Potential Hall of Famers

[Jesus]

Why would Sundin and Modano be considered borderline?

Sundin piled up well over 500+ goals and 1,200 points (those kind of numbers would generally be automatic, unless your name is Dino Ciccirelli), significant international achievements with Team Sweden and ace-in-the hole captain of the Maple Leafs for years (don't think for a second that this won't carry weight).

Modano? How could he not be certain? Similar career numbers to Sundin's with top American point-getter in his pocket. Developed solid two-way play. Stanley Cup. World Cup. Is there something missing from his resume'?

so do you consider Roenick a shoe-in for the hall of fame...very similar numbers to Sundin.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Sundin is definitely borderline.

His regular season resume is enough to warrant consideration for sure, but his lack of playoff success can't swing the vote to a clear "yes". He is a classic case of good for a long time, but never great. Pretty much a perennial 70-80 point scorer throughout his career, but he's done it for so long that he does merit consideration despite a lack of major awards and all-star team selections.

Did Sundin ever strike fear into anybody? Rarely (at least from what I observed) did opposing teams go out there worrying about how they were going to shut down Sundin. It was pretty much "well, he'll get his point, but he's not going to take the game over". Pretty similar to Mark Recchi in fact, but the kicker is that Recchi had a number of strong playoff runs and was a key part of two championship teams.

 

[Theron]

Dave Andreychuk?

5th most games played in NHL history with 1639.
11th for most goals scored in NHL history with 640.
Tied with Denis Savard for 23rd in league history with 1338 points.
Holds the record for most NHL career power play goals with 270.
1991-92 NHL Power Play Goals Leader with 28.
1992-93 NHL Power Play Goals Leader with 32.
Oldest player to a make Stanley Cup Finals debut: 40 years, 7 months (May 25, 2004).
Played in NHL All-Star Game in 1990 and 1994.

GP 1639 G 640 A 698 Pts 1338

Id say Cujo is borderline aswell.

 

[Blades of Glory]

Locks:
Sakic
Jagr
Shanahan
Chelios
Fedorov
Brodeur
Lidstrom
Pronger
Niedermayer
Hasek
Robitaille
Forsberg
Modano

Would be very surprised if they didn't get in:
Sundin
Recchi
Lindros

Modano is a lock. Top American point producer ever. Strong playoff performer, with a Stanley Cup victory (played with a broken wrist, no less). Sundin is also very likely to get in.

 

[John Belushi]

No talk of Alfredsson? IMO he has a better case than Sundin or Naslund.

 

[Jesus]

No talk of Alfredsson? IMO he has a better case than Sundin or Naslund.

state the case because I do not see it.

Sundin has the better career
Naslund has the better peak

 

[MadArcand]

Out of those in the first post, I can see only Zubov in. He seems a bit underrated to me, he's comparable with Niedermayer in my opinion. And the Murphy analogy was spot-on as well.

Mogilny has a good peak but is otherwise rather meh, so he falls short.

Naslund and Chara deserve no consideration whatsoever.

 

[BlueAndWhite]

Sundin is definitely borderline.

His regular season resume is enough to warrant consideration for sure, but his lack of playoff success can't swing the vote to a clear "yes". He is a classic case of good for a long time, but never great. Pretty much a perennial 70-80 point scorer throughout his career, but he's done it for so long that he does merit consideration despite a lack of major awards and all-star team selections.

Did Sundin ever strike fear into anybody? Rarely (at least from what I observed) did opposing teams go out there worrying about how they were going to shut down Sundin. It was pretty much "well, he'll get his point, but he's not going to take the game over". Pretty similar to Mark Recchi in fact, but the kicker is that Recchi had a number of strong playoff runs and was a key part of two championship teams.

You must have not watched many games of Sundin then. To say that Sundin never struck fear into anyone, nor did opposing teams try to shut him down, nor did he take over a game is one of the most ludicrous statements I've come across on these boards. Your statement makes it seem like you are talking about Ray Whitney not Mats Sundin.

