher than he did.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

okay, didn't know you meant recent prediction of immediate point scoring streak upon call up. that makes more sense. technically IM still not back from my self imposed hiatus. IM just worse at staying of the boards these days. the hiatus was only partly hockey related (jack capuano being employed), I also had a lot of family issues as we'll as acquiring a new business and getting that off the ground. so I didn't have much free time.

on lee, the only guy I remember liking lee more than me a few years ago was a poster named ndgolden

I hope your family is doing ok now. Nothing will grind your life to a halt faster than something that puts a hurt on the home, speaking from experience...

 

[InformTheMasses]

I hope your family is doing ok now. Nothing will grind your life to a halt faster than something that puts a hurt on the home, speaking from experience...

Thanks, much appreciated. Just glad to have some time to talk hockey again. Didn't attend very many juniors games in the second half of last season but still saw plenty on TV.

Think it's odd that the islanders decided to keep this year's pick when they are treating the 5th overall selection as an asset that SHOULD be moved if at all possible. If they were so dead set on trading a draft pick for immediate help, I would argue they should have kept the 2015 as that likely still has more value even though it's undetermined and a year out.

To clarify, I would have kept the 2014 pick, but I would keep it and make the selection. They are acting like they aren't thrilled with who is projected to be there at 5. If true..... why keep it? Trading the pick and publicly stating that no player in the draft is nhl ready? Way to devalue your biggest asset for no reason at all other than listening to yourself talk.

 

[fnfelon]

To clarify, I would have kept the 2014 pick, but I would keep it and make the selection. They are acting like they aren't thrilled with who is projected to be there at 5. If true..... why keep it? Trading the pick and publicly stating that no player in the draft is nhl ready? Way to devalue your biggest asset for no reason at all other than listening to yourself talk.

Brilliant, yes why devalue an important asset you may want to trade? The only answer that I can discern, and what is the general consensus among Isles fans suffering through this ineptitude for years, is they don't know WTF they're doing. You know, we hear scant about what they're doing or where they want to go, and when we do hear something from these a-holes it is essentially verbal vomit. You can't make this stuff up; just another reason why we are considered a laughing stock.

 

[JPIsles21]

Thanks, much appreciated. Just glad to have some time to talk hockey again. Didn't attend very many juniors games in the second half of last season but still saw plenty on TV.

Think it's odd that the islanders decided to keep this year's pick when they are treating the 5th overall selection as an asset that SHOULD be moved if at all possible. If they were so dead set on trading a draft pick for immediate help, I would argue they should have kept the 2015 as that likely still has more value even though it's undetermined and a year out.

To clarify, I would have kept the 2014 pick, but I would keep it and make the selection. They are acting like they aren't thrilled with who is projected to be there at 5. If true..... why keep it? Trading the pick and publicly stating that no player in the draft is nhl ready? Way to devalue your biggest asset for no reason at all other than listening to yourself talk.

I agree about keeping the pick and making a selection. However, I don't think Snow is de-valuing the pick, just simply stating what most people are thinking: none of the prospects available at 5 are NHL ready. Drouin wasn't ready last year, his value was not at all affected.

Snow said a really good young player or a top dman are targets if the 5th pick is to be dealt. Anything short of a package for Subban, Pacioretty, Kane, etc would be a disappointing return for the 5 pick. Teams begin to run into problems when they trade away 1st round picks in consecutive years. Price tag will be too high of anyone worth trading the 5 for, so I think we hang onto the pick. I hope we swing for the fences on this pick: I'd love Nylander.

 

[scott99]

I've been a fan of Lee's since his last year at Green Bay (USHL) and his first year at Notre Dame. Never really knew about the guy pre draft. When I researched after the draft on YouTube, there was a lot of football video.

