Helene St. James Prices likely too high; Wings may well decide to go with what they've got

[Syckle78]

Let me rephrase what I said. You don't FA your way into championships like the Yankees. FA is best served in getting that last piece of the puzzle you need. You should have most of your team put together already.

OK and who said build the roster through free agency? We're talking about a lack of supplement talent over the last 4-5 years. You want to bring in Jagr,why? Is he going to make us cup contenders. Yiu seem to like riding the fence and playing both sides. You want to point out that we were a hair from beating the cup champs as if that makes us close to competing. Yet you say be patient for 2-3 years and dont spend money on upgrades. Which is it? And where does broken down Jagr fit in?

 

[YostisHome]

Classic Kenny the past few years... organization on cruise control. Why the hell do you sign Franzen for the contract you did if you don't plan to load up and make a run? Nothing in this organization follows a plan, trend, logical path....nothing. Nill must have felt like David Spade in Tommy Boy as Holland clearly fits the role of Bobby Callahan post-cap.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Classic Kenny the past few years... organization on cruise control. Why the hell do you sign Franzen for the contract you did if you don't plan to load up and make a run? Nothing in this organization follows a plan, trend, logical path....nothing. Nill must have felt like David Spade in Tommy Boy as Holland clearly fits the role of Bobby Callahan post-cap.

What moves could Holland have done? Name me specific names of available FAs or trades.

And don't seriously tell me we need to "WIN ONE FOR MULE!"

 

[Vladdy84]

What moves could Holland have done? Name me specific names of available FAs or trades.

And don't seriously tell me we need to "WIN ONE FOR MULE!"

Sign Semin last year for 2 years at 13M or 1 year at 7M.

 

[YostisHome]

What moves should Holland have made? Resigned.

 

[Fugu]

A lot of teams are using amnesty buyouts in order to get under the cap, or get cap space to fill out the rest of their roster with cheap pieces.

Or they're taking advantage of the fact that they can get out bad contracts with no cap penalty-- which has implications for years to come potentially. Lecavalier is the perfect example of a contract that seemed to make sense at the time, still a very valuable player, but do you keep taking that cap hit or try to move in a different direction? Ilitch has more money than Vinik, so it's certainly not an issue of not having money, is it? Point being that Holland hasn't done anything aggressively in years-- no FA signings where he was willing to outbid anyone, no big trades, no offer sheets. What he has done aggressively is shop in the bargain bin department, ending up with guys like Sammy, Coca Cola, and White (who actually was decent with Nick). His love affair with 50,000 year old retread vets is also concerning.

 

[Vladdy84]

Or they're taking advantage of the fact that they can get out bad contracts with no cap penalty-- which has implications for years to come potentially. Lecavalier is the perfect example of a contract that seemed to make sense at the time, still a very valuable player, but do you keep taking that cap hit or try to move in a different direction? Ilitch has more money than Vinik, so it's certainly not an issue of not having money, is it? Point being that Holland hasn't done anything aggressively in years-- no FA signings where he was willing to outbid anyone, no big trades, no offer sheets. What he has done aggressively is shop in the bargain bin department, ending up with guys like Sammy, Coca Cola, and White (who actually was decent with Nick). His love affair with 50,000 year old retread vets is also concerning.

I know this probably isn't the case but I wouldn't be shocked if the Wings have an internal cap. Ilitch has invested 100's of millions into the Tigers lately. And I wouldn't be shocked if his kin are not to keen in doing the same with the Wings. The bargin bin is not an apropos phrase for those players. Sammy, CC, soon to be Cleary and to a lesser extent White have been overpayments IMO.

 

[Heaton]

Or they're taking advantage of the fact that they can get out bad contracts with no cap penalty-- which has implications for years to come potentially. Lecavalier is the perfect example of a contract that seemed to make sense at the time, still a very valuable player, but do you keep taking that cap hit or try to move in a different direction? Ilitch has more money than Vinik, so it's certainly not an issue of not having money, is it? Point being that Holland hasn't done anything aggressively in years-- no FA signings where he was willing to outbid anyone, no big trades, no offer sheets. What he has done aggressively is shop in the bargain bin department, ending up with guys like Sammy, Coca Cola, and White (who actually was decent with Nick). His love affair with 50,000 year old retread vets is also concerning.

