Player Discussion Podkolzin (PbK) Thread Part 5

[mriswith]

Podkolzin is barely 20 years old and has played 2 games in the NHL. Green's "treatment" of Podkolzin is just fine and appropriate IMO. In anything, but especially (I imagine) in highest level pro sports, a big part of transitioning to that higher level is about gaining confidence. Gaining confidence comes through having success. Sure a lot of the learning will come through trying and initially failing but that has to be managed so as to not create potentially irreversible damage. I'm sure Podkolzin came away from that game feeling absolutely great about himself. If he had been on the ice for a Flyers GWG ,maybe not so much.

Players develop by being challenged without getting overwhelmed, getting as much ice time and opportunity within that range as possible, by being allowed to make some mistakes that result from creativity and have a long enough leash that they aren't playing scared, and most importantly by having consistent expectations and consistent feedback.

Travis Green's MO is to be unpredictable, staple a guy who was having a great first and second period to the bench in the third, scratch them after their best game (Juolevi), wildly overreact to a small mistake when the broader context (rest of the game) is good, and all in all ensure that players play like they're terrified to make a mistake while also having no idea what is expected of them.

It's always hard to measure failure of development but Greens approach is atrocious. The worst part is that the players aren't even learning anything from this, at least other coaches that stomp the offensive creativity out of their players turn them into good defensive players in exchange, with Green we don't even get that.

 

[iceburg]

Players develop by being challenged without getting overwhelmed, getting as much ice time and opportunity within that range as possible, by being allowed to make some mistakes that result from creativity and have a long enough leash that they aren't playing scared, and most importantly by having consistent expectations and consistent feedback.

Travis Green's MO is to be unpredictable, staple a guy who was having a great first and second period to the bench in the third, scratch them after their best game (Juolevi), wildly overreact to a small mistake when the broader context (rest of the game) is good, and all in all ensure that players play like they're terrified to make a mistake while also having no idea what is expected of them.

It's always hard to measure failure of development but Greens approach is atrocious. The worst part is that the players aren't even learning anything from this, at least other coaches that stomp the offensive creativity out of their players turn them into good defensive players in exchange, with Green we don't even get that.

I agree with your first paragraph.

Green didn't fail Juolevi. Juolevi failed Juolevi.

Green has given young players who succeed a tonne of rope. Hughes, in his 2nd year, was atrocious defensively yet he was a high minute man. He was also on the PP after only a few games. Pettersson pretty much was gifted the 1C role when it wasn't clear at first that he could do it. Hoglander and Boeser were given a top 6 roles as raw rookies.

I think it's fair to say that all players don't get the same treatment as Hughes, Pettersson and Boeser. I just don't agree with you that "Green's approach is atrocious". And, given your first paragraph and the examples I cited, I'm not sure you do either.

 

[mriswith]

I agree with your first paragraph.

Green didn't fail Juolevi. Juolevi failed Juolevi.

Green has given young players who succeed a tonne of rope. Hughes, in his 2nd year, was atrocious defensively yet he was a high minute man. He was also on the PP after only a few games. Pettersson pretty much was gifted the 1C role when it wasn't clear at first that he could do it. Hoglander and Boeser were given a top 6 roles as raw rookies.

I think it's fair to say that all players don't get the same treatment as Hughes, Pettersson and Boeser. I just don't agree with you that "Green's approach is atrocious". And, given your first paragraph and the examples I cited, I'm not sure you do either.

Look Juolevi was an example of Green benching a guy right after their best game, which I used as an example of bad development, not saying Green made Juolevi bust. Juolevi's inability to skate is the biggest reason he busted here and that's on himself.

A few years ago I gave Green more rope than he deserved initially because I respected him starting Pettersson at centre and Benning had consistently given him a terrible roster. However, unlike Green I don't focus on just one thing and ignore the body of work. It's been very clear since then that he is atrocious at player development and handling young players. This is evidenced by none of them developing since they came here, by some of them losing significant parts of their games since coming here, some of them looking confused and lost on the ice when they didn't look like that initially, all of them playing with lower confidence, etc. I also don't credit him for Hughes' ice time because it was obvious what Hughes was from his last couple games the season before.