Sundin has been the Maple Leafs for more than a decade. Any success they've had is largely due to his offensive prowess (Belfour and Joseph were important as well during their brief stay here).

Sundin is a lock IMO. And he's a lock based on what the HHOF is, not what it should be.

He's going to finish with 500+ goals, 1300+ points (mainly in the dead puck era) if he retires at the end of the season (and considering his current level of play he could easily play another 2 more years).

He's had two end of the year All-Star team nods (as a C).
He's finished in the top ten in scoring multiple times.
He's played in 9/10 All-Star games.
He is either second or tied for first for most OT goals in NHL history.
He is top ?ten? (can someone confirm or deny this for me?) in game winning goals in NHL history.
He is the all-time leader in points and goals for the Toronto Maple Leafs.*
First European #1 pick ever.*
Longest serving European captain ever.*
He's made it to five World Cup/Canada Cup/World Championship/Olympic All-Star teams, has always been the captain for Sweden and won an Olympic gold. One of the best international players over the last 15 years.*
The only Swedish player to score 500 goals and 1000 points.*

The last few points with the asterisk * alone (as in each point) shouldn't carry enough weight but when you add them all to his other accomplishments, it's a resume that is HHOF worthy.

And yes, I'm a Leafs fan.

 

[Teus]

Sundin's international career, which I posted in the IIHF all-time world all-star team thread:

*World Championships: 49 games, 25 goals, 31 assists, 56 points
*Olympics: 16 games, 11 goals, 9 assists, 20 points
*World Cup / Canada Cup: 14 games, 7 goals, 11 assists, 18 games
*Total stats: 79 games, 43 goals, 51 assists, 94 points
*Olympic Gold medal 05/06
*Olympic Most points 01/02
*World Championship Gold medal 90/91, 91/92, 97/98
*World Championship Silver medal 89/90, 02/03
*World Championship Bronze medal 93/94, 00/01
*World Championship Most points 93/94
*World Championship Most assists 93/94
*World Championship Best Forward 91/92, 02/03
*World Championship All-Star Team 91/92, 97/98, 02/03
*World Championship winning goal in 1991, when he fooled Fetisov of all people and scored the 2-1 (final score) goal in the final
*In 8 of the 13 World Championships/Olympics/Canada Cups/World Cups he has played in, he has been the Swedish player with most points

Can also add, to show his consistency in the NHL, that he is together with Jagr the only player with 70+ points in 14 consecutive seasons.

 

[pitseleh]

Sundin is a lock IMO. And he's a lock based on what the HHOF is, not what it should be.

I think this is the key. I wouldn't vote Mats in personally, but based upon what the HoF criteria is, he's a virtual lock. And not even compared to borderline guys like Gillies or Duff - I'd say he's had a similar/better career than some of the less criticized picks, like a Sittler or a McDonald.

 

[Sens Rule]

I think this is the key. I wouldn't vote Mats in personally, but based upon what the HoF criteria is, he's a virtual lock. And not even compared to borderline guys like Gillies or Duff - I'd say he's had a similar/better career than some of the less criticized picks, like a Sittler or a McDonald.

People overlook how truly dominant Sundin has been. Sure he was never a top 3 player in the world but he has been a top 10 or top 20 player for many seasons. He isn't just a guy that has been very good for a long time. He is a player that has been outstanding for most of his career. And he has been the best player on his team.... teams that most often made the playoffs.... for more than half of his career.

He is a better player than Andreychuk or Federko or Gartner or Robitaille. He is not a Dave Taylor, Steve Larmer type of player.... more similar to a Hawerchuk or Sittler or Perrault. He is a lock as a HHOFer and deservedly.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Shanahan is not a ppg player and a problem in the locker room(while in Saint Louis)

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

People overlook how truly dominant Sundin has been. Sure he was never a top 3 player in the world but he has been a top 10 or top 20 player for many seasons.

That seems the textbook defination of good but not dominant.

