Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - The disco ball's spinnin'

[Andy99]

Here’s a proposal from another poster elsewhere...thoughts?

“Here's my latest trade idea:

TO PIT: Zucker and Dubnyk (with 50% retained), plus 2020 2nd rounder
TO MIN: Murray and Bjugstad, plus 2020 3rd rounder

Minnesota upgrades their goalie position long-term, as Dubnyk is 33. They also upgrade their 3rd line center position.
Pittsburgh gets the winger they wanted this summer, and gets a veteran backup for Jarry, in case he cools off.

Pittsburgh keeps its 1st and top prospects, and gains a 2nd at the cost of a 3rd.”

 

[ChaosAgent]

I think some people are way overstating the importance of "chemistry". If the team chemistry is so fragile that adding 1 non-perfect fit causes thing to go to ****, team chemistry was never good in the first place. If you want me to be more on the nose, I some people see the improvement the team had after trading Kessel and are putting way too heavy of an emphasis on Kessel leaving as why the Penguins are better now. It is a factor, but to say that they need to be wary of adding players like Kessel (because that's how I'm interpreting these posts) is putting way too big of an emphasis on it.

A good player is a good player. I care about how a player would perform here, which is more than "how do they fit the system" or "how do they fit here". I'm not going to take a lesser player who fits the team better over a better player if that lesser player is going to yield worse results.

Ilya Kovalchuk is not a good player anymore. That's why we shouldn't want him.

The other lesson of Phil is that Sid & Geno would be happy with Snipers as wingers but those players have to first and foremost forecheck, backcheck, and support the play in all zones. I think Geno, for instance, realizes that he can't carry around a James Neal or Sykora anymore. It's mostly because the speed of the game is higher now than even 7-10 years ago and it's difficult to deal with ANY non-two way players. Sid realized this when he refused to play with Phil - no I wasn't there and have no insider knowledge of this but it's the only reasonable explanation why Sid & Phil virtually never played together.

If and when we go hunting for our winger prom-date-to-the-playoffs, Kreider/Saad and I guess Zucker go to the top of the list. Palmeiri too. And of course, if we're willing to deal with the sideways stares of bringing our Dad to prom (okay, Uncle, sorry Cullen...) Williams jumps to the top as well since he just costs money and not other assets.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Here’s a proposal from another poster elsewhere...thoughts?

“Here's my latest trade idea:

TO PIT: Zucker and Dubnyk (with 50% retained), plus 2020 2nd rounder
TO MIN: Murray and Bjugstad, plus 2020 3rd rounder

Minnesota upgrades their goalie position long-term, as Dubnyk is 33. They also upgrade their 3rd line center position.
Pittsburgh gets the winger they wanted this summer, and gets a veteran backup for Jarry, in case he cools off.

Pittsburgh keeps its 1st and top prospects, and gains a 2nd at the cost of a 3rd.”

There is about a 0% chance that Minnesota would say yes to that deal.

Ilya Kovalchuk is not a good player anymore. That's why we shouldn't want him.

The other lesson of Phil is that Sid & Geno would be happy with Snipers as wingers but those players have to first and foremost forecheck, backcheck, and support the play in all zones. I think Geno, for instance, realizes that he can't carry around a James Neal or Sykora anymore. It's mostly because the speed of the game is higher now than even 7-10 years ago and it's difficult to deal with ANY non-two way players. Sid realized this when he refused to play with Phil - no I wasn't there and have no insider knowledge of this but it's the only reasonable explanation why Sid & Phil virtually never played together.

If and when we go hunting for our winger prom-date-to-the-playoffs, Kreider/Saad and I guess Zucker go to the top of the list. Palmeiri too. And of course, if we're willing to deal with the sideways stares of bringing our Dad to prom (okay, Uncle, sorry Cullen...) Williams jumps to the top as well since he just costs money and not other assets.

You basically just proved my point. You're arbitrarily saying that the Penguins shouldn't acquire 1-dimensional players, which is putting a much higher emphasis on "team fit" than how good a player actually is. Again, it's just people putting way too much of a connection between Kessel leaving and the Penguins play this year. I'm one of the most outspoken Kessel critics on here, but people are making some massive leaps in logic because of it.

