Potential Hall of Famers

[Kyle McMahon]

i really don't see how shanahan is a lock but fedorov and forsberg, who have won the hart and were significantly better in the playoffs, aren't. both should go in before shanahan.

imo, selanne has as good a case as shanahan.

With Forsberg, it's simple. While he was undeniably more talented than Shanahan, the latter has had twice the career. Forsberg is pretty similar to Lindros or Neely in that sense, so much time missed to injury. In fact, Forsberg has played the fewest games of those three. At what point do you say that, regardless of how great he was, a guy's career was simply too short? I don't know, and I'm glad I don't have to decide, because unless you're Bobby Orr, it's a very tough call to make.

The reason Fedorov isn't a lock is probably because he always left you wanting more, which may not sit well with the voters. Based on his strong two-way play and playoff awsomeness, I would vote for Fedorov's induction. But he has a decade's worth of underwhelming regular seasons to count against him. If Columbus makes some noise in the next couple of years and he's a key part of that, he probably becomes a lock in my books.

 

[Sens Rule]

Alright, when? When was Sundin, for more than two or three years a top-20 player in the game? When was ever a top-10 player?

I don't think it's right to say "well, Duff and Gillies got in, so that means all these guys need to go in as well". Gillies and Duff were mistakes, you can't base addmission criteria on them or else you just end up with more mistakes.

Sundin is not comparable to Duff and Gilles. He is more comparable to:

Robitaille - he may have a bunch of All-star selections at LW but when was he a top 10 or top 20 player in the NHL? No more than Sundin was.

Gartner - Sundin was a better player.... plain and simple as that. Gartner was likely never a top 20 player EVER in the NHL. Yet he was considered a mortal lock for the Hall of Fame.

Perreault - The best player on his team most of his career. Second team All-star twice. Quite comparable career to Sundin if a bit better. Finished 3rd, 5th and 8th, 5th in scoring. Top 10 4 times.

Alex Delvecchio. Never the best player on his team. Second team All-Star twice. Long career. A good player but how often was he a top 10 forward in the original 6? Not often. Sundin has had a better career.

Mike Modano - Aside from his Cup win I think Sundin has had a better career.

Michel Goulet - I think Sundin has had a better career

Bernie Federko - Sundin I think has had a better career

Darryl Sittler - Pretty Comparable to Sundin

 

[pitseleh]

With Forsberg, it's simple. While he was undeniably more talented than Shanahan, the latter has had twice the career. Forsberg is pretty similar to Lindros or Neely in that sense, so much time missed to injury. In fact, Forsberg has played the fewest games of those three. At what point do you say that, regardless of how great he was, a guy's career was simply too short? I don't know, and I'm glad I don't have to decide, because unless you're Bobby Orr, it's a very tough call to make.

I think overall Forsberg had a better career than Lindros or Neely despite playing fewer games though. He finished in the top-5 scoring 4 times, top-10 6 times, was a First-Team all star three times, has a Hart and an Art Ross, was a dominant playoff performer and has three Cups. While it's nice that the others played more games, should it really be relevant if they were't much more than above average players during those extra games they accumulated?

 

[MXD]

Sundin is not comparable to Duff and Gilles. He is more comparable to:

Michel Goulet - I think Sundin has had a better career


Darryl Sittler - Pretty Comparable to Sundin

Goulet a better player than Sittler?!?!?
Maybe in absolute, but Michel Goulet is IMO a top-20 LW in the game. I wonder if Sittler is top-50 when it comes to C's.

 

[Sens Rule]

I think overall Forsberg had a better career than Lindros or Neely despite playing fewer games though. He finished in the top-5 scoring 4 times, top-10 6 times, was a First-Team all star three times, has a Hart and an Art Ross, was a dominant playoff performer and has three Cups. While it's nice that the others played more games, should it really be relevant if they were't much more than above average players during those extra games they accumulated?

I agree.