Is it possible that Holland truly believes that the right direction is the kids (I realize the whole thing about injuries forced the kids to play et al). Now, I say that fully acknowledging that prior to last season there was no attempt, injuries or otherwise, to work in the kids. But what if the plan is to get the kids here, have a few stop gaps, then when the kids have shown they can handle the spots, then make a move? I'm not defending it, just trying to rationalize what Holland is doing. I think he's doing this all wrong, we have tons of legit prospects, more than we have roster spots. Why not trade them for established talent? Why not pony up for Burns? Or a be extremely aggressive for Yandle or Edler? We heard they were in on Nash and some speculated they even offered the 'best' package. Why isn't it enough?

This team has no distinct direction, I can't explain it, no one can. No one can convince me that Holland believes 1. This team is very good 2. This way of team building will make us contenders again and 3. Not 'overpaying' for some FAs is a bad idea.

Furthermore, does Holland believe we already have our 'big' contracts? Franzen, Z, Datsyuk, Kronwall, Howard. Is that the internal 'cap' for 'big' contracts? I have no idea what he's thinking.

 

[Heaton]

I know this probably isn't the case but I wouldn't be shocked if the Wings have an internal cap. Ilitch has invested 100's of millions into the Tigers lately. And I wouldn't be shocked if his kin are not to keen in doing the same with the Wings. The bargin bin is not an apropos phrase for those players. Sammy, CC, soon to be Cleary and to a lesser extent White have been overpayments IMO.

Even though we were 5m under the cap last year, we're still right up on it. I don't see the internal cap thing happening. Ilitch's super rich, he wants to win every championship all the time.

 

[PullHard]

I've noticed that we are back to beating the "Holland is passive and isn't making our team as competitive as possible" horse again, and I just feel the need to comment on it.

I think the biggest problem we all have / the thing that has had us all arguing for the last ~2 years or so, is that the Wings went from being top contenders with cup-winning mentality (at least that is how we were portrayed through the media) to Holland just stating we want to be in the mix / want to be competitive / any seed can win the cup because the Kings did it one year out of countless years / we were surprised to see our team finish as high as they did / etc.

Why did we quit contending? We had the pieces still in place to take a shot at it in 2010-2012 with Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall as our top 4 D for most of it.

We still had Datsyuk/ Zetterberg / Filppula / Helm as C depth (if they chose to use Flip as a C)

We have Franzen, who can score at will when he decides to show up, and enough depth for bottom 6 wings to be really competitive.

All we needed was to make one or two competitive moves to keep our team deep and stacked, but Holland went dumpster diving for the Whites, Colaiacovos, Samuelssons, etc. of the world.

We are still arguing about it right now. We will hear "prices too high" or "we didn't want to trade away all of our ____ to make that deal happen" , etc.

I'm just curious as to why it happened as early as it did. I think we had another cup run in that window. Now we are all seeing the road that is ahead of this team, and it is youth and cheap depth to bridge the gaps until our prospects are ready. But I don't understand why we weren't going for it when we had Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg all on one team. We had the horses for it. Does anyone have any insight into this? Because I think this is the thing that keeps nagging at users like RWN, Zetterberg4Captain, myself, and anyone else who is turning more towards an anti-Holland stance. I get that our team isn't as good NOW, because Lidstrom and Stuart are gone, we lost a lot of skill up front, etc. and are getting our kids feet wet and relying on them to carry a decent chunk of the load, but a few years back we still had a good chance to be top contenders, and we just watched it slip away.

It still frustrates me, and I think it is what will cement Holland as passive and cheap and past-his-prime on message boards, even if it isn't necessarily true. It was true for a few offseasons, and it still stings for this fan.

So basically - why didn't we continue to go for it? Our cupboard is very stocked, trading a few pieces away wouldn't have killed us. Trading away a 1st wouldn't kill us, heck, we gave one up for Kyle Quincey. I think we had one last REAL shot at a cup with that roster, and we didn't shoot for it. That is my biggest beef with Holland. I could care less if we are missing out on the big fish this summer or the next few, we won't be shooting for the cup these next few years realistically.

edit: sorry if that was rambly and kinda OT

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Or they're taking advantage of the fact that they can get out bad contracts with no cap penalty-- which has implications for years to come potentially. Lecavalier is the perfect example of a contract that seemed to make sense at the time, still a very valuable player, but do you keep taking that cap hit or try to move in a different direction? Ilitch has more money than Vinik, so it's certainly not an issue of not having money, is it? Point being that Holland hasn't done anything aggressively in years-- no FA signings where he was willing to outbid anyone, no big trades, no offer sheets. What he has done aggressively is shop in the bargain bin department, ending up with guys like Sammy, Coca Cola, and White (who actually was decent with Nick). His love affair with 50,000 year old retread vets is also concerning.

