GDT: Pre-season game 3: Golden Knights @ Sharks 7pm “Streamed” on Sharks.nhl.com

[hohosaregood]

Let-s just blow up the top 6:
Couture-Thornton-Meier
Kane-Hertl-Pavelski
Labanc-Suomella-Donskoi
Sorensen-Chartier-Goodrow

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I was responding to Jux, where goals /points were the point of the discussion. In no way was it disingenuous. Follow along next time.

I did follow along and you're still being disingenuous and adding condescending on top of that now. Even where goals and points are the point of discussion, isolating two years even if they're the same age to compare Marleau and Kane is being disingenuous for the reasons I stated. One proved themselves prior to that occurring where the other hasn't and you know this already. That's why it's disingenuous. Next time, you try following along and take some of this criticism to heart before you condescend to someone else as if you're making a legitimate point rather than being a blowhard.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I'm not understanding your answer... Kane should be the 7mil on this years cap, Coutures should be the 6mil he signed 5(?) years ago... I'm looking for the value when initially signed as a comparison. Then we have to consider how many years of UFA each gave up and obviously performance and position.

The way capfriendly does their cap percentages is that they take the cap hit and make it a percentage of the cap of the league year that they signed it. So if someone extends before July 1, that term is made a percentage of the cap of that season that just ended. I know it's kind of off but that's their methodology for that number.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Patrick Marleau at about Kanes age with 8 years of PO experience.

GP 11 Goals 3 Assists 3
GP 13 Goals 4 Assists 4

What a loser. Right Jux?

Yes, those were two fairly pathetic playoff runs for a supposed top line player. Did you expect me to say otherwise?

I know how much you hate Marleau. He’s gone. Celebrate and be done with it.

 

[Led Zappa]

I did follow along and you're still being disingenuous and adding condescending on top of that now. Even where goals and points are the point of discussion, isolating two years even if they're the same age to compare Marleau and Kane is being disingenuous for the reasons I stated. One proved themselves prior to that occurring where the other hasn't and you know this already. That's why it's disingenuous. Next time, you try following along and take some of this criticism to heart before you condescend to someone else as if you're making a legitimate point rather than being a blowhard.

First you called me disingenuous, an insult and now you're continuing to insult me.

Jux used 1 year and 9 games to make her point, so I used 2 years where they were basically the same age to make a similar point and in no way was it disingenuous. My point was it's a poor reason to pass judgement on what Kane may or may not do in the future when Marleau's were just as poor and he had years of PO experience. This wasn't an attempt at a dissertation to compare careers.

I'm out.

 

[Mattb124]

Have to remember this is from the same board that said kane didn't care about his offseason training because he hadn't posted about it on instagram.

People here will find reasons to complain about kane, even if those reasons are made up inside there own little minds.

Ahem, it wasnt that board who complained about that, it was a small subset..... the same one that thinks it is incredibly naive that Kane could possibly have a motivation beyond money.

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." John Wooden

 

[Pinkfloyd]

First you called me disingenuous, an insult and now you're continuing to insult me.

Jux used 1 year and 9 games to make her point, so I used 2 years where they were basically the same age to make a similar point and in no way was it disingenuous. My point was it's a poor reason to pass judgement on what Kane may or may not do in the future when Marleau's were just as poor and he had years of PO experience. This wasn't an attempt at a dissertation to compare careers.

I'm out.

Because that's what you're being. You know damn well what you're saying isn't sincere and now you're going to play the victim here just hours after you insulted everyone on these boards in another thread. The answer to what you think is a shallow point isn't to make a shallow point yourself. I've shown you exactly why it still was disingenuous even if you think it's a similar point. If you want to score the points and win the debate, you should do better and not make the same kind of crappy point.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I don't know what this means, but if you enjoyed watching Patty play patty cake along the boards, well, ce la vie.

I was going to bring up some statistics that show Marleau is in a whole other league from Evander Kane. But I realized midway that it is pointless, because some people will just believe what they want to. There is no point in trying to have a rational discussion with somebody who believes we should have traded Patrick Marleau for an Evander Kane type player because of physicality.

Yes, those were two fairly pathetic playoff runs for a supposed top line player. Did you expect me to say otherwise?

I know how much you hate Marleau. He’s gone. Celebrate and be done with it.

Realistically speaking, it's hilarious that somebody would look at those playoff runs as evidence that Marleau<Kane, since they were statistically comparable to Kane's runs this year, and Marleau was never the 3-zone train wreck that Kane was this year.

 

[hohosaregood]

Kane disappears in the playoffs and we’re giving him the injury excuse and venerating a 17 game stretch during which the majority of his goals were scored against the Calgary Flames.

I have no idea what Kane has done to earn such undying loyalty around here.

Why does he deserve your unending loathing though?

 

[Juxtaposer]

Why does he deserve your unending loathing though?

Loathing is an incredibly strong word. What I loathe is his contract.

 

[hohosaregood]

Loathing is an incredibly strong word. What I loathe is his contract.

Undying loyalty is an incredibly strong phrase too and you just claim that anybody not hating is undyingly loyal.

 

[Phalanx]

So I guess the honeymoon phase from getting Erik Karlsson has faded around here huh? And all it took was 1 preseason loss...

 

[Maladroit]

Hahahaha people are actually mentioning Patrick Marleau in the same breath as Evander Kane. One of those guys is a Hall Of Famer the other is a career middle six forward. Marleau is 12 years older than Kane and scored two fewer goals than him last season, one of the best of Kane's underwhelming career. Get a f***ing grip.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Hahahaha people are actually mentioning Patrick Marleau in the same breath as Evander Kane. One of those guys is a Hall Of Famer the other is a career middle six forward. Marleau is 12 years older than Kane and scored two fewer goals than him last season, one of the best of Kane's underwhelming career. Get a ****ing grip.

