GWT: PL Matchweek 3

[Chimaera]

I don’t think they have enough talent. Their back line is mediocre (or so mismanaged or in such bad form that they’re a shell of their ability). I hesitate to say that I would clearly take any of their defenders over their counterparts for anyone in the top 6 except for Arsenal. Even that, it’s close for some. Their attacking options are not cohesive or overrated. It’s not an awful team, but for what they spent, they didn’t get great players at all. They spent a truckload or money and got top 3-6. A lot of their players are aging, and some of the youth isn’t looking like they can cut it.

De Gea is world class, though he isn’t in good form right now. Pogba has checked out.

I think Jose’s a joke, but who can they get who would actually win with this roster? No one is catching City, but is this roster good enough to do it next season? Like how much money do they have to sink? If it’s 150-200, aren’t they better jettisoning some of it?

 

[Gecklund]

I still don’t get why they play a defensive system rather than a possession system because it’s obvious that the back line is the weakness

 

[Mr Plow]

I still don’t get why they play a defensive system rather than a possession system because it’s obvious that the back line is the weakness

The backline was the weakness last season too but it produced the best United season since Fergie. Mourinho needs to get over the fact that he didn't get the players he wanted and start rebuilding the confidence of the players he succeeded with the last two years. Unfortunately for United I don't think Mou is interested in managing a club that can't compete at the highest level, which this United squad doesn't seem able to do.

 

[YNWA14]

I still don’t get why they play a defensive system rather than a possession system because it’s obvious that the back line is the weakness

Because if the backline is the weakness the last thing you want to do is expose them. You insulate them. When you try to play an offensive system with a weak backline you get what happened with Liverpool for years.

 

[les Habs]

Can't believe some of what I'm reading in this thread. United's squad is good enough for a top 4 finish. Top 2 finish I don't see as much, but definitely top 3-4. While there are issues and no one person is to blame, Mourinho is far and away the biggest problem. Had Guardiola or say Klopp been United manager at the start of preseason they'd have a better season than they would under Mourinho. Plain as day.

Been saying this about Mourinho for 10 years or so.

Same here.

 

[Evilo]

No doubt. Under Klopp, Poch or Guardiola, we wouldn't talk about United's talent, which is clear for everyone to see.
Mata before Mourinho?
Pogba before Mourinho?
Martial before Mourinho?
Lindelof before Mourinho?
Bailly before Mourinho?
Herrera before Mourinho?
Lukaku before Mourinho?

All were better.

Now, take a look at Liverpool and City's rosters and tell me how those players were performing before being coached by their current coach.
Salah? Mane? Firmino? Lovren? Fernandinho? KDB?
And so on....
That's what a good coach does. He makes players play better. A bad coach makes them play worse than their talents.
I think United should sign Rodgers...

 

[Jussi]

Martial was 3x player of the month by January.

According to whom?

Premier League Awards - Player, Manager & Goal of the Month I don't see his name there.

 

[Live in the Now]

Under Klopp many of those United players would be gone. Very few would be left. Fortunately they were dumb and never hired him. Klopp does make players better but look at what's still there from when he got the job, the team is very different.

Lukaku particularly has zero use for Klopp. Sanchez possibly the same. The difference with some players they have, particularly Lukaku, is that you can see he is worse than other similar CF's. No team has ever won anything with him up front for them, there is a reason for that. The style of play Lukaku plays is a little dated, and he simply is nowhere near as good a finisher as a player like Lewandowski, nowhere near as good a runner as a player like Cavani, nowhere near as smart a runner as Kane, etc.

I thought he was going to be better after leaving Everton but that was clearly wrong, he has gotten the ball more and not finished more.

Obviously Mourinho is United's biggest problem, but he has also made awful buys, just as Moyes and van Gaal did.

 

[Jussi]

No doubt. Under Klopp, Poch or Guardiola, we wouldn't talk about United's talent, which is clear for everyone to see.
Mata before Mourinho?
Pogba before Mourinho?
Martial before Mourinho?
Lindelof before Mourinho?
Bailly before Mourinho?
Herrera before Mourinho?
Lukaku before Mourinho?

All were better.

Now, take a look at Liverpool and City's rosters and tell me how those players were performing before being coached by their current coach.
Salah? Mane? Firmino? Lovren? Fernandinho? KDB?
And so on....
That's what a good coach does. He makes players play better. A bad coach makes them play worse than their talents.
I think United should sign Rodgers...

2018/2019	Manchester Un..	EPL	1	60	-	-	1	-	1	90	-	-	5.80
2017/2018	Manchester Un..	UCL	4(4)	343	1	2	-	-	1.4	79.3	0.5	1	6.91
2017/2018	Manchester Un..	EPL	18(12)	1584	9	5	1	-	1.6	81.9	0.5	-	6.87
2016/2017	Manchester Un..	EPL	18(7)	1558	4	6	2	-	1.7	81.3	0.8	3	6.94
2016/2017	Manchester Un..	UEL	4(6)	440	1	-	1	-	1	81.4	0.5	-	6.58
2015/2016	Manchester Un..	UEL	3	270	1	-	-	-	1.3	75.6	0.7	-	6.58
2015/2016	Manchester Un..	UCL	6	516	2	-	1	-	1.8	74.7	1.2	-	6.61
2015/2016	Manchester Un..	EPL	29(2)	2632	11	4	2	-	1.8	76.7	1.8	3	7.23

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

He was injured a lot in Mourinho's first season, only 25 appearances in the league. His best season so far has been his first but he also missed less games due to injury then. Herrera's best season also happened in Mourinho's first season (perhaps close tie with his first): Ander Herrera - History Like Martial, he's had his bouts with injury after that season. Bailly also began his career last season very well but after his injury, he wasn't as good. Inconsistent and prone to make mistakes on marking etc. If players can't regain form after injuries, I'm not sure how one can put that on the manager especially when their position in the team doesn't change.