WHAT MOVES WERE THERE FOR HOLLAND TO MAKE?! Give me a list of players and trades and every year they could have occured. All of them. If you say "He should have resigned," I will slap you. I doubt you will come up with a significant list of anything.

 

[Heaton]

WHAT MOVES WERE THERE FOR HOLLAND TO MAKE?! Give me a list of players and trades and every year they could have occured. All of them. If you say "He should have resigned," I will slap you. I doubt you will come up with a significant list of anything.

So, your point of contention is that because none of us may have intimate knowledge of possible moves that could've happened, but didn't, we should just accept the fact that Holland's hands were and are tied and is incapable of making moves because it's impossible?

If it is impossible for Holland to improve the team, what are we doing here?

 

[WingsOverAvs]

why didn't we continue to go for it?

I think part of it was the impending work stoppage. Holland didnt want to put the team in the same position teams like PHI and BOS and PIT and VAN where they went out and spent money, a new CBA was drafted, and now teams are scrambling to get under the cap ceiling.

 

[Syckle78]

Even though we were 5m under the cap last year, we're still right up on it. I don't see the internal cap thing happening. Ilitch's super rich, he wants to win every championship all the time.

Yea five million or so doesn't mean anything to Illitch. If we had an internal cap it would be obvious from the fact it would be a number significantly under the cap. I try think what the actual issue is Illitch used to be more focused on the Wings and an urgency to win started at the very top. Seems like the complacency and total lack of risk taking started with Illitch going ape **** for a world series.

 

[Vladdy84]

I've noticed that we are back to beating the "Holland is passive and isn't making our team as competitive as possible" horse again, and I just feel the need to comment on it.

I think the biggest problem we all have / the thing that has had us all arguing for the last ~2 years or so, is that the Wings went from being top contenders with cup-winning mentality (at least that is how we were portrayed through the media) to Holland just stating we want to be in the mix / want to be competitive / any seed can win the cup because the Kings did it one year out of countless years / we were surprised to see our team finish as high as they did / etc.

Why did we quit contending? We had the pieces still in place to take a shot at it in 2010-2012 with Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall as our top 4 D for most of it.

We still had Datsyuk/ Zetterberg / Filppula / Helm as C depth (if they chose to use Flip as a C)

We have Franzen, who can score at will when he decides to show up, and enough depth for bottom 6 wings to be really competitive.

All we needed was to make one or two competitive moves to keep our team deep and stacked, but Holland went dumpster diving for the Whites, Colaiacovos, Samuelssons, etc. of the world.

We are still arguing about it right now. We will hear "prices too high" or "we didn't want to trade away all of our ____ to make that deal happen" , etc.

I'm just curious as to why it happened as early as it did. I think we had another cup run in that window. Now we are all seeing the road that is ahead of this team, and it is youth and cheap depth to bridge the gaps until our prospects are ready. But I don't understand why we weren't going for it when we had Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg all on one team. We had the horses for it. Does anyone have any insight into this? Because I think this is the thing that keeps nagging at users like RWN, Zetterberg4Captain, myself, and anyone else who is turning more towards an anti-Holland stance. I get that our team isn't as good NOW, because Lidstrom and Stuart are gone, we lost a lot of skill up front, etc. and are getting our kids feet wet and relying on them to carry a decent chunk of the load, but a few years back we still had a good chance to be top contenders, and we just watched it slip away.

It still frustrates me, and I think it is what will cement Holland as passive and cheap and past-his-prime on message boards, even if it isn't necessarily true. It was true for a few offseasons, and it still stings for this fan.

So basically - why didn't we continue to go for it? Our cupboard is very stocked, trading a few pieces away wouldn't have killed us. Trading away a 1st wouldn't kill us, heck, we gave one up for Kyle Quincey. I think we had one last REAL shot at a cup with that roster, and we didn't shoot for it. That is my biggest beef with Holland. I could care less if we are missing out on the big fish this summer or the next few, we won't be shooting for the cup these next few years realistically.

edit: sorry if that was rambly and kinda OT

I feel ya man. One of my biggest issues is the message we get from Holland. Same old song. My biggest gripe is that Pavel is a once in a generation player. Z isn't quite that, but not far behind. Holland's words don't match up with his actions. If Ken was real with the fanbase and stuck to it. I wouldn't be that upset. But he keeps bringing back garbage at inflated prices. Doesn't bring up the youth when they should. And when he has a chance to right wrongs? Buy's out CC(not needed), keeps Sammy. Yada yada yada. If we got a little more explanation from Kenny, there wouldn't be so many gripes.