If a player is good, then they're good. I'm not going to say no to acquiring Taylor Hall because he "doesn't fit the system" or "he's 1-dimensional". That's not referring to Kovalchuk, that's referring to the insistence that a winger they acquire has to be playing a certain way or they shouldn't be acquired. This board tends to get very close minded with what it thinks the team needs, and it won't budge outside of what the current flavor of the month is.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I like McCann and Kahun together.

Put Sid in the middle of em.

 

[Andy99]

I would try

Tanev Sid Bjugstad
Galchenyuk Malkin Rust
Kahun McCann Hornqvist
Simon Blueger Lafferty/ZAR

Tanev won’t be playing LW...you’re not the first to suggest him there but teams feel he’s more effective at RW...btw so far it’s looking like Gally might be more effective at RW too..that’s why I think McCann will definitely be returned to LW when Bjug returns...we have enough quality RW...it’s LW that will be more of an issue with Jake sidelined (weeping again)...

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Or is it AG and McCann? All 3 have been good on that line. If McCann/AG stay on 3rd line I guess it depends on the 3rd wheel.

Can see Kahun fitting better with Sid than AG. AG better with Malkin/Rust.

 

[Louis Hensler]

Here’s a proposal from another poster elsewhere...thoughts?

“Here's my latest trade idea:

TO PIT: Zucker and Dubnyk (with 50% retained), plus 2020 2nd rounder
TO MIN: Murray and Bjugstad, plus 2020 3rd rounder

Minnesota upgrades their goalie position long-term, as Dubnyk is 33. They also upgrade their 3rd line center position.
Pittsburgh gets the winger they wanted this summer, and gets a veteran backup for Jarry, in case he cools off.

Pittsburgh keeps its 1st and top prospects, and gains a 2nd at the cost of a 3rd.”

We're loaded with left shot forwards and short on right shot forwards, so I wouldn't trade a right shot for a left shot, especially when the left shot just had surgery and is out until February, and the right shot is about to come back.

 

[ChaosAgent]

You basically just proved my point. You're arbitrarily saying that the Penguins shouldn't acquire 1-dimensional players, which is putting a much higher emphasis on "team fit" than how good a player actually is. Again, it's just people putting way too much of a connection between Kessel leaving and the Penguins play this year. I'm one of the most outspoken Kessel critics on here, but people are making some massive leaps in logic because of it.

If a player is good, then they're good. I'm not going to say no to acquiring Taylor Hall because he "doesn't fit the system" or "he's 1-dimensional". That's not referring to Kovalchuk, that's referring to the insistence that a winger they acquire has to be playing a certain way or they shouldn't be acquired. This board tends to get very close minded with what it thinks the team needs, and it won't budge outside of what the current flavor of the month is.

I'm okay with an offense-first winger. I'm not okay with an offense-only winger. I think the offense-only forward player-type is a dying breed in today's NHL and only the very most talented/productive (Ovechkin, Laine, Kane) can still be assets. Either that or they need to play with 2 elite 2-way talents like Pastnak with Marchand and Bergeron. I've liked Sid & Geno defensively - Geno has been awesome this year - but I just don't think either of them is on Bergeron's level at that end of the rink. That was a big part of the reason I wanted Phil gone and Sprong gone once I watched him play more. It's also why Kovalchuk is currently unemployed.

I would have been fine acquiring Hall if we could get him extended and not given up a ton in the trade. Hall himself may even be still out there if/when Arizona sinks which looks to be happening...that would also suppress his negotiating power in FA.

 

[Empoleon8771]

To expand on the point I was making above, how would people here feel about acquiring Athanasiou? I think AA would be an incredibly safe bet to hit 30 goals while playing with Crosby, because he's a terrific ES goal scorer that already hit 30 goals last year with the Wings. The issue is that he's bad defensively (although his defensive analytics are much less bad than I was expecting), is crazy soft and is crazy small. I'm expecting most people to say they wouldn't be interested in AA, even with the cost of acquiring him likely being low.

To me, Athanasiou would be one of the best players the Penguins could possibly acquire. I don't see many other players having the upside he'd have alongside Crosby. I think he'd be far down the list for a lot of people here despite that upside, and I think that's because of people drawing too heavy of conclusions from trading Kessel.