Like Pettersson was very obviously our best player from the minute his skates touched the ice in his first game. It blows my mind a bit that an obvious star getting reasonable ice time contradicts the rest of the overwhelming evidence that Green is horrible with young players. Even with Pettersson, he's lost a lot of what made him special. It almost looks like he got the effort coached out of him. He's a fantastic dangler but has barely tried his moves on guys over the last year and a half. He was a defensive monster at first, skating hard and hustling to break up plays and steal the puck, he doesn't look anything like that player anymore. And this is Green's best work?

 

[Aphid Attraction]

I didn’t watch the first half of the game so I can’t comment, but I will because I am opinionated…

What pisses me off is that if you play bad you get dropped off your line, you miss a few shifts. but when you make up for it by ripping a beauty, then you have attoned for your sins…

What Green does is break young players spirit by never giving a pathway to make it right, and eventually they loose any sense of risk taking and creativity.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I didn’t watch the first half of the game so I can’t comment, but I will because I am opinionated…

What pisses me off is that if you play bad you get dropped off your line, you miss a few shifts. but when you make up for it by ripping a beauty, then you have attoned for your sins…

What Green does is break young players spirit by never giving a pathway to make it right, and eventually they loose any sense of risk taking and creativity.

Not really...If that were the case ,Quinn Hughes would have barely see the ice in his rookie season..Rathbone and Hogs spirit isn't broken..Podz is getting eased in, and once he gets used to the pace..He'll be a regular.

 

[iceburg]

Look Juolevi was an example of Green benching a guy right after their best game, which I used as an example of bad development, not saying Green made Juolevi bust. Juolevi's inability to skate is the biggest reason he busted here and that's on himself.

A few years ago I gave Green more rope than he deserved initially because I respected him starting Pettersson at centre and Benning had consistently given him a terrible roster. However, unlike Green I don't focus on just one thing and ignore the body of work. It's been very clear since then that he is atrocious at player development and handling young players. This is evidenced by none of them developing since they came here, by some of them losing significant parts of their games since coming here, some of them looking confused and lost on the ice when they didn't look like that initially, all of them playing with lower confidence, etc. I also don't credit him for Hughes' ice time because it was obvious what Hughes was from his last couple games the season before.

Like Pettersson was very obviously our best player from the minute his skates touched the ice in his first game. It blows my mind a bit that an obvious star getting reasonable ice time contradicts the rest of the overwhelming evidence that Green is horrible with young players. Even with Pettersson, he's lost a lot of what made him special. It almost looks like he got the effort coached out of him. He's a fantastic dangler but has barely tried his moves on guys over the last year and a half. He was a defensive monster at first, skating hard and hustling to break up plays and steal the puck, he doesn't look anything like that player anymore. And this is Green's best work?

You obviously have some strong opinions on Green that won't be changed by anything I may say. I respect your right to have your opinion. I've lived long enough to know that most things have nuances. Is Green a perfect coach? Far from it. Does his approach slow, stall or regress the development of some young players? Possibly. As a general rule does his approach destroy the development of young players full stop (my interpretation of your position)? I highly doubt it.

Every player is different. Every player has a different skill set and a different psyche. Every player will react differently to a coaching style.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

Not really...If that were the case ,Quinn Hughes would have barely see the ice in his rookie season..Rathbone and Hogs spirit isn't broken..Podz is getting eased in, and once he gets used to the pace..He'll be a regular.

The two cases that are the exception are Peterson and Hughes and they were dam near the finished product… The rest were chewed up and spat out and the same will happen to Pod and Hoglander under Green eventually… Although Hoglander seems to have the attatude that will see him running threw brick walls longer then most.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The two cases that are the exception are Peterson and Hughes and they were dam near the finished product… The rest were chewed up and spat out and the same will happen to Pod and Hoglander under Green eventually… Although Hoglander seems to have the attatude that will see him running threw brick walls longer then most.

Nope..this is pretty much straight up manufactured nonsense...and seems to be prevalent with the current armchair coach crowd..Goldoblin and Hutton were not solid NHL quality, you cant blame the coach for that (Hutton said he was treated fairly by Green)..Nobody worked harder than Green to get Virtanen to the next level......and now he's going to ruin Podz and Hogs?...Your getting worked up over nothing...and living up to your username.