 

[WHA Euro]

Points per game:

Selänne 1.090
Shanahan 0.909

Goals per game:

Selänne 0.519
Shanahan 0.441

Assists per game:

Selänne 0.572
Shanahan 0.468

Top 10 scorer:

Selänne 6 times
Shanahan 2 times

Top goal scorer:

Selänne 3 times
Shanahan 0 times

100 point seasons:

Selänne 4
Shanahan 1

50 goal seasons:

Selänne 3
Shanahan 2

Career highs:

Points:

Selänne 132
Shanahan 102

Goals:

Selänne 76
Shanahan 52

Assists:

Selänne 68
Shanahan 50

All star selections:

Selänne 4 (2 first & 2 second)
Shanahan 3 (2 first & 1 second)

All star games:

Selänne 10
Shanahan 8

 

[pitseleh]

All star selections:

Selänne 4 (2 first & 2 second)
Shanahan 3 (2 first & 1 second)

Selanne also did at a historically more competitive position (RW vs. LW).

Shanahan does bring more intangibles and had more playoff success, but Selanne was a far better regular season performer.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Sundin is not comparable to Duff and Gilles. He is more comparable to:

Robitaille - he may have a bunch of All-star selections at LW but when was he a top 10 or top 20 player in the NHL? No more than Sundin was.

Gartner - Sundin was a better player.... plain and simple as that. Gartner was likely never a top 20 player EVER in the NHL. Yet he was considered a mortal lock for the Hall of Fame.

Perreault - The best player on his team most of his career. Second team All-star twice. Quite comparable career to Sundin if a bit better. Finished 3rd, 5th and 8th, 5th in scoring. Top 10 4 times.

Alex Delvecchio. Never the best player on his team. Second team All-Star twice. Long career. A good player but how often was he a top 10 forward in the original 6? Not often. Sundin has had a better career.

Mike Modano - Aside from his Cup win I think Sundin has had a better career.

Michel Goulet - I think Sundin has had a better career

Bernie Federko - Sundin I think has had a better career

Darryl Sittler - Pretty Comparable to Sundin

I'm not comparing Sundin to Gillies and Duff, he's clearly better. I'm saying the fact that he's better shouldn't automatically get him in.

What's your point with all those names you brought up? They're basically all border-line HOFers, just like I'm saying Sundin is.

Robitaille: 8 consecutive 40-goal seasons. A lot of people seem to forget just how good of a goal scorer he was, and he was an able playmaker as well. Also a reasonably good playoff record (cleary better than Sundin's), even if his teams didn't often go far. He's the all-time leader in career goals and points, as well as single-season goals and points for a left winger (yes, I know it's a historically weak position). I'd say Robitaille should clearly get in before Sundin.

Gartner: Probably a pretty good comparison to Sundin, probably the two most consistent players ever. Always good, never dominant. Even still, Gartner put up nine 40-goal seasons, and an absurd sixteen 30-goal campaigns. Sundin would still need five more to match that, though I'll give him credit for playing in a lower scoring era. Gartner retired as the NHL's fifth-highest all-time goal-scorer, you simply can't ignore that. And as questionable is his playoff resume is, it's still at least as good as Sundin's.

Perreault: One of the games all-time great playmakers. I believe he was about fifth in all-time assists when he retired. Perreault is probably a lot closer to Sundin than most of Mats' detractors would care to ackowledge, but he still comes out on top. He has nearly twice as many playoff assists as Sundin in nearly the same number of games, and though he didn't ever win the Cup, those Buffalo teams of the 70's are considered one of the best to never win.

Delvecchio: A fair comparison, but Delvecchio was second only to Howe in all-time points when he retired, and put up nearly 1300 of them in an era where 700 could get you into the Hall. Also a key player on a couple of Cup-winning teams.

Modano: The playoffs are the key. Modano's playoff resume dwarfs Sundin's. And Modano was, IMO, arguably the best two-way center in the game for several years. A HOFer in my books for sure.

Goulet: I'll give you Goulet, there's not a lot that separates him from Sundin. Goulet did string together consecutive seasons of 42-57-56-55-53-49-48 goals however. His peak was likely a little better than Sundin's.

Federko: Not much argument here, but Federko did once tie for the playoff scoring lead in a year that his team didn't even reach the finals.

Sittler: Indeed, very comparable to Sundin. Their careers as Leaf greats follow a very similar pattern.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I think overall Forsberg had a better career than Lindros or Neely despite playing fewer games though. He finished in the top-5 scoring 4 times, top-10 6 times, was a First-Team all star three times, has a Hart and an Art Ross, was a dominant playoff performer and has three Cups. While it's nice that the others played more games, should it really be relevant if they were't much more than above average players during those extra games they accumulated?

