Post-Game Talk: Pre-Season GM 6: Sharks def. Canucks 2-1 (McCann)

[Vtownfan]

Overall a strong showing by the B squad against what was basically the Sharks opening night line up.

Hutton-Biega were a very strong pairing. Fast, good under the Sharks forecheck pressure. Hutton's end to end rush is going to get all the talk, but he made numerous little plays that were just crazy good. A slight move here, a quick fake there that threw the fore checkers off and enabled him to smoothly transition the puck.

McCann was solid again. He certainly looks like he belongs. He plays a pretty good 200ft game for a young kid and certainly can shoot the puck. Nice vision to set up Vey for a grade A chance to tie the game. To bad it was Vey he passed to.

Virtanen, not ready. Physically he is, but his game needs work. Vey-Virtanen-Baertschi was over matched most of the night. Out shot and out played Points for Jake for the physical play that caused the turn over to McCann. Laughs on how hard Garrett was trying to sell that the puck deflected of Virtanen's stick to McCann to try and give the kid an assist.

Baesrtschi has in no way played his way into the top 6. He is to small to be bottom 6. Not sure what the Canucks do with this kid now.

Vey another problem. Given every opportunity to make something happen and not much there. His line was soundly outplayed and he just looks lost out there. Like he can see his chance slipping away and doesn't know what to do.

Props to the banger line. Cracknell looked at home between Prust and Dorsett and later in the game they were playing like you want a 4th line to play. Banging bodies and creating opportunities off the forecheck. They got more ice than that line normally would given the line up tonight.

Miller- His best outing so far this preseason. Still don't think he is seeing the puck as well as he would like, but pretty much exactly the solid play you would expect from a league average goalie making around 3million a year...oh wait.


My send downs after tonight's game would be Grenier and Virtanen. Vey and Baertschi are right now the 13th and 14th forwards possible try and sneak them through waivers.

 

[tantalum]

Virtanen, not ready. Physically he is, but his game needs work. Vey-Virtanen-Baertschi was over matched most of the night. Out shot and out played Points for Jake for the physical play that caused the turn over to McCann. Laughs on how hard Garrett was trying to sell that the puck deflected of Virtanen's stick to McCann to try and give the kid an assist.

....

My send downs after tonight's game would be Grenier and Virtanen. Vey and Baertschi are right now the 13th and 14th forwards possible try and sneak them through waivers.

I only listened to the first couple of periods but it seemed to me that of the three guys on that line, Virtanen had the best night.

I don't think Vey needs to stick around for anything. He's not a NHL player. Baertschi they will keep around because they have to. They have made their plans around Baertschi being a top 6 threat. They don't want to pressure the kids but they basically hung the bulk of the offensive success on his shoulders lol. Right now he doesn't even look like a NHL player let alone a consistent top 6 offensive threat. Oozes talent but you don't cause the opposition much trouble even as the most talented player in the world if you constantly confine yourself to the perimeter.

What I heard (and am reading) I actually find it encouraging that Virtanen was "OK" against such a veteran laden SJ roster. Give him the final two games and see if he can catch up to the speed of the game some more. My daily repeat....for guys like Virtanen or McCann who have so much more room to improve it isn't all about where they are now but where they project to be after 40 games.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Botchford of the past three years is not the same Botchford that people still perceive him to be.

He writes good ****.

I've been highly, highly critical of him in the past, and I still have my moments where he leaves me grimacing.

But his post-game reads (the Provies) are a game-night guilty pleasure for me. He's found his niche and he's doing it well.

 

[fancouver]

I only listened to the first couple of periods but it seemed to me that of the three guys on that line, Virtanen had the best night.

I don't think Vey needs to stick around for anything. He's not a NHL player. Baertschi they will keep around because they have to. They have made their plans around Baertschi being a top 6 threat. They don't want to pressure the kids but they basically hung the bulk of the offensive success on his shoulders lol. Right now he doesn't even look like a NHL player let alone a consistent top 6 offensive threat. Oozes talent but you don't cause the opposition much trouble even as the most talented player in the world if you constantly confine yourself to the perimeter.