 

[MS]

Nope..this is pretty much straight up manufactured nonsense...and seems to be prevalent with the current armchair coach crowd..Goldoblin and Hutton were not solid NHL quality, you cant blame the coach for that (Hutton said he was treated fairly by Green)..Nobody worked harder than Green to get Virtanen to the next level......and now he's going to ruin Podz and Hogs?...Your getting worked up over nothing...and living up to your username.

Other teams seem to have players that go through their system and start out as 'not NHL quality' but then develop into quality players.

We do not.

We have guys that either walk onto the team as impact players or forget about it.

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

 

[mriswith]

You obviously have some strong opinions on Green that won't be changed by anything I may say. I respect your right to have your opinion. I've lived long enough to know that most things have nuances. Is Green a perfect coach? Far from it. Does his approach slow, stall or regress the development of some young players? Possibly. As a general rule does his approach destroy the development of young players full stop (my interpretation of your position)? I highly doubt it.

Every player is different. Every player has a different skill set and a different psyche. Every player will react differently to a coaching style.

Sure and the unifying theme with Green is that young players don't improve under him. None of them do.

I've developed strong opinions on Green out of frustration of several years of watching our players either stagnate or get worse under him, and realizing that's been a trend going all the way back to his AHL days. When you look at the trail of destruction he's left, he's been a bad coach at developing players for his entire career. I reserved holding an opinion on him for a long time initially, I didn't hate him right out of the gate.

If you have examples that I've missed of young players who have blossomed under Green other than Motte then I'm all ears, but otherwise yes opinions aren't going to sway me because I'm looking at his on-ice results and am infuriated by it. And when I say on-ice results I'm not even referring to his abysmal win/loss record, just strictly player development from when they started in the NHL onwards.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Other teams seem to have players that go through their system and start out as 'not NHL quality' but then develop into quality players.

We do not.

We have guys that either walk onto the team as impact players or forget about it.

We seem to be lucky that we have players that can instantly make the team...We have plenty of good 'youth' players on the team, that seem to like coach Green (most players do)..The projects we've had, haven't worked out anywhere else either ...Gaudette,Gaunce,Goldoblin, Virtanen etc...All these players had ample opportunity...At the end of the day, they are what they are.

 

[VanJack]

Not much doubt Green is easing Podkiolzin into the mix, but his work on the defensive side of the puck will determine his ice-time.

A couple of things you notice right away, is that this guy is like a cement truck on skates. Bigger guys try to hit him and tend to bounce right off. And his first-ever NHL goal was definitely a 'goal-scorers' goal. Looked the goalie off to the middle and ripped the puck in short side.

If the opinion of Miller and Pettersson mean anything, they think Podkolzin will be an important part of the team going forward. But I guess they see him in practice everyday and how hard he competes and works.

 

[Pip]

Weird game to evaluate him in. I didn’t think he played well in the first period, although he was hardly alone in that. He then scores a great goal and was promptly sat for the rest of the game.

 

[iceburg]

Sure and the unifying theme with Green is that young players don't improve under him. None of them do.

I've developed strong opinions on Green out of frustration of several years of watching our players either stagnate or get worse under him, and realizing that's been a trend going all the way back to his AHL days. When you look at the trail of destruction he's left, he's been a bad coach at developing players for his entire career. I reserved holding an opinion on him for a long time initially, I didn't hate him right out of the gate.

If you have examples that I've missed of young players who have blossomed under Green other than Motte then I'm all ears, but otherwise yes opinions aren't going to sway me because I'm looking at his on-ice results and am infuriated by it. And when I say on-ice results I'm not even referring to his abysmal win/loss record, just strictly player development from when they started in the NHL onwards.

So it's your position that Green has destroyed or at very least stalled the development of every one of the following:

Horvat (22 when Green first coached him - still very young though on an upward trajectory)
Boeser
Stecher
Demko
Hughes
Pettersson
Hoglander
Gaudette (had a bad year last year (as did many) but year 1 to year 2 was a big step)
Add Motte


And just in case you think I'm all in for Green, I think he did a disservice to Gaunce, Gadjovich, Goldobin, and Baertschi, among others. But none of those players had a high probability of being more than a replacement level player anyway.

Juolevi, Virtanen are the clear organizational misses both from draft position and development.

My point, again, is not that Green has a great effect on every player. Some players thrive and others fail, in part, because of their own skill set/psyche and, in part, because of development strategy and tactics.

