Speculation: Potential Trade Deadline Acquisition

[Dipsy Doodle]

Because when Sid's going, this team really doesn't need Malkin very often to win regular season games.

I don't think DB knows how to coach him when both guys are healthy.

Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds?

 

[KIRK]

Results don't lie but interpretation can, actually results can lie. nvm. This is generalizing to a degree. This team has issues, aside from the injuries, I think the coaching is a problem and that they players have issues but changing the coaching should help with the players. Something has to change.




Maybe it's just not something he can consistently do? He'll do it once in awhile, but not regularly. Maybe he does it when Crosby is out because he thinks he has to, but that doesn't mean he could do that indefinitely.

I don't think KMN will fix it but try it, whatever, things probably won't get worse. I think with Malkin the nature of the beast is that he has to get himself going and that isn't predictable/reliable; it's a perfect storm situation.

1. I agree that something has to change. Results don't lie. Even the interpretation doesn't lie. What really is up for debate is what results do-- or should-- matter. For me, it's seeing the Pens win a cup. For others, that is one of a number of results that matter.

2. I've always wondered how easy it is to be satisfied being #2 but play like #1. People have talked about the Russian hockey culture, #1 line, #2 line, etc each having different values. Therrien, for all of his faults, always made sure to treat them as 1A and 1B, even if they were not. For Bylsma, not so much . . . maybe he doesn't see the need, maybe he doesn't think he's doing it . . . who knows. What I do know is that it takes a delicate balancing act for any coach to handle Malkin is such a way that he stays content with his status without becoming complacent. It can't be easy, although that can't be an excuse at this point. Fair? Probably not. But, it comes with the territory of coaching this team.

 

[mpp9]

Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds?

Do you realize there's collectively maybe a couple months of Malkin's play since 09 that could be used to argue the contrary?

But I think with a new look up front, Sid and Geno are talented enough to lead us to a cup with a less than ideal coach.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

This team could use a physical winger, someone like Clifford or Lee from the Islanders would be nice as well as the room to get Despres back up and possibly partner him with Letang to lessen the derp in Kris.

That's all I can hope for at the deadline.

I will still be disappointed and complain so I can fit in here.

 

[JTG]

What pisses me off about the Geno situation the most is that Kunitz-Geno-Neal was ****ing dominating the league. They were absolutely killing it. Then the second Sid comes back DB says, "**** you Geno!" and breaks up the line. That line was perfect and it had Geno going.

Since then they've tried everyone from Tangradi to Kobe to D'Ags on Geno's LW and he's dying alive out there.

You are looking at this situation with no context at all.

Despite everyone that has been on his line, the most important player to Geno's game has only been there for 2 games.

 

[billybudd]

Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds?

Criticisms of Bylsma are at their most-valuable when they're grounded in details, not vague meanderings about his inability to handle (whatever that means...nobody ever goes into specifics) this guy or that guy under circumstance X but not Y.

Good criticism--Bylsma had his wings too high in the defensive zone and the opposition kept fronting them, needlessly prolonging cycles

or

with one minute left in a 2-1 game, he should have a second center in case the guy gets tossed from the dot (he's usually pretty good about this, though)

Bad criticism--I don't think Maata (or whoever) will ever reach his potential for a coach like Bylsma because he doesn't (insert vague, meaningless guess about something he may or may not think).

 

[JTG]

Criticisms of Bylsma are at their most-valuable when they're grounded in details, not vague meanderings about his inability to handle (whatever that means...nobody ever goes into specifics) this guy or that guy under circumstance X but not Y.

Good criticism--Bylsma had his wings too high in the defensive zone and the opposition kept fronting them, needlessly prolonging cycles

or

with one minute left in a 2-1 game, he should have a second center in case the guy gets tossed from the dot (he's usually pretty good about this, though)

Bad criticism--I don't think Maata (or whoever) will ever reach his potential for a coach like Bylsma because he doesn't (insert vague, meaningless guess about something he may or may not think).

Good post.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

2. I've always wondered how easy it is to be satisfied being #2 but play like #1. People have talked about the Russian hockey culture, #1 line, #2 line, etc each having different values. Therrien, for all of his faults, always made sure to treat them as 1A and 1B, even if they were not. For Bylsma, not so much . . . maybe he doesn't see the need, maybe he doesn't think he's doing it . . . who knows. What I do know is that it takes a delicate balancing act for any coach to handle Malkin is such a way that he stays content with his status without becoming complacent. It can't be easy, although that can't be an excuse at this point. Fair? Probably not. But, it comes with the territory of coaching this team.