What I heard (and am reading) I actually find it encouraging that Virtanen was "OK" against such a veteran laden SJ roster. Give him the final two games and see if he can catch up to the speed of the game some more. My daily repeat....for guys like Virtanen or McCann who have so much more room to improve it isn't all about where they are now but where they project to be after 40 games.

I'm not pointing to anyone in particular, but I can't help but think some people correlate "lack of points" with "lack of hockey IQ". The lack of hockey IQ seems to be Virtanen's biggest downfall, and even still, it's not as bad as exaggerated on these boards.

That McCann goal would not have happened had Virtanen not read the play and check Dillion. It was a smart play; he kept the puck in that led to the goal. It forced San Jose to dump the puck in their own zone.

It's also nice to see some of the veteran players looking out for Virtanen now. That can lead to a lot of turnovers. You can see them get rid of the puck faster when Virtanen is first in the forecheck.

 

[Vtownfan]

I'm not pointing to anyone in particular, but I can't help but think some people correlate "lack of points" with "lack of hockey IQ". The lack of hockey IQ seems to be Virtanen's biggest downfall, and even still, it's not as bad as exaggerated on these boards.

That McCann goal would not have happened had Virtanen not read the play and check Dillion. It was a smart play; he kept the puck in that led to the goal. It forced San Jose to dump the puck in their own zone.

It's also nice to see some of the veteran players looking out for Virtanen now. That can lead to a lot of turnovers. You can see them get rid of the puck faster when Virtanen is first in the forecheck.

Virtanen is very good at what he does well for sure. Kid is top of the league fast, he blew past the Sj D a couple times. And he is a hitter for sure. Where he is lacking is the defensive side of the game. That line was a constant fire drill in their own zone last night.

Why I would send the kid down is more for what they need from him as a #6 pick in the future. They need this kid to be at least the 2RW if not 1RW. What they don't need is to have him slogging on the 4th line learning to be Dorsett or Prust. He would get top line minutes on the Hitmen and probably top 6 minutes on the WJC team as well.

It comes down to do the Canucks want him to be Raffi Torres or Cam Neely?

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

I've been highly, highly critical of him in the past, and I still have my moments where he leaves me grimacing.

But his post-game reads (the Provies) are a game-night guilty pleasure for me. He's found his niche and he's doing it well.

Maybe his more recent stints with TSN imparted some much needed integrity to his work.

Anywho, from the sound of things, Baertschi may be yet another failed "find", though preseason isn't the best way of evaluating playing already in the NHL.

 

[tantalum]

Where he is lacking is the defensive side of the game. That line was a constant fire drill in their own zone last night.

Sure he does, most young players do. Horvat was a rare exception. The fire drill was expected...Vey is terrible on that side of the puck and so is Baertschi. Now alongside two good defensive players the deficiencies may be mitigated. BUt it is a clear and major weakness.

Why I would send the kid down is more for what they need from him as a #6 pick in the future. They need this kid to be at least the 2RW if not 1RW. What they don't need is to have him slogging on the 4th line learning to be Dorsett or Prust. He would get top line minutes on the Hitmen and probably top 6 minutes on the WJC team as well.

I know another year in junior is never harmful. It can be very helpful. But people forget that guys like Dorsett and Prust while lower end NHL players are better than almost every player in junior. You have to make the evaluation of whether you feel he is better off learning what he needs to learn under the discipline of an NHl team or if he can do the same with a junior team. I'm honestly not sure what the best spot is. I don't like some of what i hear about the Hitmen that it does concern me a bit.

It comes down to do the Canucks want him to be Raffi Torres or Cam Neely?

Spending the year in junior or in the NHL with lower icetime isn't going to turn a Cam Neely into a Raffi Torres. And certainly Cam starting on the lower lines in Vancouver didn't turn him into Raffi.

 

[Vtownfan]

I know another year in junior is never harmful. It can be very helpful. But people forget that guys like Dorsett and Prust while lower end NHL players are better than almost every player in junior. You have to make the evaluation of whether you feel he is better off learning what he needs to learn under the discipline of an NHl team or if he can do the same with a junior team. I'm honestly not sure what the best spot is. I don't like some of what i hear about the Hitmen that it does concern me a bit.