I rambled as well.

 

[SportsballChic]

So, your point of contention is that because none of us may have intimate knowledge of possible moves that could've happened, but didn't, we should just accept the fact that Holland's hands were and are tied and is incapable of making moves because it's impossible?

If it is impossible for Holland to improve the team, what are we doing here?

Boo-yah, Heaton wins. This. X1000 and in every single thread on every single topic.

"Don't talk YOU WEREN'T THERE!" lol.

Plus, lets be real: how many other teams signed impact FA and made deadline deals the last two years? Somehow Holland was different than all those GMs right, it just wasn't fair was it? lol

Finally; if you can't see how buying out Danny Briere lead directly to Philly having the money to sign Vinny... well, there's not much I can do for you Jman.

 

[PullHard]

I think part of it was the impending work stoppage. Holland didnt want to put the team in the same position teams like PHI and BOS and PIT and VAN where they went out and spent money, a new CBA was drafted, and now teams are scrambling to get under the cap ceiling.

That doesn't put me at ease, TBH. If you have a realistic chance at winning the cup, you load up and go for it. As much as I think Pittsburgh overpaid for Morrow and Murray, I respect Shero for seeing this past season as a prime opportunity to load up before Malkin's and Letang's raises start to dry up their depth. If you have to, you unload, like Chicago did after 2010. They've already won a cup since, it isn't the end of the world.

 

[Vladdy84]

WHAT MOVES WERE THERE FOR HOLLAND TO MAKE?! Give me a list of players and trades and every year they could have occured. All of them. If you say "He should have resigned," I will slap you. I doubt you will come up with a significant list of anything.

Semin.

Problem is we don't exactly know what offers were made for Nash etc.

Offersheet for Subban.

The one break I'll give Holland is that I firmly believe teams ask for more from the Wings. Just my 2 cents. That's one reason I believe some deals were not made.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Boo-yah, Heaton wins. This. X1000 and in every single thread on every single topic.

"Don't talk YOU WEREN'T THERE!" lol.

Plus, lets be real: how many other teams signed impact FA and made deadline deals the last two years? Somehow Holland was different than all those GMs right, it just wasn't fair was it? lol

Finally; if you can't see how buying out Danny Briere lead directly to Philly having the money to sign Vinny... well, there's not much I can do for you Jman.

They are at the cap limit and can no longer spend any more money for the meantime 'till they can IR Pronger. When they bought out Briere, it was to make room to sign Mark Streit to a ridiculous overpayment.

 

[Frk It]

I've noticed that we are back to beating the "Holland is passive and isn't making our team as competitive as possible" horse again, and I just feel the need to comment on it.

I think the biggest problem we all have / the thing that has had us all arguing for the last ~2 years or so, is that the Wings went from being top contenders with cup-winning mentality (at least that is how we were portrayed through the media) to Holland just stating we want to be in the mix / want to be competitive / any seed can win the cup because the Kings did it one year out of countless years / we were surprised to see our team finish as high as they did / etc.

Why did we quit contending? We had the pieces still in place to take a shot at it in 2010-2012 with Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall as our top 4 D for most of it.

We still had Datsyuk/ Zetterberg / Filppula / Helm as C depth (if they chose to use Flip as a C)

We have Franzen, who can score at will when he decides to show up, and enough depth for bottom 6 wings to be really competitive.

All we needed was to make one or two competitive moves to keep our team deep and stacked, but Holland went dumpster diving for the Whites, Colaiacovos, Samuelssons, etc. of the world.

We are still arguing about it right now. We will hear "prices too high" or "we didn't want to trade away all of our ____ to make that deal happen" , etc.

I'm just curious as to why it happened as early as it did. I think we had another cup run in that window. Now we are all seeing the road that is ahead of this team, and it is youth and cheap depth to bridge the gaps until our prospects are ready. But I don't understand why we weren't going for it when we had Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg all on one team. We had the horses for it. Does anyone have any insight into this? Because I think this is the thing that keeps nagging at users like RWN, Zetterberg4Captain, myself, and anyone else who is turning more towards an anti-Holland stance. I get that our team isn't as good NOW, because Lidstrom and Stuart are gone, we lost a lot of skill up front, etc. and are getting our kids feet wet and relying on them to carry a decent chunk of the load, but a few years back we still had a good chance to be top contenders, and we just watched it slip away.

