Speculation: Predicting who cracks the open roster spots

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
If Duclair is a ****show and not producing and doing anything positive, the contract/games played means nothing.

He's gone.

You never sacrifice wins for the sake of a clause and an issue six years down the road.

Sather and AV did their part.

Now it's up to Duclair to prove them right.

If he sucks, he's going back to the Q or Team Canada.
 

Doctyl

Play-ins Manager
Jan 25, 2011
23,267
7,047
Bofflol
Well yea if he sucks and doesn't deserve to be on the team send him back. If he's good but not spectacular, I see no reason to send him back.
 

Beacon

Embrace the tank
May 28, 2007
13,676
1,454
Honestly, I think 40 games is more important. After that, regardless of whether Tony D ends the season with the Rangers, he becomes a UFA a year earlier at age 26. The contract issue is solved, the 40 game number is set in stone.

Whether he becomes a UFA when Lundqvist is 39 or 40 is less relevant than whether he can help us win the Cup this year. When Lundqvist retires or is old, our window of opportunity will be closed. We need to go for it right now.


Well yea if he sucks and doesn't deserve to be on the team send him back. If he's good but not spectacular, I see no reason to send him back.

If he can be a quality third liner, you take him right now and worry about 2021 in the future. A speedy third liner means a lot to a team.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Whether he becomes a UFA when Lundqvist is 39 or 40 is less relevant than whether he can help us win the Cup this year. When Lundqvist retires or is old, our window of opportunity will be closed. We need to go for it right now.




If he can be a quality third liner, you take him right now and worry about 2021 in the future. A speedy third liner means a lot to a team.

He'll have to do what Hagelin did in 2012 to stay -- put up points.

Playing well and not scoring won't cut it. He's on this team to make plays and score.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
As for Hayes, I liked what I saw.

Big centers and power forwards take time to develop. I can go on and on naming late bloomers who were worth the wait.

Strength up the middle makes you a powerhouse----center, defense-goalie. In fact, you can be a powerhouse with centers and a star d-man with no goalie.

You will never be dominant without a star center. You might even need two.

Look at the last 40 years of Cup winners:

2014/2012-Kopitar/Carter
2013/2010-Toews
2011-Krejci/Bergeron
2009-Crosby/Malkin
2008-Zetterberg
2007-Getzlaf
2006-Staal
2004-Richards
2003- Trap
2002-Fedorov/Yzerman
2001-Sakic/Forsberg
2000-Trap
1999-Modano/Nieuwendyk
1997/1998-Yzerman/Fedorov
1996-Sakic/Forsberg
1995-Trap
1994-Messier
1993-Muller
1991/1992-Crybaby Sr./Francis
1990-Messier
1989-Nieuwendyk/Gilmour
1984/85/87/88-Gretzky-Messier
1986-Smith
1980-1984-Trottier/Goring
1976-1979-Lemaire (didn't matter)
1974-75-Clarke/Macleish

Only the sucker-ass, trap-happy, destroy-hockey Devils won Cups without a dominant center.

That's why moving MSL to center is a joke, even for a month.

That's like asking Melo to play point guard or JPP to play linebacker or Texeira to play SS.

Two fundamentally different positions which takes years to master just one.

MSL didn't even play center at UVM. Eric Perrin did.
 

Fugazy

Brick by Brick
Jun 1, 2014
9,396
1,924
New York
As for Hayes, I liked what I saw.

Big centers and power forwards take time to develop. I can go on and on naming late bloomers who were worth the wait.

Strength up the middle makes you a powerhouse----center, defense-goalie. In fact, you can be a powerhouse with centers and a star d-man with no goalie.

You will never be dominant without a star center. You might even need two.