I'm okay with an offense-first winger. I'm not okay with an offense-only winger. I think the offense-only forward player-type is a dying breed in today's NHL and only the very most talented/productive (Ovechkin, Laine, Kane) can still be assets. Either that or they need to play with 2 elite 2-way talents like Pastnak with Marchand and Bergeron. I've liked Sid & Geno defensively - Geno has been awesome this year - but I just don't think either of them is on Bergeron's level at that end of the rink. That was a big part of the reason I wanted Phil gone and Sprong gone once I watched him play more. It's also why Kovalchuk is currently unemployed.

I would have been fine acquiring Hall if we could get him extended and not given up a ton in the trade. Hall himself may even be still out there if/when Arizona sinks which looks to be happening...that would also suppress his negotiating power in FA.

So you'd say no to Athanasiou then?

 

[Shady Machine]

I don't know who I want them to acquire, but I think this is the year to go after it. The team is playing great, despite significant injuries, and has ample depth down the line up but need more higher end quality. Everyone looks bought in and they have 3 NHL goaltenders, with 2 that can win you big games. You have plenty of LTIR space with Jake out and you NEED to replace at least some of his scoring to make a serious run.

I'm not saying make a stupid trade, but I really feel good about this team if they can go swing for the fences on a legit top 6 winger.

 

[The Old Master]

So you'd say no to Athanasiou then?

not sure what sid would think of aa...... you know how he wants perfect players on his wing.

 

[Flying Dego]

To expand on the point I was making above, how would people here feel about acquiring Athanasiou? I think AA would be an incredibly safe bet to hit 30 goals while playing with Crosby, because he's a terrific ES goal scorer that already hit 30 goals last year with the Wings. The issue is that he's bad defensively (although his defensive analytics are much less bad than I was expecting), is crazy soft and is crazy small. I'm expecting most people to say they wouldn't be interested in AA, even with the cost of acquiring him likely being low.

To me, Athanasiou would be one of the best players the Penguins could possibly acquire. I don't see many other players having the upside he'd have alongside Crosby. I think he'd be far down the list for a lot of people here despite that upside, and I think that's because of people drawing too heavy of conclusions from trading Kessel.

What is the ask for AA? Btw you said he's crazy small but I think he's bigger than half our wings lol...he certainly may be soft.

If he's reasonable than sure we need speed and scoring.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

There is about a 0% chance that Minnesota would say yes to that deal.



You basically just proved my point. You're arbitrarily saying that the Penguins shouldn't acquire 1-dimensional players, which is putting a much higher emphasis on "team fit" than how good a player actually is. Again, it's just people putting way too much of a connection between Kessel leaving and the Penguins play this year. I'm one of the most outspoken Kessel critics on here, but people are making some massive leaps in logic because of it.

Didn’t we just go through two years of this team acquiring players who don’t fit the Sullivan mold? And last year especially, we had a team that just wanted to do their own thing. We saw how damaging one-dimensional guys are, not just to the team concept but in how much harder everyone else has to work to pick up the slack. There isn’t anybody out there right now who is good enough offensively to offset being one-dimensional. Kessel was until 2017-18, then increasingly actively hurt the team until the trade. We aren’t playing better just because he left, we’re playing better because the players are being responsible and playing a complete game, something Kessel lost interest in rapidly after 2017...

 

[Peat]

To expand on the point I was making above, how would people here feel about acquiring Athanasiou? I think AA would be an incredibly safe bet to hit 30 goals while playing with Crosby, because he's a terrific ES goal scorer that already hit 30 goals last year with the Wings. The issue is that he's bad defensively (although his defensive analytics are much less bad than I was expecting), is crazy soft and is crazy small. I'm expecting most people to say they wouldn't be interested in AA, even with the cost of acquiring him likely being low.

To me, Athanasiou would be one of the best players the Penguins could possibly acquire. I don't see many other players having the upside he'd have alongside Crosby. I think he'd be far down the list for a lot of people here despite that upside, and I think that's because of people drawing too heavy of conclusions from trading Kessel.



So you'd say no to Athanasiou then?