It still frustrates me, and I think it is what will cement Holland as passive and cheap and past-his-prime on message boards, even if it isn't necessarily true. It was true for a few offseasons, and it still stings for this fan.

So basically - why didn't we continue to go for it? Our cupboard is very stocked, trading a few pieces away wouldn't have killed us. Trading away a 1st wouldn't kill us, heck, we gave one up for Kyle Quincey. I think we had one last REAL shot at a cup with that roster, and we didn't shoot for it. That is my biggest beef with Holland. I could care less if we are missing out on the big fish this summer or the next few, we won't be shooting for the cup these next few years realistically.

edit: sorry if that was rambly and kinda OT

I know someone is going to mention it, so I'll just go ahead and get it out of the way.
But we definitely should have made room to keep Hossa. He is such a better player than any player we have right now after Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Not a coincidence he has won 2 Cups since he played with us last. Guy is a big time producer, and a world-class talent.

Plain and simple though, but Holland never gambles. Never goes for big risk/reward moves. Always just goes for bargain free agents and very minor trades.

 

[Vladdy84]

I know someone is going to mention it, so I'll just go ahead and get it out of the way.
But we definitely should have made room to keep Hossa. He is such a better player than any player we have right now after Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Not a coincidence he has won 2 Cups since he played with us last. Guy is a big time producer, and a world-class talent.

Plain and simple though, but Holland never gambles. Never goes for big risk/reward moves. Always just goes for bargain free agents and very minor trades.

Hossa was a big mistake. Going back to the Pavel issue. Ken Holland has DONE NOTHING since Hossa left to help out Pavel. Let's be honest, I know he was hurt. Hossa was pretty much a non-factor for the Hawks in their 2nd cup win.

 

[SportsballChic]

They are at the cap limit and can no longer spend any more money for the meantime 'till they can IR Pronger. When they bought out Briere, it was to make room to sign Mark Streit to a ridiculous overpayment.

*sigh*

The point is "they have big contracts to buy out so they can then sign big contracts. We buy out 2.5 million worth of Carlo because that is all we sign. Even our BUYOUTS suck because of how we sign FA".

I give up...

 

[PullHard]

I know someone is going to mention it, so I'll just go ahead and get it out of the way.
But we definitely should have made room to keep Hossa. He is such a better player than any player we have right now after Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Not a coincidence he has won 2 Cups since he played with us last. Guy is a big time producer, and a world-class talent.

Plain and simple though, but Holland never gambles. Never goes for big risk/reward moves. Always just goes for bargain free agents and very minor trades.

Yes, I agree. It seems obvious to me that you can find 3rd and 4th line guys fairly easily and cheaply, but it is hard to find Hossa type talents. But Holland 10/10 times will keep guys like Hudler, Cleary, Bertuzzi, etc. instead of the big fish. I guess it makes life easier on Babcock to have a bit more depth? But if we have Hossa we are likely scoring more often / not worrying about scoring as much as we are currently. I donno, I can't quite rationalize it.

 

[WingsOverAvs]

That doesn't put me at ease, TBH. If you have a realistic chance at winning the cup, you load up and go for it. As much as I think Pittsburgh overpaid for Morrow and Murray, I respect Shero for seeing this past season as a prime opportunity to load up before Malkin's and Letang's raises start to dry up their depth. If you have to, you unload, like Chicago did after 2010. They've already won a cup since, it isn't the end of the world.

We definitely disagree here....I thought what Shero did was laughable and set the team back a few years

 

[PullHard]

We definitely disagree here....I thought what Shero did was laughable and set the team back a few years

I criticized him badly for it too, but his team is nearly all in their prime and isn't about to drop off just because they traded away Joe Morrow and a 1st. They have an amazing pool of prospect D behind Morrow and guys like Bennett who will likely have a long, successful career who isn't even really established as an NHLer yet. They could very easily afford to shoot for the moon this past year. I'm not suggesting we give up all of that, though. But at least like one of our okay-good prospects and a 2nd for a legitimate scoring threat in 2010 or 2011 would've been an understandable and realistic move. I don't think any of us would've been jumping off of a cliff because we traded away a player like Tatar and a 2nd back then if it gave a 1st/ 2nd line type forward, even if it was only for a season or two.