Look at the last 40 years of Cup winners:

2014/2012-Kopitar/Carter
2013/2010-Toews
2011-Krejci/Bergeron
2009-Crosby/Malkin
2008-Zetterberg
2007-Getzlaf
2006-Staal
2004-Richards
2003- Trap
2002-Fedorov/Yzerman
2001-Sakic/Forsberg
2000-Trap
1999-Modano/Nieuwendyk
1997/1998-Yzerman/Fedorov
1996-Sakic/Forsberg
1995-Trap
1994-Messier
1993-Muller
1991/1992-Crybaby Sr./Francis
1990-Messier
1989-Nieuwendyk/Gilmour
1984/85/87/88-Gretzky-Messier
1986-Smith
1980-1984-Trottier/Goring
1976-1979-Lemaire (didn't matter)
1974-75-Clarke/Macleish

Only the sucker-ass, trap-happy, destroy-hockey Devils won Cups without a dominant center.

That's why moving MSL to center is a joke, even for a month.

That's like asking Melo to play point guard or JPP to play linebacker or Texeira to play SS.

Two fundamentally different positions which takes years to master just one.

MSL didn't even play center at UVM. Eric Perrin did.

I agree at this point. Really just not in favor of having MSL switch over to center even if it's for a limited time.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
People will say "Jesus it's just temporary"

But to me it points out a fundamental flaw in the organization that you have to use a 40-year-old winger as a stopgap.

That's why I said the farm was poor. Chicago is a powerhouse and since they have the best overall center in the game (IMO) they can plug in rookies like TT or anybody and still remain elite.

Stepan has potential to be that bonafide No. 1 but I'd like to see them really focus on big pure centers with mean streaks the next two drafts.

Just make the positional an organization strength is all I ask. Getting Hayes was a start.
 

SupersonicMonkey*

Guest
I agree with GWOW on the center thing, its hard to argue against.

Stepan, Miller, Hayes is a good start, though.

Iverson and Nieves have potential.

It's hard to find and draft high-end centers when you don't have first round picks. Rangers have been very good at identifying and acquiring talent despite not having those first round picks.

Duclair and Buchnevich are high-end on the wing. There is also Haggerty and Fast.

Skjei on defense.

A priority this season should be not losing anymore first round picks, because we do need to draft that one elite level center soon.
 

Riche16

McCready guitar god
Aug 13, 2008
12,845
8,036
The Dreaded Middle
I agree with GWOW on the center thing, its hard to argue against.

Stepan, Miller, Hayes is a good start, though.

Iverson and Nieves have potential.

It's hard to find and draft high-end centers when you don't have first round picks. Rangers have been very good at identifying and acquiring talent despite not having those first round picks.

Duclair and Buchnevich are high-end on the wing. There is also Haggerty and Fast.

Skjei on defense.

A priority this season should be not losing anymore first round picks, because we do need to draft that one elite level center soon.

Well then, we better tank next season... because unless Hank gets injured I don't see how this team will draft anything other than 2/3rd line tweeners for the foreseeable future.
 

Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
29,060
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Charlotte, NC
Well then, we better tank next season... because unless Hank gets injured I don't see how this team will draft anything other than 2/3rd line tweeners for the foreseeable future.

You can draft elite centers later than the very early picks, but that's mostly luck (despite scouting departments claims otherwise)
 

SupersonicMonkey*

Guest
Well then, we better tank next season... because unless Hank gets injured I don't see how this team will draft anything other than 2/3rd line tweeners for the foreseeable future.

Where do you get this from what I posted...did you read it?

Duclair and Buchnevich are "tweeners"?

Hayes and Miller are "tweeners"?

I really hate having to repeat myself. They have been able to identify and acquire solid talent despite not having a 1st in recent years. But a priority should be keeping future 1sts so they can draft a center with elite tools.

How does that relate to "better tank"? If they do their homework they can identify a center in the 20+ range.
 

Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
29,060
10,749
Charlotte, NC
Where do you get this from what I posted...did you read it?

Duclair and Buchnevich are "tweeners"?

Hayes and Miller are "tweeners"?

I really hate having to repeat myself. They have been able to identify and acquire solid talent despite not having a 1st in recent years. But a priority should be keeping future 1sts so they can draft a center with elite tools.