I do wander how much the cultural difference plays into things, and not just Bylsma not understanding Malkin. Russia has a very different recent history than North America and that impacts people so much. People like to point out stereotyping and such, which are wrong, but the reality is that the environment people come from is massive, it has to be considered. Socioeconomic background, cultural background, etc. all influence people and make it difficult for people not from the same situation to understand it.

An American born in 1970 is very different from a Russian born in 1986. Therrien has a different background than Bylsma, a French Canadian born in 1963; Bylsma is different from Therrien who perhaps understood Malkin better. They all even have very different hockey backgrounds, AHL, grinder in the NHL and a top tier NHL player. Bylsma is also still young for a coach which could really be contributing to this, he hasn't learned how to work with players like Malkin yet. I actually doubt Bylsma sees it tbf, this is a man who will put the 4th line out in crucial situations and who didn't seem to get line matching in the past. He doesn't get lines, it's a problem. He also just doesn't seem to understand talent.

It really helps explain his issues with Europeans and rookies, he just doesn't understand them or relate to them, extra points for being skilled.

Part of the issue is most likely Malkin requiring a certain type of treatment, which is Malkin. The team also has a different financial situation now that could be playing into it. I think in a lot of way Malkin has a sweet setup going on, he doesn't face #1 opposition, gets paid like a #1, at least has a #1 winger, doesn't have the full #1 pressure and has less media attention; double edged sword, though.

They should all probably be going to that shrink and communication lessons. No joke.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Criticisms of Bylsma are at their most-valuable when they're grounded in details, not vague meanderings about his inability to handle (whatever that means...nobody ever goes into specifics) this guy or that guy under circumstance X but not Y.

Good criticism--Bylsma had his wings too high in the defensive zone and the opposition kept fronting them, needlessly prolonging cycles

or

with one minute left in a 2-1 game, he should have a second center in case the guy gets tossed from the dot (he's usually pretty good about this, though)

Bad criticism--I don't think Maata (or whoever) will ever reach his potential for a coach like Bylsma because he doesn't (insert vague, meaningless guess about something he may or may not think).

Good post indeed. It's one of the things that pissed me off about the Isles series last year, the Isles kept burning the Penguins with speed and Bylsma kept playing the old card of "We need to play our game" crap until he finally counters them with some speedy players of our own and a goaltending change. When Bylsma admits to himself that he needs to study the other team and neutralize their strengths, he's great, but then he falls back into his old patterns (Boston series) and it's game over. Sometimes the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thing is nice and it's something that works, but when you win 2 series and suddenly you think you can go back to your old game and get owned and you refuse to change your system to match the other team and get owned...then people get mad.

I think the progression of players, is on them and the team to help them but like most things, you need to admit there is a problem and go from there. My issue with Bylsma is his coaching system, I stopped caring about who he puts with whom in the line-up.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Do you realize there's collectively maybe a couple months of Malkin's play since 09 that could be used to argue the contrary?

But I think with a new look up front, Sid and Geno are talented enough to lead us to a cup with a less than ideal coach.

I'm not arguing that hasn't happened, I'm refuting the argument that it's the result of not coaching one player differently when another player's in the line-up. That's absurd. I've never heard anything like it.

Criticisms of Bylsma are at their most-valuable when they're grounded in details, not vague meanderings about his inability to handle (whatever that means...nobody ever goes into specifics) this guy or that guy under circumstance X but not Y.

Good criticism--Bylsma had his wings too high in the defensive zone and the opposition kept fronting them, needlessly prolonging cycles

or

with one minute left in a 2-1 game, he should have a second center in case the guy gets tossed from the dot (he's usually pretty good about this, though)

Bad criticism--I don't think Maata (or whoever) will ever reach his potential for a coach like Bylsma because he doesn't (insert vague, meaningless guess about something he may or may not think).

Yep. I don't always agree with the pointed criticisms either, but they're more earnest and worthy of discussion than flinging **** at a wall.

 

[Tender Rip]

Good post indeed. It's one of the things that pissed me off about the Isles series last year, the Isles kept burning the Penguins with speed and Bylsma kept playing the old card of "We need to play our game" crap until he finally counters them with some speedy players of our own and a goaltending change. When Bylsma admits to himself that he needs to study the other team and neutralize their strengths, he's great, but then he falls back into his old patterns (Boston series) and it's game over. Sometimes the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thing is nice and it's something that works, but when you win 2 series and suddenly you think you can go back to your old game and get owned and you refuse to change your system to match the other team and get owned...then people get mad.

