Post-Game Talk: Plus-Minus Thread | Opener edition | Penguins 3, Devils 0

[JTG]

This is where I'm at. I wanted FF but if they had gone BDA and taken Truba I'd be pretty happy right now. DP was neither BPA nor BDA.

I honestly think that Shero got attached to him playing w/ Morrow and put him on a pedestal. When Shero falls for a player he doesn't always make the best decisions (Adams, Eaton, Dupuis, ect).



Why not?

Truba and FF (and about 5 other guys picked after DP) are playing in the NHL this year, that's a huge plus in their favor. Both players would have helped the Pens this year, especially with the low cap.

Because you have no idea how the guys will turn out when they are developed. I don't care about them playing in the NHL this year...we don't need Pouliot this year, or in the immediate future. I care about about how good he can be. If Pouliot is better in every facet of the game v. Trouba...that's a win for us, irregardless of how long we have to wait for him.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Because you have no idea how the guys will turn out when they are developed. I don't care about them playing in the NHL this year...we don't need Pouliot this year, or in the immediate future. I care about about how good he can be. If Pouliot is better in every facet of the game v. Trouba...that's a win for us, irregardless of how long we have to wait for him.

We don't need DP because he's not ready. We could use Truba or FF because they are, that's the point.

It's true that DP could be "better in every facet of the game" than Truba. It's also true could be worse in every facet of the game than Truba. DP could also be the next MA Bergeron. My point is that until DP actually plays in the NHL he's all potential and predictions, where guys who are already playing in the NHL aren't.

I don't think you'll find anyone not named Shero who thinks DP will be a better player than Truba, let alone will be "better in every facet of the game."

 

[Ogrezilla]

Would trouba be a regular with the team if he was here? I doubt it.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The weirdest part about Sutter is he's so ... un-Sutter-like. The one thing all the Sutter brothers had in common was their snarl/intensity. Some were more talented than others, but all had that chippy streak to them. Brandon shows very little intensity out there.

Also, watching Trouba play, that Pouliot pick is going to really bother me for a long time. Because that's the weird part. I wanted a forward, but even if the Pens stuck with their BDA (best defenseman available) strategy, how they went with Pouliot over Trouba is a mystery to me.

Me too.

I do not really follow the Pirates much, but similarly I am really pissed that the Pirates picked Cole over Trevor Bauer. Wasn't that Bauer kid already in the majors last year when Cole could not even make the Pirates crappy pitching staff?

 

[Ugene Magic]

The weirdest part about Sutter is he's so ... un-Sutter-like. The one thing all the Sutter brothers had in common was their snarl/intensity. Some were more talented than others, but all had that chippy streak to them. Brandon shows very little intensity out there.

Also, watching Trouba play, that Pouliot pick is going to really bother me for a long time. Because that's the weird part. I wanted a forward, but even if the Pens stuck with their BDA (best defenseman available) strategy, how they went with Pouliot over Trouba is a mystery to me.

Two words. Joe Morrow, the guy that they picked before him and gushed watching him and Pouloit, the guy they traded for a UFA soon to be washed up vet for a playoff run.

There's no mystery here, it's called tunnel vision. They were too busy watching those two and didn't pay enough mind elsewhere.

The Pens have been doing pretty well drafting, but they hardly have been picking/sticking to BPA. There's bound to be picks that will look foolish even if they still picked well.

 

[Jacob]

I'm not sure I agree that they didn't know about Trouba or didn't scout him enough and that's why they didn't pick him. The Penguins obviously scout all corners of NA extensively, and Trouba had national exposure in the WJCs. Hell, even *I* saw him play about a dozen times. Perhaps they saw more of Pouliot than most other prospects because he was Morrow's teammate, but that could work both ways. The more you watch a prospect, the more flaws you'll see. It's not like they're going to draft based on how often they've seen someone play.

I liked Trouba more than Pouliot then and right now. But Pouliot's progression has been pretty significant in the past year and, I think, is at least starting to vindicate their selection a bit.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I think it's more like they saw him with Morrow so much, and that they played well together, that they had it in their heads that it was a surefire top NHL pairing. They fell in love with the prospect of seeing those guys do the same thing in the NHL that they were doing in JRs.

They got it in their head that DP was gonna be amazing, much like fans do with their prospects, and focused on his positives and overlooked his negatives. I don't think Shero cared who was on the board with the 8th pick, as long as his boy was there. I'd love to see his list because I think DP would be higher than a number of guys picked before him as well.