That's the crucial question. And I don't have the answer, it's pretty much a matter of personal opinion. I find that I generally value longevity a little more than most people. That's why to me, Neely, Lindros, and Forsberg are all tough calls on the HOF, whereas they're all locks to some people (those who put big emphasis on peak value). I'd also agree that Forsberg's Stanley Cups and multiple top-5 scoring finishes probably give him a slightly better career than the other two.

 

[Sens Rule]

Points per game:

Selänne 1.090
Shanahan 0.909

Goals per game:

Selänne 0.519
Shanahan 0.441

Assists per game:

Selänne 0.572
Shanahan 0.468

Top 10 scorer:

Selänne 6 times
Shanahan 2 times

Top goal scorer:

Selänne 3 times
Shanahan 0 times

100 point seasons:

Selänne 4
Shanahan 1

50 goal seasons:

Selänne 3
Shanahan 2

Career highs:

Points:

Selänne 132
Shanahan 102

Goals:

Selänne 76
Shanahan 52

Assists:

Selänne 68
Shanahan 50

All star selections:

Selänne 4 (2 first & 2 second)
Shanahan 3 (2 first & 1 second)

All star games:

Selänne 10
Shanahan 8

30 goal seasons:
Selanne 8
Shanahan 12

Games including Playoffs:
Selanne 1041
Shanhan 1610 and counting

Goals including Playoffs:
Selanne 569
Shanahan 694 and counting

Points including Playoffs:
Selanne 1197
Shanahan 1438 and counting

Penalty Minutes including playoffs: (this is not a bad thing)
Selanne 491
Shanahan 2707 and counting

Fights:
Selanne - None
Shanahan - Many

Cups:
Selanne - One
Shanahan - Three

Seasons:
Selanne 14
Shanahan 20

I totally agree Selanne had a few better seasons and a higher peak than Shanahan. But Shanahan has had a better career.

 

[WHA Euro]

30 goal seasons:
Selanne 8
Shanahan 12

Games including Playoffs:
Selanne 1041
Shanhan 1610 and counting

Goals including Playoffs:
Selanne 569
Shanahan 694 and counting

Points including Playoffs:
Selanne 1197
Shanahan 1438 and counting

Penalty Minutes including playoffs: (this is not a bad thing)
Selanne 491
Shanahan 2707 and counting

Fights:
Selanne - None
Shanahan - Many

Cups:
Selanne - One
Shanahan - Three

Seasons:
Selanne 14
Shanahan 20

I totally agree Selanne had a few better seasons and a higher peak than Shanahan. But Shanahan has had a better career.

A longer career is not same as a better career.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Selanne also did at a historically more competitive position (RW vs. LW).

Shanahan does bring more intangibles and had more playoff success, but Selanne was a far better regular season performer.

Selanne was a slightly better regular season performer. You're right about Shanahan's intangibles for sure. Basically, Teemu was a better point-scorer (albeit not by a wide margin) while Shanahan was better at everything else, and did it a lot longer (assuming Selanne is indeed retired).

 

[WHA Euro]

Selanne was a slightly better regular season performer. You're right about Shanahan's intangibles for sure. Basically, Teemu was a better goal-scorer (albeit not by a wide margin) while Shanahan was better at everything else, and did it a lot longer (assuming Selanne is indeed retired).

Selänne was a better playmaker than Shanahan.

 

[pitseleh]

Selanne was a slightly better regular season performer. You're right about Shanahan's intangibles for sure. Basically, Teemu was a better goal-scorer (albeit not by a wide margin) while Shanahan was better at everything else, and did it a lot longer (assuming Selanne is indeed retired).

To me, the difference between 6 top-10 finishes and 2 as well as Selanne having 3 goal scoring crowns (something very few players can claim) is significant independent of how much longer Shanahan did it for. But it goes back to, as you said, how much you value longevity.

 

[Sens Rule]

I'm not comparing Sundin to Gillies and Duff, he's clearly better. I'm saying the fact that he's better shouldn't automatically get him in.

What's your point with all those names you brought up? They're basically all border-line HOFers, just like I'm saying Sundin is.

Robitaille: 8 consecutive 40-goal seasons. A lot of people seem to forget just how good of a goal scorer he was, and he was an able playmaker as well. Also a reasonably good playoff record (cleary better than Sundin's), even if his teams didn't often go far. He's the all-time leader in career goals and points, as well as single-season goals and points for a left winger (yes, I know it's a historically weak position). I'd say Robitaille should clearly get in before Sundin.