I think the progression of players, is on them and the team to help them but like most things, you need to admit there is a problem and go from there. My issue with Bylsma is his coaching system, I stopped caring about who he puts with whom in the line-up.

You can say this it nitpicking as we are probably otherwise mostly in agreement, but that underlined part just strikes a never with me.... is that really 'great' or more like 'not abject failure'?
Because I distinctly remember many of us here prescribing quite explicitly how we could be getting into problems against the Isles, as well as how to get out of it once we did.
This simply cannot be what justifies comments about Bylsma being a good coach. I honestly don't know what to point to over the past two years that suggests that he is.

Achieving what we did in the season we lost Sid and Malkin, that's pretty much the last thing I can find. And that was really more about reaching players and motivating them to keep up a superb work rate and sticking with a game plan. Bylsma seems very good at getting players to not mail it in when facing adversity. They get tighther instead, and that speaks to some ability, just not very much that has to do with X's and O's.

Speaking of those though, back then we ran neutral zone interference like crazy, often to the point that we should consider ourselves a trapping team, but also really bore down when we made the offensive zone and really went to the net for rebounds. We played not unlike Phoenix to be honest, and of course that was also when guys like Michalek and Martin looked completely awesome.
In other words we played a style of hockey that is very far away from what we are now, or how we would want to play to utilize our elite talent the best. Not surprisingly, perhaps, that is where Bylsma shone the brightest.

 

[Richard]

Malkin with Coach T

242gp 115g 189a 304p 1.25ppg

Malkin with Coach Disco

233gp 105g 166a 271p 1.16ppg



I don't notice an appreciable difference. The only difference is when Malkin wants to play he's one of the best players in the world. When he feels like being lazy and slacking off, he isn't.

9M man needs to have more than 3 goals by 20% of the season! He needs to get his ass in gear. Period.

 

[tinkezione]

Care to run that stats also to cover Sid's presence/absence, regarding the lengthy injury periods he's had? I have a certain feeling that with both Sid and Geno healthy Geno's production has been pretty low to the expectations.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

You can say this it nitpicking as we are probably otherwise mostly in agreement, but that underlined part just strikes a never with me.... is that really 'great' or more like 'not abject failure'?
Because I distinctly remember many of us here prescribing quite explicitly how we could be getting into problems against the Isles, as well as how to get out of it once we did.
This simply cannot be what justifies comments about Bylsma being a good coach. I honestly don't know what to point to over the past two years that suggests that he is.

Achieving what we did in the season we lost Sid and Malkin, that's pretty much the last thing I can find. And that was really more about reaching players and motivating them to keep up a superb work rate and sticking with a game plan. Bylsma seems very good at getting players to not mail it in when facing adversity. They get tighther instead, and that speaks to some ability, just not very much that has to do with X's and O's.

Speaking of those though, back then we ran neutral zone interference like crazy, often to the point that we should consider ourselves a trapping team, but also really bore down when we made the offensive zone and really went to the net for rebounds. We played not unlike Phoenix to be honest, and of course that was also when guys like Michalek and Martin looked completely awesome.
In other words we played a style of hockey that is very far away from what we are now, or how we would want to play to utilize our elite talent the best. Not surprisingly, perhaps, that is where Bylsma shone the brightest.

That's one of my biggest frustrations with Bylsma. Why on earth did they stop playing like that after Malkin and Crosby came back? Why can't the Pens be a frustrating, smothering team with it's stars in the lineup, for a change?

 

[Tender Rip]

Malkin with Coach T

242gp 115g 189a 304p 1.25ppg

Malkin with Coach Disco

233gp 105g 166a 271p 1.16ppg



I don't notice an appreciable difference. The only difference is when Malkin wants to play he's one of the best players in the world. When he feels like being lazy and slacking off, he isn't.

9M man needs to have more than 3 goals by 20% of the season! He needs to get his ass in gear. Period.

Besides even getting the numbers wrong, this seem a great example of someone not allowing context to enter their analysis.

I would say that it doesn't preclude me from agreeing with your final sentence, but that is almost a shame as the argument is otherwise to unworthy of being called an argument.

 

[Richard]

Besides even getting the numbers wrong, this seem a great example of someone not allowing context to enter their analysis.

I would say that it doesn't preclude me from agreeing with your final sentence, but that is almost a shame as the argument is otherwise to unworthy of being called an argument.