 

[KIRK]

I'm not sure I agree that they didn't know about Trouba or didn't scout him enough and that's why they didn't pick him. The Penguins obviously scout all corners of NA extensively, and Trouba had national exposure in the WJCs. Hell, even *I* saw him play about a dozen times. Perhaps they saw more of Pouliot than most other prospects because he was Morrow's teammate, but that could work both ways. The more you watch a prospect, the more flaws you'll see. It's not like they're going to draft based on how often they've seen someone play.

I liked Trouba more than Pouliot then and right now. But Pouliot's progression has been pretty significant in the past year and, I think, is at least starting to vindicate their selection a bit.

Several years ago, when Ray Shero was an assistant GM in Nashville, it came time for the Preds first pick at #7 and the three best defensemen were available. They were Ryan Suter, Braydon Coburn, and Dion Phaneuf. If memory serves, the Preds were torn between Suter and Phaneuf. Shero was among those who pushed Suter. It took 5 years before Suter validated that selection. I'm not saying that it will work the same way with Pouliot, but this is how Shero operates: All things being equal, he wants the better PMD.

 

[JTG]

We don't need DP because he's not ready. We could use Truba or FF because they are, that's the point.

It's true that DP could be "better in every facet of the game" than Truba. It's also true could be worse in every facet of the game than Truba. DP could also be the next MA Bergeron. My point is that until DP actually plays in the NHL he's all potential and predictions, where guys who are already playing in the NHL aren't.

I don't think you'll find anyone not named Shero who thinks DP will be a better player than Truba, let alone will be "better in every facet of the game."

You cannot say who the better pick is until both are fully developed. Trouba wouldn't be helping us right now anyways because he wouldn't even be close to sniffing the roster.

And drop FF because he's a forward. That's ridiculous compare a forward to a defensemen.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I'm not sure I agree that they didn't know about Trouba or didn't scout him enough and that's why they didn't pick him. The Penguins obviously scout all corners of NA extensively, and Trouba had national exposure in the WJCs. Hell, even *I* saw him play about a dozen times. Perhaps they saw more of Pouliot than most other prospects because he was Morrow's teammate, but that could work both ways. The more you watch a prospect, the more flaws you'll see. It's not like they're going to draft based on how often they've seen someone play.

I liked Trouba more than Pouliot then and right now. But Pouliot's progression has been pretty significant in the past year and, I think, is at least starting to vindicate their selection a bit.

They definitely watched more of Pouliot through Morrow, they said as much and gushed about him, and they wanted him. I really think had they had the #1/2 pick they'ed still had picked, Pouliot.

Without getting into the whole battle of who's the better pick, I definitely think they did better at #22 picking, Maatta. With them going off the board a bit, Pouliot is going to have to more than making little strides enforcing that pick. He absolutely has to become the stud O-Dman they hoped he'd become.

I cringe at the thought of this organization breaking players down and building them back up. The last two are no longer with the team.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Several years ago, when Ray Shero was an assistant GM in Nashville, it came time for the Preds first pick at #7 and the three best defensemen were available. They were Ryan Suter, Braydon Coburn, and Dion Phaneuf. If memory serves, the Preds were torn between Suter and Phaneuf. Shero was among those who pushed Suter. It took 5 years before Suter validated that selection. I'm not saying that it will work the same way with Pouliot, but this is how Shero operates: All things being equal, he wants the better PMD.

That's not the same situation because those guys were the BPAs. Picking one guy over another who is ranked about the same is not the same thing as picking one guy over another who was ranked much higher than him.

Off the board picks usually don't work out. Some do, but it's a small percentage.

Looking at some off the board picks:

2001: Fredrik Sjostrom, Phoenix Coyotes, 11th Overall
2002: Erik Nystrom, Calgary Flames, 10th Overall
2003: Brent Burns, Minnesota Wild, 20th Overall
2004: Blake Wheeler, Phoenix Coyotes, 5th Overall
2005: Brian Lee, Ottawa Senators, 9th Overall
2006: Claude Giroux, Philadelphia Flyers, 22nd Overall
2007: Ian Cole, St. Louis Blues, 18th Overall
2008: Joe Colbourne, Boston Bruins, 16th Overall
2009: Nick Leddy, Minnesota Wild, 16th Overall
2010: Jeff Skinner, Carolina Hurricanes, 7th Overall
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/745900-nhl-draft-2011-looking-back-at-off-the-board-picks

Other Off the board picks:
2007: Thomas Hickey, Los Angeles Kings, 4th Overall
2010: Nino Niederreiter, New York Islanders, 5th Overall
2012: Mark Jankowski, Calgary Flames, 21st Overall

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

You cannot say who the better pick is until both are fully developed. Trouba wouldn't be helping us right now anyways because he wouldn't even be close to sniffing the roster.