Gartner: Probably a pretty good comparison to Sundin, probably the two most consistent players ever. Always good, never dominant. Even still, Gartner put up nine 40-goal seasons, and an absurd sixteen 30-goal campaigns. Sundin would still need five more to match that, though I'll give him credit for playing in a lower scoring era. Gartner retired as the NHL's fifth-highest all-time goal-scorer, you simply can't ignore that. And as questionable is his playoff resume is, it's still at least as good as Sundin's.

Perreault: One of the games all-time great playmakers. I believe he was about fifth in all-time assists when he retired. Perreault is probably a lot closer to Sundin than most of Mats' detractors would care to ackowledge, but he still comes out on top. He has nearly twice as many playoff assists as Sundin in nearly the same number of games, and though he didn't ever win the Cup, those Buffalo teams of the 70's are considered one of the best to never win.

Delvecchio: A fair comparison, but Delvecchio was second only to Howe in all-time points when he retired, and put up nearly 1300 of them in an era where 700 could get you into the Hall. Also a key player on a couple of Cup-winning teams.

Modano: The playoffs are the key. Modano's playoff resume dwarfs Sundin's. And Modano was, IMO, arguably the best two-way center in the game for several years. A HOFer in my books for sure.

Goulet: I'll give you Goulet, there's not a lot that separates him from Sundin. Goulet did string together consecutive seasons of 42-57-56-55-53-49-48 goals however. His peak was likely a little better than Sundin's.

Federko: Not much argument here, but Federko did once tie for the playoff scoring lead in a year that his team didn't even reach the finals.

Sittler: Indeed, very comparable to Sundin. Their careers as Leaf greats follow a very similar pattern.

My point is you refer to these guys as "bascially border-line HHOFers" but I could bring up another 20 of these guys that are not debated as really poor HHOF choices. They are basically AVERAGE HHOFer's not borderline. I mean if the HHOF only recognized the Gretzky's and Bossy's and Potvin's and Bourque's and Coffey's then Sundin is indeed not a HHOFer.... but the HHOF lets in many players similar or less than Sundin. And no one with as long and consistently great career as Sundin has ever not been elected to the HHOF eventually.

Maybe the HHOF should be more strict as to it's selections but it never has been... ever. So Sundin is pretty much an average HHOFer not a borderline case. IMO anyway.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

A longer career is not same as a better career.

But when the careers are quite similar, at least stats-wise, longer is generally going to mean better. It's not like Shanahan is just barely hanging on and padding his career numbers, he's still a very good player.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Selänne was a better playmaker than Shanahan.

My mistake, I meant point-scorer.

 

[arrbez]

Goulet a better player than Sittler?!?!?
Maybe in absolute, but Michel Goulet is IMO a top-20 LW in the game. I wonder if Sittler is top-50 when it comes to C's.

Not to comment on your actual rating of the players here, but the centre position is MUCH deeper than the wing positions. It's not at all fair to centres to be compared in that regard. Off the top of my head, I'm fairly certain Sittler would be one of the top 20 LWers too if he had played that position.

 

[Sens Rule]

To me, the difference between 6 top-10 finishes and 2 as well as Selanne having 3 goal scoring crowns (something very few players can claim) is significant independent of how much longer Shanahan did it for. But it goes back to, as you said, how much you value longevity.

At his peak Selanne was better. Perhaps he did have a better career than Shanahan but I don't think so. Selanne really was inconsistent season to season ... I think purely due to injuries. Selanne could have been a Bossy or Kurri player had he not had that injury his second year. Then the San Jose and Avs years were not good... again due to injuries I think.

Thinking of a few of the better scoring wingers that played during Selanne's career.... Bure, Mogilny, Robitaille, Hull, Shanahan. I'd take Hull first without a doubt, Shanahan second because he was a power forward that brought more aside from scoring than the other's I listed, then Selanne because he could actually use his teamates and was a playmaker unlike Bure who I would take next, then Robitaille, then Mogilny.

 

[Sens Rule]

Not to comment on your actual rating of the players here, but the centre position is MUCH deeper than the wing positions. It's not at all fair to centres to be compared in that regard. Off the top of my head, I'm fairly certain Sittler would be one of the top 20 LWers too if he had played that position.