Edit: adding that one can't absolve the players from all responsibility for their own development. Some guys just get it. Hughes, already considered one of the best young defensemen in the game, reportedly worked hard this summer to improve in certain areas. EP is known to work extremely hard on his skill set. Hoglander is a training beast despite (or maybe because of) his size. Goldobin never really got the fact that he needed to seriously work on some things in order to stick. Same with Virtanen.

And, since this is the Podkolzin thread, I'll add that I'm pretty confident that he will fit into the top list in time.

 

[Grumpy1]

So it's your position that Green has destroyed or at very least stalled the development of every one of the following:

Horvat (22 when Green first coached him - still very young though on an upward trajectory)
Boeser
Stecher
Demko
Hughes
Pettersson
Hoglander
Gaudette (had a bad year last year (as did many) but year 1 to year 2 was a big step)
Add Motte


And just in case you think I'm all in for Green, I think he did a disservice to Gaunce, Gadjovich, Goldobin, and Baertschi, among others. But none of those players had a high probability of being more than a replacement level player anyway.

Juolevi, Virtanen are the clear organizational misses both from draft position and development.

My point, again, is not that Green has a great effect on every player. Some players thrive and others fail, in part, because of their own skill set/psyche and, in part, because of development strategy and tactics.

Edit: adding that one can't absolve the players from all responsibility for their own development. Some guys just get it. Hughes, already considered one of the best young defensemen in the game, reportedly worked hard this summer to improve in certain areas. EP is known to work extremely hard on his skill set. Hoglander is a training beast despite (or maybe because of) his size. Goldobin never really got the fact that he needed to seriously work on some things in order to stick. Same with Virtanen.

And, since this is the Podkolzin thread, I'll add that I'm pretty confident that he will fit into the top list in time.

All those players that have you say he developed were more ready to play in the nhl. He didn’t do anything to develop them. Outside of the players that were ready for the nhl , Green hasn’t developed any of the young players

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

All those players that have you say he developed were more ready to play in the nhl. He didn’t do anything to develop them. Outside of the players that were ready for the nhl , Green hasn’t developed any of the young players

So ..which players has Green ruined..?

 

[iceburg]

All those players that have you say he developed were more ready to play in the nhl. He didn’t do anything to develop them. Outside of the players that were ready for the nhl , Green hasn’t developed any of the young players

Clearly you didn’t read my post.

 

[mriswith]

So it's your position that Green has destroyed or at very least stalled the development of every one of the following:

Horvat (22 when Green first coached him - still very young though on an upward trajectory)
Boeser
Stecher
Demko
Hughes
Pettersson
Hoglander
Gaudette (had a bad year last year (as did many) but year 1 to year 2 was a big step)
Add Motte


And just in case you think I'm all in for Green, I think he did a disservice to Gaunce, Gadjovich, Goldobin, and Baertschi, among others. But none of those players had a high probability of being more than a replacement level player anyway.

Juolevi, Virtanen are the clear organizational misses both from draft position and development.

My point, again, is not that Green has a great effect on every player. Some players thrive and others fail, in part, because of their own skill set/psyche and, in part, because of development strategy and tactics.

Edit: adding that one can't absolve the players from all responsibility for their own development. Some guys just get it. Hughes, already considered one of the best young defensemen in the game, reportedly worked hard this summer to improve in certain areas. EP is known to work extremely hard on his skill set. Hoglander is a training beast despite (or maybe because of) his size. Goldobin never really got the fact that he needed to seriously work on some things in order to stick. Same with Virtanen.

And, since this is the Podkolzin thread, I'll add that I'm pretty confident that he will fit into the top list in time.

Subtract Motte because I already discussed him. Subtract Demko because he's a goalie and Green has nothing to do with his development.

Then the answer is yes. I took a long break from following the Canucks after the Sbisa extension and only started following again in 2018 when Pettersson joined the team. None of those players left on your list have significantly improved since I started watching the team again and at least half of them have gotten worse since their rookie year. And you can add more to the list too. Like I really don't understand why you think Pettersson is an example of Green developing a player, for example, that's the one of the most glaring failures. You could argue it's all Pettersson's fault and not Greens fault, but there's no argument for him being a Green success story.

When everyone stagnates or regresses there is a common factor and when you watch how he mishandles young players it's an obviously ass backwards approach that leaves players confused and scared to make mistakes which is literally the worst possible environment for a young player to develop in. And unlike other coaches that stomp out the creativity and confidence of their players, we're not even getting strong defensive players in exchange. We're getting nothing.