Lets calm down there buddy. Better players than Marleau have yet to get in the Hall. If he helps Toronto get a cup or gets to 600+ goals then he might get in. But by no means should he be referred to as a HOFer until he has the stats or hardware that make it a forgone conclusion.

 

[Gilligans Island]

Man, if this is what happens 2 days after a preseason loss, god help us.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Lets calm down there buddy. Better players than Marleau have yet to get in the Hall. If he helps Toronto get a cup or gets to 600+ goals then he might get in. But by no means should he be referred to as a HOFer until he has the stats or hardware that make it a forgone conclusion.

When people suggest that Patrick Marleau is a Hall of Famer, it begins a debate.

If anybody ever suggested that Evander Kane was a Hall of Famer, I would exit the conversation immediately.

 

[do0glas]

Man, if this is what happens 2 days after a preseason loss, god help us.

Alls it takes is some top shelf hot takes honestly.

 

[tiburon12]

What Jux is trying tell you guys is that it’s incredibly naive to think that suddenly, because he is on a good team, Kane is going to start performing better than he ever has before. Statistically speaking, we’ve got a lot more precedence to suggest that because he is not in a contract year, Kane is going to start performing about as well as he has in his other seasons that weren’t contract years.

I think that is narrowing the statistical sphere. We have no precedent for how Kane performs with better quality linemates. Kane has never played with a player like Thornton, nor has he ever had a Norris winning offensive defenseman on the ice with him at all times.

I dont think it's naive at all to think that a good player will achieve more with better quality linemates. We have seen that on this team, around the league, and I have seen and experienced that at every level of competitive hockey i have played. Look at Matt Moulson. Dude was a 30 goal scorer with Tavares, then he went to the abyss of Buffalo and fell off a cliff. that's one example of many.

Point being, there isnt a strong enough reason to be pessimistic about a guy who has played exactly 0 seconds of a contract. Hate the contract all you want (i think everyone wishes it could be lower on both sides of the / ), but at the very least be neutral going into the season.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I think that is narrowing the statistical sphere. We have no precedent for how Kane performs with better quality linemates. Kane has never played with a player like Thornton, nor has he ever had a Norris winning offensive defenseman on the ice with him at all times.

I dont think it's naive at all to think that a good player will achieve more with better quality linemates. We have seen that on this team, around the league, and I have seen and experienced that at every level of competitive hockey i have played. Look at Matt Moulson. Dude was a 30 goal scorer with Tavares, then he went to the abyss of Buffalo and fell off a cliff. that's one example of many.

Point being, there isnt a strong enough reason to be pessimistic about a guy who has played exactly 0 seconds of a contract. Hate the contract all you want (i think everyone wishes it could be lower on both sides of the / ), but at the very least be neutral going into the season.

Come on, do you really think 39 year old Thornton is anything that Kane has never played with before? Jack Eichel is certainly better than 39 year old Thornton. We need to stop overrating our players.

 

[tiburon12]

Come on, do you really think 39 year old Thornton is anything that Kane has never played with before? Jack Eichel is certainly better than 39 year old Thornton. We need to stop overrating our players.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Kane play with ROR? That's what i was basing my stance on.

 

[WSS11]

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Kane play with ROR? That's what i was basing my stance on.

Kane played 467 5v5 minutes with Eichel and 286 with ROR in 2017-2018.

Kane played 267 5v5 minutes with Eichel and 261 with ROR in 2016-2017.

Kane played 418 5v5 minutes with Michael and 399 with ROR in 2015-2016.

Even then, in 2018-2019, ROR is probably a better regular season center than anybody on the Sharks. ROR averaged 64 points per 82 games in his 3 seasons with Buffalo. Over that same time frame, Couture averages 60 and Thornton averages 66. ROR is easily the best defensive player out of the 3 (at least right now; Thornton likely the best of the 3 in 2015-2016) and so I find it real hard to accept an argument that says Kane is going to explode on this new team with better players when his two most common centers in his time in Buffalo are better than any center we have on our team.

 

[tiburon12]

Kane played 467 5v5 minutes with Eichel and 286 with ROR in 2017-2018.

Kane played 267 5v5 minutes with Eichel and 261 with ROR in 2016-2017.

Kane played 418 5v5 minutes with Michael and 399 with ROR in 2015-2016.

Even then, in 2018-2019, ROR is probably a better regular season center than anybody on the Sharks. ROR averaged 64 points per 82 games in his 3 seasons with Buffalo. Over that same time frame, Couture averages 60 and Thornton averages 66. ROR is easily the best defensive player out of the 3 (at least right now; Thornton likely the best of the 3 in 2015-2016) and so I find it real hard to accept an argument that says Kane is going to explode on this new team with better players when his two most common centers in his time in Buffalo are better than any center we have on our team.

Thanks for doing this digging on his linemates.

Looks like he played equal minutes with Reinhart as he did Eichel. I would say Eichel, ROR, and Reinhart are his most common centers, without doing math they look about equal in TOI with. And while Eichel is definitely better now that Couture and Thornton, that is just one quality linemate. He will have the luxury of Burns or Karlsson, Jumbo, and Pavs on the ice with him at all times.

I dont think he is going to "explode", i would never be that hyperbolic. All im saying is that his quality of linemates has definitely improved, and for that reason alone we have more reason to be optimistic about his production, hell even neutral about his production, than we do to be pessimistic.

I'm simply talking about expectations. I am not sold on this pessimism.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

This board is pro player...until they sign a contract that isn't peanuts.

 

[hockeyball]

Man, if this is what happens 2 days after a preseason loss, god help us.

Preseason shoot out loss no less