Spending the year in junior or in the NHL with lower icetime isn't going to turn a Cam Neely into a Raffi Torres. And certainly Cam starting on the lower lines in Vancouver didn't turn him into Raffi.

LOL It almost did. Neely never got a shot with the Canucks playing behind Smyl and Tanti. He only blossomed when give ice and opportunity with the Bruins.

Canucks need to stop turning offensive prospects into 4th line grinders.

 

[I am toxic]

I'm not pointing to anyone in particular, but I can't help but think some people correlate "lack of points" with "lack of hockey IQ". The lack of hockey IQ seems to be Virtanen's biggest downfall, and even still, it's not as bad as exaggerated on these boards.

That McCann goal would not have happened had Virtanen not read the play and check Dillion. It was a smart play; he kept the puck in that led to the goal. It forced San Jose to dump the puck in their own zone.

It's also nice to see some of the veteran players looking out for Virtanen now. That can lead to a lot of turnovers. You can see them get rid of the puck faster when Virtanen is first in the forecheck.

This. 100% agree with everything in this post. He did the same thing the previous game, forcing turnovers on the forecheck. Between his size, speed and willingness to hit, opposing d-men are sbisaing.

 

[tyhee]

It was frustrating to see McCann stapled to the bench at the end of the game when they pulled Miller. It's obvious that they are giving Vey every opportunity to prove himself instead of trying to win the game. He was literally on the ice for almost 2 minutes it seemed. C'mon Benning just own up and take your beating like a man that you wasted a 2nd round pick.

As we all know preseason isn't really about winning.

If I'd spent a 2nd round pick on a guy I was obviously high on last summer and he wasn't working out, I'd want to take every opportunity to make sure it wouldn't be a mistake before getting rid of him or taking the chance by exposing him to waivers.

Of course, we don't really know what the coaches are thinking. Maybe:

A. they are taking a look before dumping him; or

B they see a vet that isn't ready for the season and are giving him more playing time to get the rust out.

Obviously most posters on this forum would be displeased with B.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Sure he does, most young players do. Horvat was a rare exception. The fire drill was expected...Vey is terrible on that side of the puck and so is Baertschi. Now alongside two good defensive players the deficiencies may be mitigated. BUt it is a clear and major weakness.

This is why letting Richardson go baffles me. He is the perfect player to mentor Vey, given they have similar skillsets, though Vey favors offense instead of defense. Perhaps pairing him with Sutter might work, but I still feel this was a horrible lack of foresight on Benning's part.

It was frustrating to see McCann stapled to the bench at the end of the game when they pulled Miller. It's obvious that they are giving Vey every opportunity to prove himself instead of trying to win the game. He was literally on the ice for almost 2 minutes it seemed. C'mon Benning just own up and take your beating like a man that you wasted a 2nd round pick.

Of course they are. McCann is waver exempt, thus we have nothing to lose if we do send him down. Vey and Baertschi need to be on the active roster or we lose them. So there isn't any harm in giving them every opportunity, especially in a preseason game. Frankly, I would continue feeding them minutes until around the ten game mark. If they continue to struggle, then you cut them loose. This should be our focus - putting young players in positions to succeed. I certainly prefer this to futile playoff attempts.

 

[604]

It comes down to do the Canucks want him to be Raffi Torres or Cam Neely?

Didn't Cam Neely develop as a 4th liner in the NHL?

 

[Tiranis]

But people forget that guys like Dorsett and Prust while lower end NHL players are better than almost every player in junior.

I don't see how Virtanen will improve on his weaknesses playing with two guys who are incapable of in-zone cycle and play a very straightforward 4th line game. Not a whole lot of teamwork going on there. Seems like the perfect way to ruin a prospect who needs to work on his offensive game.

 

[Rey]

crytpic, but i think what you're saying is give baertschi and vey a bit of a break?

i agree to a certain extent, insofar as we have two preseason games left and they should be given substantial opportunities in both of those games. it did frustrate me at first to see vey out there in the 4-on-3 and pulled-goalie minutes, but at the end of the day that's what the coaches need to see: can they do the job when the puck's given to them on a platter. right now, neither of those two guys have really been able to. but it's right to not be rash.

i think this board in general has a bit of a misconception about how highly JB and willie value vey and baertschi, though. vey was a healthy scratch often last year and baertschi has already served a purpose: boosting the comet's cup run and building the competitive atmosphere over training camp.

i'm more worried that JB is going to start looking sideways at guys like burrows and hansen...