My hope with Pod is he gets blessed with sufficient ice time while simultaneously not speaking English well enough to understand what Green is saying and we get a new coach next year.

 

[iceburg]

Subtract Motte because I already discussed him. Subtract Demko because he's a goalie and Green has nothing to do with his development.

Then the answer is yes. I took a long break from following the Canucks after the Sbisa extension and only started following again in 2018 when Pettersson joined the team. None of those players left on your list have significantly improved since I started watching the team again and at least half of them have gotten worse since their rookie year. And you can add more to the list too. Like I really don't understand why you think Pettersson is an example of Green developing a player, for example, that's the one of the most glaring failures. You could argue it's all Pettersson's fault and not Greens fault, but there's no argument for him being a Green success story.

When everyone stagnates or regresses there is a common factor and when you watch how he mishandles young players it's an obviously ass backwards approach that leaves players confused and scared to make mistakes which is literally the worst possible environment for a young player to develop in. And unlike other coaches that stomp out the creativity and confidence of their players, we're not even getting strong defensive players in exchange. We're getting nothing.

My hope with Pod is he gets blessed with sufficient ice time while simultaneously not speaking English well enough to understand what Green is saying and we get a new coach next year.

It’s difficult to have the discussion without some form of metric. One can make the assertion that “Green slowed Hoglanders (eg) development” or “sped his development”. But without a significant analysis it’s simply that, an assertion. Where would he be without Green’s work? What are the measurables that can support the argument one way or the other?
On the face of it Hoglander has had a very successful development path over the last 18 months. And making the argument that those that succeed, succeed in spite of Green, and those that fail, fail because of Green, is a weak position to take IMO.

It’s far more plausible to me that some thrive and some struggle under the coaching style, tactics and strategies of Green.

Given Podkolzin’s history in the Russian system of merit and politics, I’m hopeful that he will fall under the first category.

 

[geebster]

If Green plays Podkolzin the way he played Petan in the preseason or played Chiasson in the preseason and first 2 games....then Podkolzin will be fine.

 

[wetcoast]

I agree with your first paragraph.

Green didn't fail Juolevi. Juolevi failed Juolevi.

Green has given young players who succeed a tonne of rope. Hughes, in his 2nd year, was atrocious defensively yet he was a high minute man. He was also on the PP after only a few games. Pettersson pretty much was gifted the 1C role when it wasn't clear at first that he could do it. Hoglander and Boeser were given a top 6 roles as raw rookies.

I think it's fair to say that all players don't get the same treatment as Hughes, Pettersson and Boeser. I just don't agree with you that "Green's approach is atrocious". And, given your first paragraph and the examples I cited, I'm not sure you do either.

Boeser succeeded in spite of how Green treated him out of preseason in his rookie year by not playing him until the 3rd game for no particularly good reason.

As for Podkolzin 8:08 of ice time isn't development, hopefully they send him down after Boeser comes back to re can actually play and develop.

 

[sting101]

3 games?

Pod has looked a little lost at times. He needs to be in sync with the system his linemates and with puck management then he will get a much longer rope to play and flourish. This freakin out about ruining Podkolzin is absolutely ridiculous. Podkolzin if he helps tilt the ice will play as much as he can handle

 

[Hanji]

Cool little Podkolzin interview in Russian after his 3rd game. You can get the gist of it with google translate. The kid has a good attitude. Seems like the coaching staff could communicate with him a little more though. I dunno.

«Я абсолютно счастливый, что вообще в НХЛ. После гола уснул в полчетвертого». Интервью Подколзина о дебюте за «Ванкувер»

 

[iceburg]

Boeser succeeded in spite of how Green treated him out of preseason in his rookie year by not playing him until the 3rd game for no particularly good reason.

As for Podkolzin 8:08 of ice time isn't development, hopefully they send him down after Boeser comes back to re can actually play and develop.

In no way can I be convinced that Boeser sitting out a few games hurt his development. I could just as easily say it made him more hungry. But I also don't have a way to measure this. Today Boeser is a much better two way player than he was when he came into the league.

And Podkolzin was up to almost 10min on Saturday. I suspect that's where they will keep him for now. By the quarter mark he'll probably be at 12 min.