 

[Evilo]

I already told you Martial had his best seasons away from Mourinho. 2015/16 and before with Monaco. That's not a surprise.

 

[YNWA14]

Firmino and KdB are weird examples given they were two of the very best players from the BuLi.

 

[Evilo]

And Firmino was hardly the player he was during his pre-Klopp days.
KdB as well before Guardiola.

Both are currently not as good with their respective NT as well in fact.

 

[Jussi]

I already told you Martial had his best seasons away from Mourinho. 2015/16 and before with Monaco. That's not a surprise.

Except he was having his best season AT UNITED last season, which really matters in this thread, until he became hugely inconsistent in December. Not to mention we don't know what type of stats he would have had in Mourinho's first season if not for the injury woes.

 

[Blender]

And Firmino was hardly the player he was during his pre-Klopp days.
KdB as well before Guardiola.

Both are currently not as good with their respective NT as well in fact.

What? KdB was on the short list for the Ballon d'Or for 2015 when Manchester City bought him. In 15-16 and 16-17 he was one of the best players in the EPL already. Yes he's gotten even better, but I can't credit Pep with that as he was trending this way already and some age and experience have done him wonders.

 

[Il Mediano]

Fortunately they were dumb and never hired him

Didn't they try? I'm pretty sure Klopp rejected them , it wasn't a case of them being "dumb".

No team has ever won anything with him up front for them, there is a reason for that.

Lukaku played for West Brom/Everton , and moved to United just as City began their dominance. You sure this is a fair analysis?

Obviously Mourinho is United's biggest problem, but he has also made awful buys, just as Moyes and van Gaal did.

I agree Mourinho needs to go , but the one constant in the "awful buys" between the 3 managers is Woodward. I think that obviously means something.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I agree Mourinho needs to go , but the one constant in the "awful buys" between the 3 managers is Woodward. I think that obviously means something.

Yup 100%. We’re talking about the guy that waited until the last day of the transfer window to buy Felli and ended up paying more than his release clause would’ve been a week prior. That’s all that needs to be said about Woodward.

 

[Evilo]

What? KdB was on the short list for the Ballon d'Or for 2015 when Manchester City bought him. In 15-16 and 16-17 he was one of the best players in the EPL already. Yes he's gotten even better, but I can't credit Pep with that as he was trending this way already and some age and experience have done him wonders.

There's a big difference between having a great season in the Bundesliga and being considered among the best in the world.
That step was taken under Guardiola.
And as I said, he's not close to his City level when on the NT.

 

[Blender]

There's a big difference between having a great season in the Bundesliga and being considered among the best in the world.
That step was taken under Guardiola.
And as I said, he's not close to his City level when on the NT.

Ballon d'Or is a world award, and in 2015 he split time between Wolfsburg and City.

He was played out of position with Belgium.

He was fantastic with City before Pep, and yes he is better now, but I don't see how you can give Pep all the credit for that when he's taken the jump almost everyone expected of him anyways.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Yeah, KdB is a weird call, he was already fantastic.
Firmino was very hyped also by the people over here when playing on Hoffenheim, but didn't see so will not comment.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Yeah, KdB is a weird call, he was already fantastic.
Firmino was very hyped also by the people over here when playing on Hoffenheim, but didn't see so will not comment.

Yeah KDB was always such an obvious talent. Everywhere he played he always looked like he was going to be an elite attacking midfielder. Shockingly Mou let him go.

 

[Blender]

Yeah KDB was always such an obvious talent. Everywhere he played he always looked like he was going to be an elite attacking midfielder. Shockingly Mou let him go.

I despise that move, as it's probably been Chelsea's biggest hole the last few years.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I despise that move, as it's probably been Chelsea's biggest hole the last few years.

Like I get some young players need to be moved for certain reasons. But KDB was in that camp at all, just such an obvious elite prospect.

 

[KJS14]

Lukaku particularly has zero use for Klopp. Sanchez possibly the same. The difference with some players they have, particularly Lukaku, is that you can see he is worse than other similar CF's. No team has ever won anything with him up front for them, there is a reason for that. The style of play Lukaku plays is a little dated, and he simply is nowhere near as good a finisher as a player like Lewandowski, nowhere near as good a runner as a player like Cavani, nowhere near as smart a runner as Kane, etc.

I thought he was going to be better after leaving Everton but that was clearly wrong, he has gotten the ball more and not finished more.

Lukaku has been on a team that has serious potential to win trophies for only a year. By that logic, Firmino's teams haven't won anything with him playing up front, and Harry Kane neither. I agree that he's not in the top class of strikers in the world right now, but that's a silly way to reason it.

Lukaku played for West Brom/Everton , and moved to United just as City began their dominance. You sure this is a fair analysis?

This.

 

[les Habs]

I think KdB is a fair call for Guardiola because he has raised his game under him. It's more subtle than in other cases, but KdB would probably tell you that himself. And it's valid either way because he was sold when Mourinho was at the helm of Chelsea.

 

[Evilo]

Ballon d'Or is a world award, and in 2015 he split time between Wolfsburg and City.

He was played out of position with Belgium.

He was fantastic with City before Pep, and yes he is better now, but I don't see how you can give Pep all the credit for that when he's taken the jump almost everyone expected of him anyways.

Nobody "expects" a player to take that jump. Or he has unreasonnable expectations.
I don't give Pep "all the credit", that's weird. I merely said a good coach made the player reach new heights, which is weird to contradict since it's beyond obvious. As can be shown by his wildly inconsistant NT play.