I'm low on AA, yeah. And it's not because of trading Kessel - it's about trading him, getting Tanev, giving big minutes to defensively responsible guys like Blueger, and total buy in to Sully's demands. The emphasis on team defence and creating defensive system breakdowns through puck pressure is at the heart of everything good about this team - that and defensive puck movement. I don't want to sacrifice that one iota.

And I suspect most of the team doesn't either. Sids lack of playing time with Kessel suggests he wouldn't want AA. Geno wouldn't complain but watching how he focuses with guys with grinding mentalities is beautiful. And Sully clearly has little interest in such players, and imo the moral of this season is give Sully what he wants.

Everything says to me Sully style hockey players only. Not just Kessel. AA doesn't look like that.

 

[ChaosAgent]

So you'd say no to Athanasiou then?

You said yourself that his defensive metrics weren't that horrible. He is in a terribad situation in Detroit and I can't 100% judge him with that. He may be in the offense-first group and not the offense-only group. I haven't seen enough of him to make any sort of informed judgment on the guy as a player and not going to pretend otherwise.

So...if he comes cheap, sure.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Didn’t we just go through two years of this team acquiring players who don’t fit the Sullivan mold? And last year especially, we had a team that just wanted to do their own thing. We saw how damaging one-dimensional guys are, not just to the team concept but in how much harder everyone else has to work to pick up the slack. There isn’t anybody out there right now who is good enough offensively to offset being one-dimensional. Kessel was until 2017-18, then increasingly actively hurt the team until the trade. We aren’t playing better just because he left, we’re playing better because the players are being responsible and playing a complete game, something Kessel lost interest in rapidly after 2017...

Again, you're just proving my point. You think that being a "1-dimensional player" suddenly means that they can't fit within Sullivan's system or they "want to do their own thing". You are doing exactly what I said, you're making stuff up because of the improvement the team saw after trading Kessel and claiming it's because they don't have any players like Kessel.

This website gets so close minded when it gets an idea that it makes discussions really difficult to have. The problems you listed were problems with Kessel, and why it was a good idea to move Kessel. Extrapolating that to any sort of 1-dimensional player is horribly flawed. Just as an example, I'm positive Sheary would fit this team extremely well because he's a high effort and fast player. He's still soft and bad defensively, but he'd still fit the system despite those flaws.

I'm low on AA, yeah. And it's not because of trading Kessel - it's about trading him, getting Tanev, giving big minutes to defensively responsible guys like Blueger, and total buy in to Sully's demands. The emphasis on team defence and creating defensive system breakdowns through puck pressure is at the heart of everything good about this team - that and defensive puck movement. I don't want to sacrifice that one iota.

And I suspect most of the team doesn't either. Sids lack of playing time with Kessel suggests he wouldn't want AA. Geno wouldn't complain but watching how he focuses with guys with grinding mentalities is beautiful. And Sully clearly has little interest in such players, and imo the moral of this season is give Sully what he wants.

Everything says to me Sully style hockey players only. Not just Kessel. AA doesn't look like that.

AA and Kessel aren't comparable players. Athanasiou is closer to Sheary, who Crosby loved playing with, thank Kessel.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Again, you're just proving my point. You think that being a "1-dimensional player" suddenly means that they can't fit within Sullivan's system or they "want to do their own thing". You are doing exactly what I said, you're making stuff up because of the improvement the team saw after trading Kessel and claiming it's because they don't have any players like Kessel.

No, it doesn’t mean that. It means that if they are one-dimensional, they better be damn good at that dimension. Enough to offset an incomplete game. And Kessel was until he stopped providing offense. Why is that difficult to understand? And how the hell are you missing that the top two things keeping this team above water and often dominating are players that fit Sullivan’s system and their willingness to play 200 feet?

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

And yeah, not having Kessel’s attitude and total lack of commitment defensively and physically on the puck is a big improvement and helps everyone on the team stay committed to what the coaches are teaching. It’s hard to play right when top guys are doing their own thing. That’s been true since the beginning of this game. Like others, I love the way the team is playing and don’t want to sacrifice that for anything. Get a guy who can play Sullivan’s system and chip in goals and we’ll be fine.