And drop FF because he's a forward. That's ridiculous compare a forward to a defensemen.

That's a strawman at best and BS at worst. So how many years do we have to wait till One can be considered better than the other?

Truba would be playing instead of Olli right now and the way he's playing in WPG would force Shero and DB to make a very hard choice about keeping him.

Here's THNs "NHL scouts re-rank 2012 NHL draft". Guess who scouts would rank 4th and who they would rank 15th?
http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/50530-NHL-scouts-rerank-2012-NHL-draft.html

And why not talk about FF? He was picked after DP, ranked higher than DP, is playing in the NHL right now, and would help our team this year.

Edit: I'm gonna post this in the DP thread as it's not really about the Devs game

 

[KIRK]

That's not the same situation because those guys were the BPAs. Picking one guy over another who is ranked about the same is not the same thing as picking one guy over another who was ranked much higher than him.

Off the board picks usually don't work out. Some do, but it's a small percentage.

Looking at some off the board picks:

2001: Fredrik Sjostrom, Phoenix Coyotes, 11th Overall
2002: Erik Nystrom, Calgary Flames, 10th Overall
2003: Brent Burns, Minnesota Wild, 20th Overall
2004: Blake Wheeler, Phoenix Coyotes, 5th Overall
2005: Brian Lee, Ottawa Senators, 9th Overall
2006: Claude Giroux, Philadelphia Flyers, 22nd Overall
2007: Ian Cole, St. Louis Blues, 18th Overall
2008: Joe Colbourne, Boston Bruins, 16th Overall
2009: Nick Leddy, Minnesota Wild, 16th Overall
2010: Jeff Skinner, Carolina Hurricanes, 7th Overall
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/745900-nhl-draft-2011-looking-back-at-off-the-board-picks

Other Off the board picks:
2007: Thomas Hickey, Los Angeles Kings, 4th Overall
2010: Nino Niederreiter, New York Islanders, 5th Overall
2012: Mark Jankowski, Calgary Flames, 21st Overall

Fair point, and I don't disagree as to what the odds are. Rather, I was disputing the idea that we can say definitively that it was the wrong pick here and now. You won't know for 4-5 years.

 

[#66]

Nonsense.
But if you expect Malkin to be at his best when we don't want to have the puck, when he has no one to win battles in the corners at all... and when we have very little PP time, then go right ahead.

He was responsible throughout, he set up both Neal and Jokinen for prime chances as well as assisting for Adams. He won more than 50% of his face offs, and initially - when Neal was still there - that was our best line.

OK maybe giving him a neg is a little to harsh but he does have that extra gear that he finds when Crosby is out. Last night he was a little to passive for the teams highest paid player.

More than anything I hate how we haven't seen Sid and Malkin both light the league up at the same time. They should bet who gets to 100 points first like Mario and Jags used to.

 

[KIRK]

OK maybe giving him a neg is a little to harsh but he does have that extra gear that he finds when Crosby is out. Last night he was a little to passive for the teams highest paid player.

More than anything I hate how we haven't seen Sid and Malkin both light the league up at the same time. They should bet who gets to 100 points first like Mario and Jags used to.

If Bennett, JJ, and Neal had finished 1/3 of the prime chances Malkin gave them (2 on 1's, 1 on 0's, clean looks from the slot), then it's a 4 point night for him. Respectfully, TR was right on this one . . . Malkin was doing all of the dirty work for his line, and he didn't have anyone springing him or setting him up.

I do wonder sometimes if this whole 'Malkin doesn't work' sentiment comes from it not 'looking like' he tries. I do remember one time during preseason he and Sid both were coming back to take away a developing 3 on 2. Malkin looked like he was gliding. Sid looked like it was a speed skating competition. And, they got back at the same time.

 

[66-30-33]

Would trouba be a regular with the team if he was here? I doubt it.

Maybe for 9 games, but then Maatta would be back to his team.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Imagine Trouba AND Maatta? Anyway, don't write off DP just yet, for all we know he could be better then Trouba.

I really think the organization was going for the highest offensive upside with that pick. They wanted a future PPQB.

I did like Trouba then, and I still like Trouba now. Can't really pass judgement though until DP gets here.