 

[Sens Rule]

That seems the textbook defination of good but not dominant.

Mike Fisher is a good player. Darcy Tucker is a good player. Holmstrom is a good player. Chris Drury is a good player. Sundin is a dominant player.

 

[MXD]

Mike Fisher is a good player. Darcy Tucker is a good player. Holmstrom is a good player. Chris Drury is a good player. Sundin is a dominant player.

And Bobby Orr was an ubermansch?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

You must have not watched many games of Sundin then. To say that Sundin never struck fear into anyone, nor did opposing teams try to shut him down, nor did he take over a game is one of the most ludicrous statements I've come across on these boards. Your statement makes it seem like you are talking about Ray Whitney not Mats Sundin.

Sundin has been the Maple Leafs for more than a decade. Any success they've had is largely due to his offensive prowess (Belfour and Joseph were important as well during their brief stay here).

Sundin is a lock IMO. And he's a lock based on what the HHOF is, not what it should be.

He's going to finish with 500+ goals, 1300+ points (mainly in the dead puck era) if he retires at the end of the season (and considering his current level of play he could easily play another 2 more years).

He's had two end of the year All-Star team nods (as a C).
He's finished in the top ten in scoring multiple times.
He's played in 9/10 All-Star games.
He is either second or tied for first for most OT goals in NHL history.
He is top ?ten? (can someone confirm or deny this for me?) in game winning goals in NHL history.
He is the all-time leader in points and goals for the Toronto Maple Leafs.*
First European #1 pick ever.*
Longest serving European captain ever.*
He's made it to five World Cup/Canada Cup/World Championship/Olympic All-Star teams, has always been the captain for Sweden and won an Olympic gold. One of the best international players over the last 15 years.*
The only Swedish player to score 500 goals and 1000 points.*

The last few points with the asterisk * alone (as in each point) shouldn't carry enough weight but when you add them all to his other accomplishments, it's a resume that is HHOF worthy.

And yes, I'm a Leafs fan.

OK, if you're calling him a lock based on what the Hall is, instead of what it should be, then I'm more inclined to agree, but to clear up some points of contention:

I'm not saying opposing teams weren't wary of his abilities or declined to stick their checking line on him, but I have never got the impression that teams went into games terrified of what Sundin might do to them.

To be a "lock" in my books, the player has to have at least been top-10 in the game at some point, top-20 for a reasonable period of time, or a playoff beast. Sundin has been none of those, top-20 for maybe two or three seasons. A good leader, a good producer, a classy guy, and I wouldn't complain if he got in, but he'd definitely be in the lower cut of HOFers. In other words, a boderline selection.

As for international play, the Hall doesn't seem to really care. I'm not saying that's right of them, but it is what it is. Kharlamov and Tretiak are the only two players I can think of inducted based largely on international success, and it is generally believed that both would have been all-time greats in the NHL had the situation allowed for it. IF the Hall were to actually take Sundin's international record into account, his case would be bolstered significantly.

The only active guys that should be no-brainer selections/locks IMO:

Sakic
Jagr
Brodeur
Hasek
Lidstrom
Shanahan

Edit: Chelios as well

I think people are being far too generous with who they consider sure-fire selections. To me, Sundin, Recchi, Pronger, Fedorov, Niedermayer, Forsberg, Blake and Selanne, amongst others, are all up in the air. They can't go and induct 30 players who achieved prominence in the 90's/early 00's era, it's simply too many. Some guys will have to be left out.

 

[WHA Euro]

The only active guys that should be no-brainer selections/locks IMO:

Sakic
Jagr
Brodeur
Hasek
Lidstrom
Shanahan

I think people are being far too generous with who they consider sure-fire selections. To me, Sundin, Recchi, Pronger, Fedorov, Niedermayer, Forsberg, Blake and Selanne, amongst others, are all up in the air. They can't go and induct 30 players who achieved prominence in the 90's/early 00's era, it's simply too many. Some guys will have to be left out.