I never even thought of Vey. I was referring to Corrado and Baetschi. Vey played a full season last year and is 24. I think we've seen and have an idea how Vey plays. For me, Linden Vey's best is probably a Nick Bonino. He could probably carve out a career but just the way his style is, i can't see him having any success. He needs efficient wingers and that's just something the Canucks don't have but what they have, is an abundant of skill centers. Baetsch on the other hand, is potentially one of those guys and we are all hoping he becomes a point producer that the team severely needs and lacks. It's still too early to write off Bartsch, give it a year or two but I'd like to see at least a full season in the Big leagues before i write him off. Skill guys, i think, are slow starters and their play is solely based on their confidence. I think you need some patience.

The problem is management screwed up and overpaid for the two players. A 2nd rounder is a lot, and you don't acquire a guy just to give him away. I'm all for giving picks to look at a player especially when it's a player who can produce in every other league outside of the NHL but of course, management will never admit they are wrong and will give those players special treatment. I don't blame them if it was last year where we had nobody else to do the job but right now, it's interesting because we actually have guys pushing for jobs.

I think they'll find spots for the rookie who makes it, and Vey+Baetschi easily. There's room for the two forward prospects who deserve it. Add the Higgins injury, and there's more time to dwell over it. The biggest question is what to do with Hutton. He's clearly deserving a shot and he's ready, he's been playing college hockey for a while, so he's played with men. The thing is, we could very well lose another young defender in Corrado who showed so much promise not to long ago.

 

[Vtownfan]

Didn't Cam Neely develop as a 4th liner in the NHL?

He joined the league at 18 and was traded at 20. Played behind Smyl and Tanti, so 3rd line I guess. 1st year in Boston lead the team in goals.


Beyond that, people are taking the names to literal. Do we want Virtanen to be an energy banger or a 1st line power forward? Develop him in the role you want him to play. If I had 1 knock on the kid this preseason it is that he is putting himself out of position and the play trying TO hard to make the big hit. It was evident when he played with the Sedins.

 

[waka waka]

Great work by Biega to separate Marleau from the puck

I haven't done the work or searching but I definitely want the gif of that. It was pretty.

Thought the game was great. Young guys looked good.

 

[Luck 6]

This is why letting Richardson go baffles me. He is the perfect player to mentor Vey, given they have similar skillsets, though Vey favors offense instead of defense. Perhaps pairing him with Sutter might work, but I still feel this was a horrible lack of foresight on Benning's part.

I liked Richardson, but we really have no room for him. Having him here to mentor young players is great, but we already have our core players for that. Richardson at this point really just takes a roster spot away from a younger player. Even if that younger player is Vey, I'd rather gamble on the idea of him figuring it out this season than handing that spot to a zero upside veteran.

 

[MS]

I liked Richardson, but we really have no room for him. Having him here to mentor young players is great, but we already have our core players for that. Richardson at this point really just takes a roster spot away from a younger player. Even if that younger player is Vey, I'd rather gamble on the idea of him figuring it out this season than handing that spot to a zero upside veteran.

Wait, what?

We have literally a tailor-made spot for him centering the 4th line, where we sorely need someone of pretty much his exact skillset.

Our choices right now for that spot are a complete garbage AHL player in Vey and a minor-league RW in Cracknell. Or Jared McCann, who you don't really want playing with Dorsett and Prust.

 

[fancouver]

It comes down to do the Canucks want him to be Raffi Torres or Cam Neely?

Virtanen will likely become a Torres before he becomes a Neely. That's what I see him doing early on in his career anyways based on his AHL and pre-season games.

If he's playing this year, 4th line would be a good place for him to start.

Dorsett - McCann - Virtanen

 

[tantalum]

LOL It almost did. Neely never got a shot with the Canucks playing behind Smyl and Tanti. He only blossomed when give ice and opportunity with the Bruins.

Canucks need to stop turning offensive prospects into 4th line grinders.