On another note, I feel we lose a key prospect on Friday at the draft. That idiot Snow is pushing really hard to get a young established wing or Dman, and I can see #5 and a guy like Pulock being traded for Evander Kane. And like I said on our draft board, I can see Dal Colle, Ehlers or Nylander being better than Kane in 3 years, or whoever we trade for.

 

[scott99]

I agree about keeping the pick and making a selection. However, I don't think Snow is de-valuing the pick, just simply stating what most people are thinking: none of the prospects available at 5 are NHL ready. Drouin wasn't ready last year, his value was not at all affected.

Snow said a really good young player or a top dman are targets if the 5th pick is to be dealt. Anything short of a package for Subban, Pacioretty, Kane, etc would be a disappointing return for the 5 pick. Teams begin to run into problems when they trade away 1st round picks in consecutive years. Price tag will be too high of anyone worth trading the 5 for, so I think we hang onto the pick. I hope we swing for the fences on this pick: I'd love Nylander.

Get ready to be disappointed. Snow has NEVER won a trade or has gotten equal value, he always gets destroyed in big trades. And where there's smoke, there's fire, it has come from the fat horse's mouth, he's looking to trade the #5 pick. I know he's said it at every draft (except 2009) that the draft pick was in play, but he's said it A LOT this year. The ONLY thing that can save us is if Snow pushes really hard for equal or higher value, and he doesn't find a dance partner. Otherwise most average to good GMs know they can rip Snow off blind.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

Thanks, much appreciated. Just glad to have some time to talk hockey again. Didn't attend very many juniors games in the second half of last season but still saw plenty on TV.

Think it's odd that the islanders decided to keep this year's pick when they are treating the 5th overall selection as an asset that SHOULD be moved if at all possible. If they were so dead set on trading a draft pick for immediate help, I would argue they should have kept the 2015 as that likely still has more value even though it's undetermined and a year out.

To clarify, I would have kept the 2014 pick, but I would keep it and make the selection. They are acting like they aren't thrilled with who is projected to be there at 5. If true..... why keep it? Trading the pick and publicly stating that no player in the draft is nhl ready? Way to devalue your biggest asset for no reason at all other than listening to yourself talk.

He's putting the for-sale sign up while trying to justify it to the fan base all in the same breath. For good or bad he likely thinks his opinion won't impact any other GM's opinion, much in the same way Wpg can complain about Kane yet when trade talks erupt they downplay their own argument.

Kane looks more and more like a viable target btw. I fear the exchange cost though.

 

[JPIsles21]

Get ready to be disappointed. Snow has NEVER won a trade or has gotten equal value, he always gets destroyed in big trades. And where there's smoke, there's fire, it has come from the fat horse's mouth, he's looking to trade the #5 pick. I know he's said it at every draft (except 2009) that the draft pick was in play, but he's said it A LOT this year. The ONLY thing that can save us is if Snow pushes really hard for equal or higher value, and he doesn't find a dance partner. Otherwise most average to good GMs know they can rip Snow off blind.

This is an unfair misconception. History of notable Snow Trades:

A. Zhitnik for Freddy Meyer, 62nd (M. Katic)
M. York for Randy Robitaille, 148th (M.Martin)
D. Grebeshkov for MA. Bergeron, 73rd (K. Petrov)
46th (T. Ruth) for R. Zednik
R. Nilsson, R. O’Marra, 15th (A. Plante) for R. Smyth

A. Rourke, 73rd (K. Petrov) for 53rd (T. Hamonic)
P. Nokelainen for Ben Walter
C. Simon for 176th (J. DiBenedetto)
MA Bergeron for 73rd (K. Petrov) – this pick bounced around a bit

5th pick (L. Schenn) for J. Bailey, A. Ness, J. Niemi, D. Ullstrom, and a 2nd rounder used to move up for C. de Haan
C. Campoli and M. Comrie for D. McAmmond and 26th overall
Bill Guerin basically for 82nd pick (J. Clark)