How is Shanahan better than Selänne?

 

[pitseleh]

I'd say that Forsberg and Fedorov are virtual locks from your list, as well as Chelios (who wasn't mentioned). Going by that criteria, I don't think Shanahan should be considered a lock either (especially if Selanne and Pronger aren't either).

 

[BlueAndWhite]

OK, if you're calling him a lock based on what the Hall is, instead of what it should be, then I'm more inclined to agree, but to clear up some points of contention:

I'm not saying opposing teams weren't wary of his abilities or declined to stick their checking line on him, but I have never got the impression that teams went into games terrified of what Sundin might do to them.

To be a "lock" in my books, the player has to have at least been top-10 in the game at some point, top-20 for a reasonable period of time, or a playoff beast. Sundin has been none of those, top-20 for maybe two or three seasons. A good leader, a good producer, a classy guy, and I wouldn't complain if he got in, but he'd definitely be in the lower cut of HOFers. In other words, a boderline selection.

As for international play, the Hall doesn't seem to really care. I'm not saying that's right of them, but it is what it is. Kharlamov and Tretiak are the only two players I can think of inducted based largely on international success, and it is generally believed that both would have been all-time greats in the NHL had the situation allowed for it. IF the Hall were to actually take Sundin's international record into account, his case would be bolstered significantly.

As I said earlier, based on your impressions of Sundin, you must have not watched him play often. I don't know how you quantify "terror" but everything you think that Sundin is not, he actually is.

He's been much more than a top 20 guy 2-3 times in his career, like I said earlier this is Mats Sundin we're talking about not Ray friggen Whitney. You don't have that many top ten finishes in scoring AND make it to a couple of end of the year all-star teams AND play in that many All-Star games AND register that many goals and assists by being just a top 20 guy a few times in your career.

And as I made note to mention with my asterisk points that they alone don't carry much weight but when you add them ALL up, ALONG with Sundin's other NHL accomplishments, you get a lock for the HHOF.

As for your list, I see several people you left off that certifiable locks in my mind for the HHOF as it exists. I don't get what people constantly base their admission criteria on their own set, when that isn't what determines who gets in or does not.

 

[Eagle Eye Cherry]

Come on, without questions. its got to be Aki Berg...

 

[pitseleh]

As I said earlier, based on your impressions of Sundin, you must have not watched him play often. I don't know how you quantify "terror" but everything you think that Sundin is not, he actually is.

He's been much more than a top 20 guy 2-3 times in his career, like I said earlier this is Mats Sundin we're talking about not Ray friggen Whitney. You don't have that many top ten finishes in scoring AND make it to a couple of end of the year all-star teams AND play in that many All-Star games AND register that many goals and assists by being just a top 20 guy a few times in your career.

And as I made note to mention with my asterisk points that they alone don't carry much weight but when you add them ALL up, ALONG with Sundin's other NHL accomplishments, you get a lock for the HHOF.

As for your list, I see several people you left off that certifiable locks in my mind for the HHOF as it exists. I don't get what people constantly base their admission criteria on their own set, when that isn't what determines who gets in or does not.

Sundin hasn't been that dominant a scorer (top-10 only twice in his career, once #4, once #7). He's definitely been a top-20 forward for most of his career, but I have a hard time saying he's consistently been a top-20 player over the same time period.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

As I said earlier, based on your impressions of Sundin, you must have not watched him play often. I don't know how you quantify "terror" but everything you think that Sundin is not, he actually is.

He's been much more than a top 20 guy 2-3 times in his career, like I said earlier this is Mats Sundin we're talking about not Ray friggen Whitney. You don't have that many top ten finishes in scoring AND make it to a couple of end of the year all-star teams AND play in that many All-Star games AND register that many goals and assists by being just a top 20 guy a few times in your career.

And as I made note to mention with my asterisk points that they alone don't carry much weight but when you add them ALL up, ALONG with Sundin's other NHL accomplishments, you get a lock for the HHOF.