For the record, I'm not writing him off or suggesting he'll bust. I just think (just my opinion) that even if he reaches his max potential, his type of defenseman will be less valuable than Trouba at his max potential, simply because I think Trouba's always going to be better defensively/more physical, while still having a similar impact offensively (although less a playmaker, more a shooter from the point than DP).

 

[KIRK]

For the record, I'm not writing him off or suggesting he'll bust. I just think (just my opinion) that even if he reaches his max potential, his type of defenseman will be less valuable than Trouba at his max potential, simply because I think Trouba's always going to be better defensively/more physical, while still having a similar impact offensively (although less a playmaker, more a shooter from the point than DP).

I'd have taken Trouba, even if Pouliot's upside was a little greater. Fact is, Sid and Geno are entering their primes. A kid like Trouba would've been an impact defenseman before Geno turned 30 (turns out he's a year ahead of that pace). A kid like Pouliot won't make a comparable impact until Sid's already turned 30.

So, here's my question: When we draft players, to what degree, if any, should we consider how greatly AND for how long of Sid's and Geno's primes a prospective pick can contribute?

 

[#66]

If Bennett, JJ, and Neal had finished 1/3 of the prime chances Malkin gave them (2 on 1's, 1 on 0's, clean looks from the slot), then it's a 4 point night for him. Respectfully, TR was right on this one . . . Malkin was doing all of the dirty work for his line, and he didn't have anyone springing him or setting him up.

I do wonder sometimes if this whole 'Malkin doesn't work' sentiment comes from it not 'looking like' he tries. I do remember one time during preseason he and Sid both were coming back to take away a developing 3 on 2. Malkin looked like he was gliding. Sid looked like it was a speed skating competition. And, they got back at the same time.

Yeah but Malkin can get points in a closet though. He's such a great long passer that he doesn't have to be as active as some players to get points. Getting points and Malkin being at his best are two different things though. When Malkins at his best he gets points, hunts down pucks and drives the net like no one else. Again maybe giving him a neg is to harsh and its one game in OCT but there are times that Malkin seems OK with being #2... and I hate that.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I will say this.

When you go off the board and make a pick that at the time seems to most people to be a reach then you open yourself to criticism if the reach doesn't work out. More so than if you had made the consensus pick.

The pick of DP at the time was criticized and even laughed at. It is early but so far those thst criticized the pick as being early by about half of a round seem to have been correct.

I was at the draft and there was shock at the pick. Admittedly though because it was not one of the touted forwards available. I for one wanted FF and said so at the time.

 

[Jacob]

I was at the draft and there was shock at the pick. Admittedly though because it was not one of the touted forwards available. I for one wanted FF and said so at the time.

The Penguins should just poll their fans on who to pick.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The Penguins should just poll their fans on who to pick.

That was not the point of my post.

It was an anecdotal throw away line.

The point was solely that you open yourself more to criticism if you are perceived to have reached at the time and the pick does seem like a reach later.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

We don't need DP because he's not ready. We could use Truba or FF because they are, that's the point.

Is Filip Forsberg really ready? I figured he was only (supposed to be) playing because Nashville truly desperately needs offense. If Forsberg was a Penguin odds are he'd still be in Sweden.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I will say this.

When you go off the board and make a pick that at the time seems to most people to be a reach then you open yourself to criticism if the reach doesn't work out. More so than if you had made the consensus pick.

The pick of DP at the time was criticized and even laughed at. It is early but so far those thst criticized the pick as being early by about half of a round seem to have been correct.

I was at the draft and there was shock at the pick. Admittedly though because it was not one of the touted forwards available. I for one wanted FF and said so at the time.

Those that criticized the pick as early seem correct? Based on what, exactly?

DP's stock has only risen since the pick and now he has a very good chance to represent his country at the WJCs.

If you want to use Maatta making the team over him as a knock, be careful. Maatta plays in a more pro style system than DP, so it is easier for him to adjust. The Hawks system is like a complete 180.

Maatta may be further along like Trouba, but DP is a more dynamic talent than Maatta IMHO.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Is Filip Forsberg really ready? I figured he was only (supposed to be) playing because Nashville truly desperately needs offense. If Forsberg was a Penguin odds are he'd still be in Sweden.

He was on their first line before he got hurt (he should be back this week). He should prolly play on our 3rd line with Sutter and JJ, but that doesn't mean DB wouldn't send him to the AHL.

Also, having him in our system would greatly subdue the feeling that we need to trade Des for a forward, which IMO would be a mistake.