Net Trade: 26th (K. Palmieri), 37th (M. Clark), 56th (K. Lynch), 181st (E. Haula) for 12th (C. de Haan)

Sum of trades: A. Sutton, 35th (L. Rensfeldt) for 30th (B. Nelson)
95th (S. Silas) for 63rd (A. Pedan)
65th (J. Cramarossa) for J. Wisniewski
J. Wisniewski for 50th (J. Sundstrom)
D. Roloson for T. Wishart

45th (N. Sorensen) for L. Visnovsky

S. Harper, 108th for M. Streit’s rights
N. Niederreiter for C. Clutterbuck, 70th (E. McAdam)
Net Trade excluding Vanek/Moulson: 2015 1st rd + 2nd rd, 2014th 5th rd for S. Collberg, 2014 2nd rd
Net Trade: P. Regin, PM. Bouchard for J. Halak rights
A. MacDonald for 78th, 2015 2nd rd

These are the list of all the notable trades he made. Some here can be considered minor. I took the liberties of only listing assets traded instead of listing individual trades. The focus is on assets traded for assets gained.

The ones he lost include Nino and Vanek deals. However, to me the mistake was not the trade, but rather the drafting of Nino (instead of Fowler/Gormley), then rushing him. This was a mistake. With the Vanek trade, the trade would have obviously looked a lot different if he signed. It was a major gamble, one Snow does not take if he is a GM of a team that has an easier time attracting top players.

Most of the trades there involve lots of draft pick maneuvering, some very shrewd. For instance, getting an extra second rounder to draft Hamonic. Also basically using assets from Sutton trade to move up to draft Brock Nelson.

Overall, these are mostly moves of a team re-building through the draft. You have two major gambles: Smyth and Vanek. Smyth trade turned out to be a wash as all the players traded busted and Smyth never signed with us. Vanek trade has a chance to be very damaging. And the Nino trade was obviously an example of Snow trading for a position of weakness in which a player was openly disgruntled.

A lot of GMs lose trades. However, the margin of error is a lot smaller for any GM of a team like the Isles. Overall he has done an average job with trades, with the downfall being major gambles on players that do not see the Islanders as an attractive option.

 

[boredmale]

P. Nokelainen for Ben Walter

They actually picked up a 2nd round pick in 2009 in this trade(56th overall)

Overall I think Snow has a problem that he expects to much out of trades. I think some of his worst ones are trades were we get absolutely nothing for a guy who is going to be a UFA(Parenteau, Martinek, etc), even if it's like a 3rd rounder. Seems in general Snow has problems trading away guys at the deadline(see Guerin). Once in a blue moon you might get a score like he did with Campoli to Ottawa but more often then not you won't.

Another trade that stands out is Zhitnik for Meyer and a 3rd rounder. At the time I thought it was a great return but Philly turned around and traded Zhitnik for Colburne.

All in all most the trades are washes and you can point to

Trading down in 2008 and getting something of value for Campoli as positives, while the Vanek Deals negative(the second one more so then the first one) and time will tell on the Nino trade. One could argue in the case of the 2nd Vanek deal having a cheap ass owner really hurt his value(ie you might have been able to get something better paying half his salary), also if Collberg ever turns into anything above average in the NHL the trade in hindsight will look ok.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

To clarify, I would have kept the 2014 pick, but I would keep it and make the selection. They are acting like they aren't thrilled with who is projected to be there at 5. If true..... why keep it? Trading the pick and publicly stating that no player in the draft is nhl ready? Way to devalue your biggest asset for no reason at all other than listening to yourself talk.

I guess there's no harm in letting people know that you're willing to trade the pick, especially when so many teams are looking to move bodies and perhaps draft positions.

Seems a normal thing that we shouldn't look too much into.

In general, I think the organization is keeping the pick, because they feell they'll be a playoff club next year.

Like you, it's the decision I'd make. Even if you keep the pick and simply pick, there are good dozen+ kids in this first round who seem to have good possibilities at the NHL level in the future.