As for your list, I see several people you left off that certifiable locks in my mind for the HHOF as it exists. I don't get what people constantly base their admission criteria on their own set, when that isn't what determines who gets in or does not.

Alright, when? When was Sundin, for more than two or three years a top-20 player in the game? When was ever a top-10 player?

I don't think it's right to say "well, Duff and Gillies got in, so that means all these guys need to go in as well". Gillies and Duff were mistakes, you can't base addmission criteria on them or else you just end up with more mistakes.

 

[nik jr]

The only active guys that should be no-brainer selections/locks IMO:

Sakic
Jagr
Brodeur
Hasek
Lidstrom
Shanahan

Edit: Chelios as well

I think people are being far too generous with who they consider sure-fire selections. To me, Sundin, Recchi, Pronger, Fedorov, Niedermayer, Forsberg, Blake and Selanne, amongst others, are all up in the air. They can't go and induct 30 players who achieved prominence in the 90's/early 00's era, it's simply too many. Some guys will have to be left out.

i really don't see how shanahan is a lock but fedorov and forsberg, who have won the hart and were significantly better in the playoffs, aren't. both should go in before shanahan.

imo, selanne has as good a case as shanahan.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

How is Shanahan better than Selänne?

More goals, assists, and points in both regular season and playoffs, as well as two more Stanley Cups.

While Selanne was primarily just a scorer, Shanahan could hit and fight as well as score, he was a more complete player. While Selanne has the huge 76-goal campaign to his credit, I think a lot of people would be surprised to know that him and Shanahan are tied with six 40+ goal seasons each.

But what kills Selanne's chances in this argument is the prolonged slump he went into in what should have been highly productive years. From 2001-2004, Teemu looked like a guy who should probably retire. His resurgance after the lockout is what has gotten the ball rolling on his HOF chances. For the record, I definitely wouldn't have a problem with Selanne getting in, and I probably would vote for his inclusion in the Hall.

Shanahan has been consistent throughout his career, and still doesn't show signs of slowing down. When it's all said and done, Shanny could easily be top-10 all-time in goals and top-15 in all-time points, all while being a well-rounded, highly respected leader in the game. There's simply no way you can't include Shanahan.

As for Pronger, he definitely has a shot at the Hall, but it's premature. He's not yet reached 1000 games played, and has just a single first-team all-star selection. Not to mention the constant undisciplined play and the entire Edmonton fiasco, definitely things that detract from his case. Of course, he does have the Hart, and now a Cup, obviously two crucial things in his favour. But ask yourself this: Without the monster 1999-00 campaign, is Pronger even being discussed more than a Zubov or Blake? In my estimation he has gotten a TON of mileage out of that one great season, be that right or wrong.

 

[canucksfan]

Sundin's international career, which I posted in the IIHF all-time world all-star team thread:

*World Championships: 49 games, 25 goals, 31 assists, 56 points
*Olympics: 16 games, 11 goals, 9 assists, 20 points
*World Cup / Canada Cup: 14 games, 7 goals, 11 assists, 18 games
*Total stats: 79 games, 43 goals, 51 assists, 94 points
*Olympic Gold medal 05/06
*Olympic Most points 01/02
*World Championship Gold medal 90/91, 91/92, 97/98
*World Championship Silver medal 89/90, 02/03
*World Championship Bronze medal 93/94, 00/01
*World Championship Most points 93/94
*World Championship Most assists 93/94
*World Championship Best Forward 91/92, 02/03
*World Championship All-Star Team 91/92, 97/98, 02/03
*World Championship winning goal in 1991, when he fooled Fetisov of all people and scored the 2-1 (final score) goal in the final
*In 8 of the 13 World Championships/Olympics/Canada Cups/World Cups he has played in, he has been the Swedish player with most points

Can also add, to show his consistency in the NHL, that he is together with Jagr the only player with 70+ points in 14 consecutive seasons.

Until the HHOF cares about international play all those nice stats you put out there are useless.