 

[Peat]

Again, you're just proving my point. You think that being a "1-dimensional player" suddenly means that they can't fit within Sullivan's system or they "want to do their own thing". You are doing exactly what I said, you're making stuff up because of the improvement the team saw after trading Kessel and claiming it's because they don't have any players like Kessel.

This website gets so close minded when it gets an idea that it makes discussions really difficult to have. The problems you listed were problems with Kessel, and why it was a good idea to move Kessel. Extrapolating that to any sort of 1-dimensional player is horribly flawed. Just as an example, I'm positive Sheary would fit this team extremely well because he's a high effort and fast player. He's still soft and bad defensively, but he'd still fit the system despite those flaws.



AA and Kessel aren't comparable players. Athanasiou is closer to Sheary, who Crosby loved playing with, thank Kessel.

If AA is genuinely high effort, goes to the dirty areas, forechecks like mad, then my interest level just increased.

But you're about the first person to tell me that. Sheary was a midget but he had a grinding mentality. He'd work and work and try and try. Does AA?

Also, tbf, Sheary did get moved off this team in no small part due to those flaws.

 

[Empoleon8771]

No, it doesn’t mean that. It means that if they are one-dimensional, they better be damn good at that dimension. Enough to offset an incomplete game.

You're super overrating defensive ability then. Unless a guy is heinously bad defensively, an offense only player who gives you like 40-50 points is outweighing their bad defensive game.

And Kessel was until he stopped providing offense. Why is that difficult to understand?

Because you're pretending the issues that caused Kessel to struggle align with all players, which is just wrong. Kessel is such a bad fit in this system because he actively avoids contact, he's lazy and he's bad defensively. If you made him only bad defensively, he still wouldn't be a great fit, but you'd be able to tolerate him. Sheary is an example of a super 1-dimensional player that would fit this system really well.

And how the hell are you missing that the top two things keeping this team above water and often dominating are players that fit Sullivan’s system and their willingness to play 200 feet?

And do you seriously think the team would fall apart if they acquired 1 guy who didn't fit that mold, but one that filled an absolutely massive need in another way (like replacing Guentzel's production or replacing Kessel on the powerplay)?

 

[Empoleon8771]

If AA is genuinely high effort, goes to the dirty areas, forechecks like mad, then my interest level just increased.

But you're about the first person to tell me that. Sheary was a midget but he had a grinding mentality. He'd work and work and try and try. Does AA?

Also, tbf, Sheary did get moved off this team in no small part due to those flaws.

You don't need to be Sheary to not be Kessel, though. Kessel's so bad with his effort level and grinding game that a lot of players are closer to Sheary than Kessel. I imagine that AA has similar physicality/effort levels to what Galchenyuk has.

I think the issue here is that some people think anyone the Penguins acquire has to fit their system 100%, where they need to be fast, strong defensively, physical, gritty and whatever else you think they need. I don't think you need to have a roster filled with 12 guys who fit exactly what you want. If you could acquire 2016-2017 Sheary, that would still be a good acquisition despite him being bad defensively. The reason Kessel didn't work anymore is that he was the antithesis of EVERYTHING Sullivan wanted, not that he wasn't perfect here.

The issue I see here is that people are getting too close minded with what kind of player the Penguins should be targeting, which results in super limited options that don't really address the flaws the roster has. You don't need to get someone who fits the system 100%, you can get a really good player that has 50% or 75% of what you want (in terms of qualities you want for team fit, so things like defense, speed, grit and whatnot) and still be happy with that. The problem with Kessel is that he was at 0% of what you want.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It’s funny when we talk about trades and chemistry, nobody talks about the responsibility of coaches in this equation.

 

[HandshakeLine]

But Chuck Noll was a living god, so what do I know? Pittsburgh loves a man with a whistle and a clipboard.

 

[Flying Dego]

What's the cost for AA? He would be an interesting add if he doesn't cost premium assets.

 

[Hamurai]

How is AA small? He’s listed as 6’2. Also, I can’t seen him coming that cheap. He’s struggling, but is only 25, scored 30 goals last year, and is a RFA after this season.

I would be fine with acquiring him, but I’m assuming it wouldn’t be for awhile. He’s out 2-3 weeks with a LBI... unless that’s how people think we are acquiring him cheap?