Player Discussion Prime Alfie vs. Prime Karlsson

[armani]

It's Karlsson and to be honest it's not even close. Alfredsson was a marvelous player but he was never at any point that I can recall considered arguably the best player in the league. Karlsson is one of the most stellar talents to play on the blueline in God knows how long. AND he doesn't have the benefit of playing in the new rules post 04-05 lockout. AND he doesn't have the benefit of playing with a couple of guys like Spezza and Heatley in their prime. Also, a lot of the things Alfredsson is credited for didn't come until late in his career here. The 2007 playoffs was probably the single deciding factor in management not trading him away. People often forget how often Alfredsson was mentioned as being an underachiever for this team when it mattered.

IMO, Alfie was robbed by Lecavalier and Niedermayer for the Hart and Conn Smythe, respectively. Alfie was simply underrated, and came into the league without any bells and whistles as a late round pick (overager) who came in and won the Calder to the smallest fanfare known to NHL fans.

 

[topshelf15]

It's Karlsson and to be honest it's not even close. Alfredsson was a marvelous player but he was never at any point that I can recall considered arguably the best player in the league. Karlsson is one of the most stellar talents to play on the blueline in God knows how long. AND he doesn't have the benefit of playing in the new rules post 04-05 lockout. AND he doesn't have the benefit of playing with a couple of guys like Spezza and Heatley in their prime. Also, a lot of the things Alfredsson is credited for didn't come until late in his career here. The 2007 playoffs was probably the single deciding factor in management not trading him away. People often forget how often Alfredsson was mentioned as being an underachiever for this team when it mattered.

Or by people who didnt look at the team we had surrounding him,we had good not great teams for half the time he was here .Him as a rookie told the whole story

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

These are pretty tough to beat..




However EK has plenty of time to get there.

 

[Baby Ryan]

Erik Karlsson

Don't smite me.

 

[SpezzaNoLookDropPass]

These are pretty tough to beat..



However EK has plenty of time to get there.

Alfie-Spezza-Heatley memories

 

[BankStreetParade]

Or by people who didnt look at the team we had surrounding him,we had good not great teams for half the time he was here .Him as a rookie told the whole story

Not really. There's this idea that Alfredsson was constantly on good not great teams. But the reality is Ottawa was one of the top teams in the league for nearly a decade.

1998-99: 103 pts. 2 seed East.
1999-00: 95 pts. 6 seed East.
2000-01: 109 pts. 2 seed East.
2001-02: 94 pts. 7 seed East.
2002-03: 113 pts. 1 seed East. President's Trophy.
2003-04: 102 pts. 5 seed East. (4 pts back of TB for 1 seed)
2004-05: lockout
2005-06: 113 pts. 1 seed East.
2006-07: 105 pts. 4 seed East.

 

[BankStreetParade]

IMO, Alfie was robbed by Lecavalier and Niedermayer for the Hart and Conn Smythe, respectively. Alfie was simply underrated, and came into the league without any bells and whistles as a late round pick (overager) who came in and won the Calder to the smallest fanfare known to NHL fans.

Lecavalier never won the Hart. And the closest Alfredsson ever got in Hart voting was 05-06 and it's hard to argue that he deserved it more than a guy who had 125 points and nearly 100 assists.

 

[armani]

Lecavalier never won the Hart. And the closest Alfredsson ever got in Hart voting was 05-06 and it's hard to argue that he deserved it more than a guy who had 125 points and nearly 100 assists.

I have no idea what I was thinking there, other than a lapse in memory. Alfie was underrated in Ottawa in the early-mid 2000s, as I mentioned earlier whatever is said to praise Toews today (other than team awards such as cup rings), Alfie fit those descriptions.

 

[Real Smart Sens Fan]

I don't think Karlsson has hit his prime, unless you consider his 17 game pre-Cooke dominance his prime. With that in mind, I take Alfie. Alfie had a not-so-brief stretch where he was easily a top 3 player in the league, imo.

 

[Sens]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VEkXKI74jk0

I still get goosebumps

 

[Sens]

When EK gets the whole stadium chanting his name in the playoffs and he proceeds to score a goal... This is not even a conversation

EK has some epic moments but nothing he had done comes close

 

[Agent Zub]

I have no idea what I was thinking there, other than a lapse in memory. Alfie was underrated in Ottawa in the early-mid 2000s, as I mentioned earlier whatever is said to praise Toews today (other than team awards such as cup rings), Alfie fit those descriptions.

plus he's actual an elite offensive player

Alfredsson>>Toews

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Alfie will always be my favorite player, but Karlsson will probably end up being the better player. MIght already be.

Of course prime Alfie was just dominant . . . that run where they went to the finals he was the best player in the world. Deserved the Con Smyth even though they lost.

 

[trentmccleary]

Also, a lot of the things Alfredsson is credited for didn't come until late in his career here. The 2007 playoffs was probably the single deciding factor in management not trading him away. People often forget how often Alfredsson was mentioned as being an underachiever for this team when it mattered.

Alfredsson was emerging well before the lockout though.
The big problem for him was 4 straight years of injuries early in his career. 71 points in year 2 and the next one was 4 years later in a 68 game season.

Starting in 2002 is when you start seeing the top-10 finishes (G, Pts, PPG), Selke votes, Byng votes and the odd Hart votes. But he had to clear a long history of injuries to get to that point.

Playoffs:
From 1997-2002, Alfredsson was Ottawa's offense in the playoffs. 44-22-37 out of 81 total goals. His PPG was slightly higher than his regular seasons and his GPG was much higher. If we won a game or a series, it was probably because of Alfredsson. It was the other offensive players who fell off in most of that era.