First of all, the numbers come from hockeydb. Secondly, as to the points per game, I rounded to the first three digits because I am on my smart phone in Court.

Secondly, I didn't feel like looking up the last 18-20 games of 09 onto the list. So yes the numbers are a tad inaccurate.

Goals per game is down significantly since the beginning of Geno's career. My points are valid

 

[Tender Rip]

First of all, the numbers come from hockeydb. Secondly, as to the points per game, I rounded to the first three digits because I am on my smart phone in Court.

Secondly, I didn't feel like looking up the last 18-20 games of 09 onto the list. So yes the numbers are a tad inaccurate.

I was just referring to the 32 points Geno scored in the final 25 games of that regular season. If anything, those numbers would just solidify your 'no difference'... erm.... argument.

Goals per game is down significantly since the beginning of Geno's career. My points are valid

...and our team scoring is up by quite a bit. Again, I reject your argument entirely because it does not deal with context whatsoever. It doesn't care that from 07-09 Geno went from rookie to Conn Smythe winner in one long uninterrupted upward trajectory. Then there has been one sustained period of greatness since, when our coach had no other option but to ride him.

That all the context in the world does not really make it acceptable that Malkin has 3 goals in 18 games is something else entirely. I am not white washing this - only saying that what we have been seeing now is certainly not just down to Malkin. But he has responsibility too, for sure.

 

[Malkin112*]

Care to run that stats also to cover Sid's presence/absence, regarding the lengthy injury periods he's had? I have a certain feeling that with both Sid and Geno healthy Geno's production has been pretty low to the expectations.

Malkin without Crosby 95gp 57g+74a=131p 1,38ppg
Malkin with Crosby 380gp 163g+281a=444p 1,17ppg

It's pretty big difference

 

[Shady Machine]

Malkin without Crosby 95gp 57g+74a=131p 1,38ppg
Malkin with Crosby 380gp 163g+281a=444p 1,17ppg

It's pretty big difference

Yeah but Malkin benefits from Sid being matched up against the top D pairings (or something).

That is a pretty big difference. Geno definitely has a hand in that. For whatever reason, he thrives when he has to carry the team and tends to get complacent when he doesn't have to.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

He does get the best possible linemates when Sid is out, but that's a pretty damn big difference.

 

[DegenX]

So, this being a trade speculation thread and all ... any opinions on Shawn Matthias?
Think Florida might take Nisky off our hands for him? Or maybe Nisky + Jeffrey for Matthias + a pick? He could slot in on Sutter's LW, boost the PK and we'd shed some cap in the process.

 

[billybudd]

So, this being a trade speculation thread and all ... any opinions on Shawn Matthias?
Think Florida might take Nisky off our hands for him? Or maybe Nisky + Jeffrey for Matthias + a pick? He could slot in on Sutter's LW, boost the PK and we'd shed some cap in the process.

I like Shawn Matthias (big fan of mutants who can skate better than, say, David Steckel), but he's the type of guy 29 other teams probably could all use. If he becomes available, there will be a lot of bids.

I also like Fleischmann, but you never know when he'll just up and miss half a season (blot clotting disorder).

Edit: just checked florida's roster on TSN...Ryan Whitney went -7 with no points in 6 games playing about 16 minutes per night. No wonder they waived him.

 

[Shady Machine]

I like Shawn Matthias (big fan of mutants who can skate better than, say, David Steckel), but he's the type of guy 29 other teams probably could all use. If he becomes available, there will be a lot of bids.

I also like Fleischmann, but you never know when he'll just up and miss half a season (blot clotting disorder).

Edit: just checked florida's roster on TSN...Ryan Whitney went -7 with no points in 6 games playing about 16 minutes per night. No wonder they waived him.

Yeah I was coming to post the same thing about Matthias. Florida probably needs a shake up, but I have to think Matthias is one of the guys they want to keep.

 

[DegenX]

Yeah, Matthias probably isn't available unless he's part of a bigger trade. Not sure I'd want to take a chance with Fleischmann, either, all things considered.

The Pens are in a bit of a difficult spot in regards to trades. Not only does the cap situation make it difficult, but pretty much everyone we'd most likely be looking to trade are pending UFA's, with the exception of Jeffrey.

 

[Fire Shero*]

If we can manage to play Columbus, Buffalo, Florida and Winnipeg in the playoffs this season, I will like our chances.

All we need is a reliable backup goalie, 2 top 6 wingers and a better 4th line and we will be set.