How does that relate to "better tank"? If they do their homework they can identify a center in the 20+ range.

Let's talk results, not potential. The Rangers haven't drafted and then developed a top line offensive player since Marc Savard and the one before that was Alex Kovalev. Except MAYBE Stepan.

I'm not saying they can't be those players in the future. I'm saying wait to call those players more than tweeners until they're more than tweeners. Meanwhile, keep drafting and try to improve that aspect of our system.
 

SupersonicMonkey*

Guest
You can draft elite centers later than the very early picks, but that's mostly luck (despite scouting departments claims otherwise)

Not sure its luck. They could target players with the correct mentality and IQ, work ethic on and off the ice, and a skill set that can translate to the pro game.

An issue a lot of teams have is gushing over raw skills. If the mental aspect isn't there, all the skill in the world won't matter. Look at the Oilers.

Rangers have been successful identifying players with the mental aspect. Sometimes players can overcome definciencies in their skill with hard work.

"Boom or bust" picks are just that. And more often than not, they bust.

"Safe" picks have a higher probability of becoming something.

Is it best to always try to get NHL players out of the draft? Or to swing for the fences?

To me Kreider, Miller, and Skjei were never boom or bust. "Raw raw raw" some said about Kreider, and i always disagreed. He always had a high IQ and the mental makeup to put the work in, listen to his coaches, and work toward being the player he can be. Raw is Rob Schremp. Natural talent out the ass. But absolutely no work ethic, no IQ.

IQ includes knowing what you are, listening to coaches, accepting roles, applying what is being taught, working hard to improve.

Duke isn't raw in that sense, either.

To me, there is a difference between an unfinished, developing player, and a raw player with no capacity to learn and grow as an individual.

Some players "get it" others don't. Some don't and wake up (Kristo) and some don't (Ethan Werek).

All i am trying to say is, they can identify and target players that will do what ever it takes to make it and stick, if they do their homework not just watching them play, but researching their family life and off ice social life and pin point psychological indications if they will go further as a player or red flags if they will hit a wall.

Talent evaluati9n, drafting, and scouting is more than just looking at good hands and shooting. So to speak.
 

SupersonicMonkey*

Guest
Let's talk results, not potential. The Rangers haven't drafted and then developed a top line offensive player since Marc Savard and the one before that was Alex Kovalev. Except MAYBE Stepan.

I'm not saying they can't be those players in the future. I'm saying wait to call those players more than tweeners until they're more than tweeners. Meanwhile, keep drafting and try to improve that aspect of our system.

That isn't unfair. I'm not going to refute that.

I believe the Rangers, for most of that time didn't really care about drafting, it was more something they had to do. And maybe didn't put as much money/effort into scouting as they should have.

In the last decade they have built and developed a system that has produced many quality NHL players that have recently contributed to success late in the season.

Time will tell if this latest crop will produce more core pieces.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Well then, we better tank next season... because unless Hank gets injured I don't see how this team will draft anything other than 2/3rd line tweeners for the foreseeable future.

Bergeron
ROR
Zetts
Datsyuk
Krejci
Stastny
Backes
Pavelski

It can be done without the lottery. Cheaper too.

I think Stepan is a good guy to build around but he needs an equal.
 

SupersonicMonkey*

Guest
Bergeron
ROR
Zetts
Datsyuk
Krejci
Stastny
Backes
Pavelski

It can be done without the lottery. Cheaper too.

I think Stepan is a good guy to build around but he needs an equal.

Hopefully J.T. grows into that. The skills, strength, and work ethic are there. Just a matter of a young player developing consistency.

I don't buy the Miller attitude mythos. He was a leader on U-18 and U-20 gold medal teams. Showed up to camp before maybe anyone else.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Hopefully J.T. grows into that. The skills, strength, and work ethic are there. Just a matter of a young player developing consistency.

I don't buy the Miller attitude mythos. He was a leader on U-18 and U-20 gold medal teams. Showed up to camp before maybe anyone else.