2003
7 points in 11 games before 1 point in 7 games vs. New Jersey. Do me a favour... Jacques Martin coached him for 69 games in the playoffs. Go to hockey reference and look up all of those postseason game logs for all other seasons and then look at 2003. You're looking for mins played in each game.

You're going to see very high mins from 1997-2002 & 2004. High mins for the first 3 games of 2003. Then very low mins for the next dozen games, particularly in wins. Then his minutes ramp up again in the last 3 games against New Jersey when it looked like we'd lose the series.

What does that indicate to you?

 

[armani]

Alfredsson was emerging well before the lockout though.
The big problem for him was 4 straight years of injuries early in his career. 71 points in year 2 and the next one was 4 years later in a 68 game season.

Starting in 2002 is when you start seeing the top-10 finishes (G, Pts, PPG), Selke votes, Byng votes and the odd Hart votes. But he had to clear a long history of injuries to get to that point.

Playoffs:
From 1997-2002, Alfredsson was Ottawa's offense in the playoffs. 44-22-37 out of 81 total goals. His PPG was slightly higher than his regular seasons and his GPG was much higher. If we won a game or a series, it was probably because of Alfredsson. It was the other offensive players who fell off in most of that era.

2003
7 points in 11 games before 1 point in 7 games vs. New Jersey. Do me a favour... Jacques Martin coached him for 69 games in the playoffs. Go to hockey reference and look up all of those postseason game logs for all other seasons and then look at 2003. You're looking for mins played in each game.

You're going to see very high mins from 1997-2002 & 2004. High mins for the first 3 games of 2003. Then very low mins for the next dozen games, particularly in wins. Then his minutes ramp up again in the last 3 games against New Jersey when it looked like we'd lose the series.

What does that indicate to you?

Jacques "What The ****" Martin was a good system coach for a young up and coming team. He was never versatile enough with in-game coaching in the post season, in fact he was very much of what we saw from DC wrt a rinse n repeat system.

A lot of the heavyweight Sens' failures in the playoffs, especially against the Leafs, can be attributed to Count Jacquella!

Alfie did his part, and then some, but his ascension to becoming an all-time Sens great coincided with the departure of Martin.

 

[Flamingo]

It's Karlsson and to be honest it's not even close. Alfredsson was a marvelous player but he was never at any point that I can recall considered arguably the best player in the league. Karlsson is one of the most stellar talents to play on the blueline in God knows how long. AND he doesn't have the benefit of playing in the new rules post 04-05 lockout. AND he doesn't have the benefit of playing with a couple of guys like Spezza and Heatley in their prime. Also, a lot of the things Alfredsson is credited for didn't come until late in his career here. The 2007 playoffs was probably the single deciding factor in management not trading him away. People often forget how often Alfredsson was mentioned as being an underachiever for this team when it mattered.

Well said.

But I can't turn my back on Alfie. Remember his goal against Anaheim, where Getzlaf was draped off his back as he skated the full length of the ice?

What a tough question.

Also, anyone who suggested trading Alfie at the time was lower than a Leaf fan in my eyes.

 

[Liliaceae]

Mr.Nachos gets my vote.

 

[HavlatMach9]

Wasn't there a hate fest or that a large portion of the fanbase wanted Alfredsson traded before labeling him as a 'god'? Craig Conroy?

Don't think so.

Alfie is a player every teams wants big time, but Karlsson drives teams forward, so Karlsson.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Don't think so.

Alfie is a player every teams wants big time, but Karlsson drives teams forward, so Karlsson.

That's absolutely true:

in November of 2006, it was believed that the Senators were considering a deal that would send Craig Conroy to Ottawa in exchange for Daniel Alfredsson. Craig. Conroy. Conroy finished that season in Los Angeles with 16 points in 52 games.

Source

And this 2006 article by Scanlan in the Citizen confirms.

 

[HavlatMach9]

IIRC HFSens were not happy at all with that rumour.

 

[MarkStone]

Choose prime Karlsson without a doubt, although prime Alfie is the greater legend and folk hero. Alfie also had far better teams to play on however (not like he didn't play a part in those teams being contenders though). We need to give Karlsson more playoff opportunities, he has always stepped up.

 

[trentmccleary]

Jacques "What The ****" Martin was a good system coach for a young up and coming team. He was never versatile enough with in-game coaching in the post season, in fact he was very much of what we saw from DC wrt a rinse n repeat system.

A lot of the heavyweight Sens' failures in the playoffs, especially against the Leafs, can be attributed to Count Jacquella!

Alfie did his part, and then some, but his ascension to becoming an all-time Sens great coincided with the departure of Martin.

The actual answer is that it looks exactly like a coach managing the ice time of an injured star in 2003.

 

[armani]

The actual answer is that it looks exactly like a coach managing the ice time of an injured star in 2003.

I am confused by your answer Trent.

Zibby-Brass trade was made immediately after this poll started to trend in the HF Sens hockey world. Coincidence?

 

[Back in Black]

Wasn't there a hate fest or that a large portion of the fanbase wanted Alfredsson traded before labeling him as a 'god'?

There was one of Murray for not signing him and letting him walk!

 

[pm88]

Prime Alfredsson. Karlsson's overall game is not even close to being as refined as Alfie's was in his prime. Offensively Karlsson has matched Alfie already but defensively he lags behind by a good margin. I never saw Alfredsson make the same types of mistakes defensively that Karlsson does. He was just so smooth and smart out there all the time.

Alfredsson for now