 

[PROMputt]

Get ready to be disappointed. Snow has NEVER won a trade or has gotten equal value, he always gets destroyed in big trades. And where there's smoke, there's fire, it has come from the fat horse's mouth, he's looking to trade the #5 pick. I know he's said it at every draft (except 2009) that the draft pick was in play, but he's said it A LOT this year. The ONLY thing that can save us is if Snow pushes really hard for equal or higher value, and he doesn't find a dance partner. Otherwise most average to good GMs know they can rip Snow off blind.

I was thinking the same exact thing. I simply do not trust Snow when trying to pull off a big trade. I don't know if he under-values what he has, over values what he is trading for, or simply is just a dummy...

 

[blinkman360]

They actually picked up a 2nd round pick in 2009 in this trade(56th overall)

Overall I think Snow has a problem that he expects to much out of trades. I think some of his worst ones are trades were we get absolutely nothing for a guy who is going to be a UFA(Parenteau, Martinek, etc), even if it's like a 3rd rounder. Seems in general Snow has problems trading away guys at the deadline(see Guerin). Once in a blue moon you might get a score like he did with Campoli to Ottawa but more often then not you won't.

Another trade that stands out is Zhitnik for Meyer and a 3rd rounder. At the time I thought it was a great return but Philly turned around and traded Zhitnik for Colburne.

All in all most the trades are washes and you can point to

Trading down in 2008 and getting something of value for Campoli as positives, while the Vanek Deals negative(the second one more so then the first one) and time will tell on the Nino trade. One could argue in the case of the 2nd Vanek deal having a cheap ass owner really hurt his value(ie you might have been able to get something better paying half his salary), also if Collberg ever turns into anything above average in the NHL the trade in hindsight will look ok.

Moral of the story, being a GM is probably a lot harder than some think.

Snow sells early on Zhitnik, gets a decent return. Turns out if he would have held on longer, he would have gotten a blue chip.

Snow thinks he learns his lesson. Decides to wait on selling Vanek to get max value(apparently turning down at least one 'substantial' offer). Ends up being the wrong move, and sells him for scraps.

Obviously making the Vanek move in the first place was the real issue, but considering past trades such as Gaustad for a 1st, I'm assuming that Garth thought best case: the team competes and locks up a star LW; worst case: they don't, and ship Vanek off breaking even or close to it.

The market for rentals this year was the worst I've seen in a long time. While I don't think Snow is a good GM, I do think that the Vanek situation had a lot to do with bad timing. Any other year, the return is Collberg and a 1st.

 

[rikker]

This is an unfair misconception. History of notable Snow Trades:

A. Zhitnik for Freddy Meyer, 62nd (M. Katic)
M. York for Randy Robitaille, 148th (M.Martin)
D. Grebeshkov for MA. Bergeron, 73rd (K. Petrov)
46th (T. Ruth) for R. Zednik
R. Nilsson, R. O’Marra, 15th (A. Plante) for R. Smyth

A. Rourke, 73rd (K. Petrov) for 53rd (T. Hamonic)
P. Nokelainen for Ben Walter
C. Simon for 176th (J. DiBenedetto)
MA Bergeron for 73rd (K. Petrov) – this pick bounced around a bit

5th pick (L. Schenn) for J. Bailey, A. Ness, J. Niemi, D. Ullstrom, and a 2nd rounder used to move up for C. de Haan
C. Campoli and M. Comrie for D. McAmmond and 26th overall
Bill Guerin basically for 82nd pick (J. Clark)

Net Trade: 26th (K. Palmieri), 37th (M. Clark), 56th (K. Lynch), 181st (E. Haula) for 12th (C. de Haan)

Sum of trades: A. Sutton, 35th (L. Rensfeldt) for 30th (B. Nelson)
95th (S. Silas) for 63rd (A. Pedan)
65th (J. Cramarossa) for J. Wisniewski
J. Wisniewski for 50th (J. Sundstrom)
D. Roloson for T. Wishart