Even if it's true it's fixable.

I think he's super competitive and wants to do more, and probably thinks/knows he can contribute and just got frustrated with rookie protocol.

He's got his shot now. Door's wide open.
 

ltrangerfan

Registered User
Jul 24, 2010
1,131
11
Elite centers can be picked lower down in the draft.

However, the odds of picking an elite center increases with selections at the upper end of the draft.
 

Brooklyn Ranger

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
9,462
298
Brooklyn, of course
Whether he becomes a UFA when Lundqvist is 39 or 40 is less relevant than whether he can help us win the Cup this year. When Lundqvist retires or is old, our window of opportunity will be closed. We need to go for it right now.

Wasn't suggesting the Rangers send him back after game 39--the decision will be made long before that, if it's necessary. As I said in another post, there's no reason to think that this decision has to be made in 9 or 10 games.
 

Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
29,060
10,749
Charlotte, NC
Not sure its luck. They could target players with the correct mentality and IQ, work ethic on and off the ice, and a skill set that can translate to the pro game.

That stuff is exactly why it's luck. You just don't know how a person will transition from teenager to adult. And nothing about a person's background is necessarily going to clue you in. I mean, perfect example on one end of the spectrum is Manny Malhotra. The kid was drafted having all the intangibles and a reasonable projection that he would continue to be a hard worker and great teammate when he got older. But the offensive skill set, despite him working at it, never developed beyond where he was on draft day. Same thing for Brian Boyle. And there are countless examples of players on the other end of that spectrum. It's easy to say, in hindsight, for any one of them that it was obvious this was how it would turn out. In most cases, it wasn't obvious when the player was 17-18.

How do you accurately project what a player will be at 25 when you watch him play at 17? How do you accurately project what type of man he will be when you talk to him at 17? I was a totally different person after those 8 years, as I'm sure most of us were. With a few exceptions, this is nothing but luck that players turn out a certain way. The best you can do is create an environment, as an organization, to help foster their growth. The rest is luck.
 

bl02

Registered User
Jan 13, 2014
32,325
22,386
Hey guys apologize in advance if I'm posting this in the wrong thread but anyone have an idea of the lines for game 1? Or even your opinion or who you would like to see on which line?
I'm looking forward to seeing brassard paired with zucc and kreider. Would be even a better version of last years line with pouliot.
 

Thirty One

Safe is safe.
Dec 28, 2003
28,981
24,354
Hey guys apologize in advance if I'm posting this in the wrong thread but anyone have an idea of the lines for game 1? Or even your opinion or who you would like to see on which line?
I'm looking forward to seeing brassard paired with zucc and kreider. Would be even a better version of last years line with pouliot.
Lines from practice today:

Kreider-St. Louis-Nash
Hagelin-Brassard-Zuccarello
Duclair-Miller-Stempniak
Glass-Moore-Fast

With St. Louis and Miller at center, Brassard figures to get a lot more defensive zone starts. Figure that's why it's Hagelin, not Kreider, on is left.
 

bl02

Registered User
Jan 13, 2014
32,325
22,386
Lines from practice today:

Kreider-St. Louis-Nash
Hagelin-Brassard-Zuccarello
Duclair-Miller-Stempniak
Glass-Moore-Fast

With St. Louis and Miller at center, Brassard figures to get a lot more defensive zone starts. Figure that's why it's Hagelin, not Kreider, on is left.

Thanks for the quick reply.
Awesome to see the lines on "paper" like that. Usually on top of it but didnt see it posted anywhere so thanks :yo:

I understand the reasoning behind not putting kreider with Brass but just a little concerned if hagelin is a good fit for that line? I know he has speed but not sure about the size necessary to battle and retrieve the puck for the playmakers on that line (brass and zucc).
 

Zil

Shrug
Feb 9, 2006
5,558
42
Hagelin's board work has never been in question. It's his ability to do things with the puck once he gets it that holds him back from being a star.
 

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