He was 20 when he was traded and working his way up the lineup. That wasn't a hindsight bad trade. It was a bad trade at the time it happened.

Also, it actually proves my point...a year on the 4th line is not going to turn a Neely into a Torres. And given we aren't talking about Virtanen being on the 4th line for years and years and years or being in junior for several more years it's pretty safe to say as with Neely it isn't going to stunt development.

Not saying Virtanen is Neely of course.

 

[tantalum]

I don't see how Virtanen will improve on his weaknesses playing with two guys who are incapable of in-zone cycle and play a very straightforward 4th line game. Not a whole lot of teamwork going on there. Seems like the perfect way to ruin a prospect who needs to work on his offensive game.

On the other hand, you have the tendency in junior for a lot of guys to try to one man show everything. Does that help? And whether those guys in the NHL can cycle or not I'm not sure that is his biggest issue...from my admittedly limited viewings I find it to be more of a case of the speed of the game in the offensive zone rather than what he's supposed to do. On the defensive side of things I also worry because I think the structure of the NHL would do him wonders. He can cheat in the CHL so unless he has a really good coach the progress may not come to that side of his game.

Again it doesn't hurt for him to be in junior...I'm not arguing that. I also think he needs to play the final two pre-season games to see if he can continue to make those small gains he appears to be making thus far. They aren't the giant leaps McCann seems to be making but he is improving. And that shouldn't be undervalued.

 

[Wildcarder]

Wait, what?

We have literally a tailor-made spot for him centering the 4th line, where we sorely need someone of pretty much his exact skillset.

Our choices right now for that spot are a complete garbage AHL player in Vey and a minor-league RW in Cracknell. Or Jared McCann, who you don't really want playing with Dorsett and Prust.

I agree. I'd rather have given away Kassian for free (and not gotten Prust back at all) and kept Richardson who seems like a perfect mentor for players like Vey, McCann, Cassels, etc.

 

[Intangibos]

I agree. I'd rather have given away Kassian for free (and not gotten Prust back at all) and kept Richardson who seems like a perfect mentor for players like Vey, McCann, Cassels, etc.

Yeah, I said this ages ago and it just gets ignored. Richie was better than Dorsett was for us last year. Richardson fought when there was actually a reason to, and did better than Dorsett no less. He is also solid defensively and a good guy in the room by all accounts.

Quite bizarre that we 'need to get tougher' and Benning wants to 'help Dorsett in the fighting department' by getting rid of our guys that will drop the gloves. Even if you all think Kassian is a cream puff, Richardson and Bieksa were those guys on the team as well. We downgraded for toughness and still managed to get softer. Impressive.

Unfortunate Prust looks terrible this year, he doesn't even deserve to be in the lineup based on how he has played compared to others. We have kids who would do better in that role right now.

 

[VanJack]

This is why letting Richardson go baffles me. He is the perfect player to mentor Vey, given they have similar skillsets, though Vey favors offense instead of defense. Perhaps pairing him with Sutter might work, but I still feel this was a horrible lack of foresight on Benning's part.



Of course they are. McCann is waver exempt, thus we have nothing to lose if we do send him down. Vey and Baertschi need to be on the active roster or we lose them. So there isn't any harm in giving them every opportunity, especially in a preseason game. Frankly, I would continue feeding them minutes until around the ten game mark. If they continue to struggle, then you cut them loose. This should be our focus - putting young players in positions to succeed. I certainly prefer this to futile playoff attempts.

Problem was Richardson was looking for term in his contract, which he got from the Yotes....no way the Canucks were going to sign the guy to a two or three year deal and have him standing in the way of the kids like McCann, Cassels and Horvat......was the right move for the 'Nucks to let him walk, but we're sure going to miss him in faceoff circle.

 

[Intangibos]

Problem was Richardson was looking for term in his contract, which he got from the Yotes....no way the Canucks were going to sign the guy to a two or three year deal and have him standing in the way of the kids like McCann, Cassels and Horvat......was the right move for the 'Nucks to let him walk, but we're sure going to miss him in faceoff circle.

But they also signed guys like Dorsett and Sbisa to term contracts, and they're blocking some kids as well.

Can't use "not wanting to block the kids" as an excuse when Benning also signed worse players who are also blocking them.