45th (N. Sorensen) for L. Visnovsky

S. Harper, 108th for M. Streit’s rights
N. Niederreiter for C. Clutterbuck, 70th (E. McAdam)
Net Trade excluding Vanek/Moulson: 2015 1st rd + 2nd rd, 2014th 5th rd for S. Collberg, 2014 2nd rd
Net Trade: P. Regin, PM. Bouchard for J. Halak rights
A. MacDonald for 78th, 2015 2nd rd

These are the list of all the notable trades he made. Some here can be considered minor. I took the liberties of only listing assets traded instead of listing individual trades. The focus is on assets traded for assets gained.

The ones he lost include Nino and Vanek deals. However, to me the mistake was not the trade, but rather the drafting of Nino (instead of Fowler/Gormley), then rushing him. This was a mistake. With the Vanek trade, the trade would have obviously looked a lot different if he signed. It was a major gamble, one Snow does not take if he is a GM of a team that has an easier time attracting top players.

Most of the trades there involve lots of draft pick maneuvering, some very shrewd. For instance, getting an extra second rounder to draft Hamonic. Also basically using assets from Sutton trade to move up to draft Brock Nelson.

Overall, these are mostly moves of a team re-building through the draft. You have two major gambles: Smyth and Vanek. Smyth trade turned out to be a wash as all the players traded busted and Smyth never signed with us. Vanek trade has a chance to be very damaging. And the Nino trade was obviously an example of Snow trading for a position of weakness in which a player was openly disgruntled.

A lot of GMs lose trades. However, the margin of error is a lot smaller for any GM of a team like the Isles. Overall he has done an average job with trades, with the downfall being major gambles on players that do not see the Islanders as an attractive option.

i think it indicates that Snow is not great or terrible, at trading. we also do not know of the trades that Snow turned down. he may have turned down 20 terrible offers, which he should be credited for. conversely, he may have turned down some offers that would have worked out great for us.

too many question marks, to judge accurately.

 

[blinkman360]

i think it indicates that Snow is not great or terrible, at trading. we also do not know of the trades that Snow turned down. he may have turned down 20 terrible offers, which he should be credited for. conversely, he may have turned down some offers that would have worked out great for us.

too many question marks, to judge accurately.

Plus perceptions can change. Collberg can become a stud, and this 2nd can turn into a serviceable player for us(maybe our goaltender of the future). Clutterbuck could become instrumental during a Cup run(never know...).

Vanek signing with us this offseason would dramatically change the way people view the trade. No way he signs here without playing here first, so he would have to be counted with Collberg and the 2nd as net returns.

Either way - **** looks bad now, but a lot can change in a year or two.

 

[Nikolai Koolaidman]

Plus perceptions can change. Collberg can become a stud, and this 2nd can turn into a serviceable player for us(maybe our goaltender of the future). Clutterbuck could become instrumental during a Cup run(never know...).

Vanek signing with us this offseason would dramatically change the way people view the trade. No way he signs here without playing here first, so he would have to be counted with Collberg and the 2nd as net returns.

Either way - **** looks bad now, but a lot can change in a year or two.

Hey you never really know who's the winner of a trade for a couple of years. Honestly I don't think Collberg will be anything special but who knows and maybe both of the picks we sent to Buffalo bust and dont play a game in the NHL.

 

[TROLLCHUK]

Hey you never really know who's the winner of a trade for a couple of years. Honestly I don't think Collberg will be anything special but who knows and maybe both of the picks we sent to Buffalo bust and dont play a game in the NHL.

Snow wanted Collberg and he was taken right before our pick and we got Pokka instead. Guess he really, really likes the kid.

 

[periferal]

Snow wanted Collberg and he was taken right before our pick and we got Pokka instead.

Where did you read that?