Goulet was a great goal scorer. But he got to play with one of the best playmaker's EVER in Stastny.

Look at the top 20 forwards in almost any era. Probably 60% of them are centres. 25% RW and 15% LW.

 

[MXD]

Not to comment on your actual rating of the players here, but the centre position is MUCH deeper than the wing positions. It's not at all fair to centres to be compared in that regard. Off the top of my head, I'm fairly certain Sittler would be one of the top 20 LWers too if he had played that position.

On the other hand... it's much easier to find a Sundin-like caliber center than to find a Goulet-like caliber LW.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

My point is you refer to these guys as "bascially border-line HHOFers" but I could bring up another 20 of these guys that are not debated as really poor HHOF choices. They are basically AVERAGE HHOFer's not borderline. I mean if the HHOF only recognized the Gretzky's and Bossy's and Potvin's and Bourque's and Coffey's then Sundin is indeed not a HHOFer.... but the HHOF lets in many players similar or less than Sundin. And no one with as long and consistently great career as Sundin has ever not been elected to the HHOF eventually.

Maybe the HHOF should be more strict as to it's selections but it never has been... ever. So Sundin is pretty much an average HHOFer not a borderline case. IMO anyway.

Looking over the list of HOFers, I'll admit there are a lot more guys who I would deem borderline than I expected to find. Bill Mosienko certainly stood out as surprising to name one. Yeah, based on what the Hall actually is, I'll concede that Sundin probably deserves to be in there afterall. But going back to what I said earlier, based on that, you probably have to induct 30 guys from the 1990-2005 span, which just seems insanely high to me, but maybe that's the way it has always been.

 

[Vector]

Looking over the list of HOFers, I'll admit there are a lot more guys who I would deem borderline than I expected to find. Bill Mosienko certainly stood out as surprising to name one. Yeah, based on what the Hall actually is, I'll concede that Sundin probably deserves to be in there afterall. But going back to what I said earlier, based on that, you probably have to induct 30 guys from the 1990-2005 span, which just seems insanely high to me, but maybe that's the way it has always been.

How many guys were inducted from 1975-1990? I'm generally curious.

 

[arrbez]

On the other hand... it's much easier to find a Sundin-like caliber center than to find a Goulet-like caliber LW.

that's my point exactly...Goulet's overall status in the game looks much better compared to LW's than it does compared to centres.

The majority of great forwards play centre because it generally has the most impact on the game (and is therefore a position they're placed in as a youth superstar).

10 of the top 20 scorers in the NHL are centres, and this is about average for any given year.

There's 70 centres in the hall, and 75 LW and RW combined. So it stands to reason that it's a lot harder to crack the top-20 at the centre position than it is on the wings. It's also the reason why guys like Mickey Redmond and Steve Shutt have more allstar selections than centres like Yzerman and Stastny.

 

[pitseleh]

How many guys were in ducted from 1975-1990? I'm generally curious.

If pnep or Hockey Outsider have the numbers, I'd be particularly interested in the number of HoF players that played during each decade. I think it'd be surprisingly high. I bet you'd see at least 30 guys who had peaks between 1930 and WWII in the Hall.

Off the top of my head:

LW - Doug Bentley, Busher Jackson, Roy Conacher, Sweeney Schriner, Ace Bailey, Woody Dumart, Toe Blake, Syd Howe.

C - Bill Cowley, Joe Primeau, Marty Barry, Milt Schmidt, Hooley Smith, Cooney Weiland, Syl Apps Sr.

RW - Charlie Conacher, Bobby Bauer, Gordie Drillon, Bryan Hextall Sr.

D - King Clancy, Eddie Shore, Red Horner, Hap Day, Ebbie Goodfellow, Art Coulter, Dit Clapper, Earl Seibert, Babe Siebert, Lionel Conacher, Sylvio Mantha.

G - Chuck Gardiner, Tiny Thompson, Frank Brimsek.

That's 33 and that's not including players like Morenz, Joliat, Stewart, Boucher, Cook or Bentley who were still very good players during that era. I'm sure I missed a bunch too. Some of these guys were borderline and had great seasons after that point (Syl Apps and Roy Conacher are two) while some were stars before hand (King Clancy and Hooley Smith the most notable of the bunch).