Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - Hungry for Change

[Peat]

Oh yeah, it's completely easy to see through JR's comments, I'm just not sure what their actual opinion on JJ is. If the team is still fine with him, but likely Gudbranson more, I think that's different than the team disliking him. At that point, trading Gudbranson and keeping JJ should be viewed as a viable alternative. I'm not crazy about that idea, but with Marino legitimately pressing for a roster spot, something has to give on RD.

It goes back to a question I asked last week, would you rather add dramatically on top of JJ and have Riikola-Gudbranson as your bottom pair or get a return for Gudbranson and have Johnson-Marino as the bottom pair? And by "you", I mean the Penguins management and coaches. Everyone here rightfully hates Johnson and doesn't hate Gudbranson yet, so I understand why the responses were overwhelmingly for Riikola-Gudbranson. However, I think it's a lot more of a debate that other will say it is. If the team is fine with Johnson but just likes Gudbranson more, I think there's a legit debate there.

There's been about 500 rumours about moving JJ and none about moving Gudbranson. Even with Marino's emergence, there seems to be a really obvious answer as to what the org are thinking there.

 

[NMK11]

He has a full NTC. I'm not sure how moveable he is. His NTC changes drastically in July 2021 (full to an 8 team no trade list), but that's a couple summers away. In the meantime we could probably move him (if he's healthy) but we wouldn't get **** for him - especially if he was difficult about his NTC.

Gudbranson hasn't looked like a bottom 6 guy since coming over, but don't let facts get in the way of your narrative.

I always forget about Horny's NTC, gar. I guess it comes down to how hard he wants to play that, but I could see him willing to go to a hungry team if he knew he was going to have an increasingly smaller role here. And I disagree about getting shit for him. We might not get a ton, but I think he'd return something respectable unless he plays total hardball.

And Gudbranson has been a bad defenseman for years. Years. I'm all for giving him a shot because I agree he's looked decent here, but to say it's a "narrative" to call him a bottom pairing guy after 19 games is ridiculous.

 

[Empoleon8771]

There's been about 500 rumours about moving JJ and none about moving Gudbranson. Even with Marino's emergence, there seems to be a really obvious answer as to what the org are thinking there.

That just says they like Gudbranson more than JJ, that doesn't really say how they view JJ. The Penguins trying to trade JJ just shows that they think JJ is expendable with who else they have, not whether they think he's bad/good/fine. I could totally see JR wanting to have his cake and eat it too when it comes to trading JJ.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I always forget about Horny's NTC, gar. I guess it comes down to how hard he wants to play that, but I could see him willing to go to a hungry team if he knew he was going to have an increasingly smaller role here. And I disagree about getting **** for him. We might not get a ton, but I think he'd return something respectable unless he plays total hardball.

And Gudbranson has been a bad defenseman for years. Years. I'm all for giving him a shot because I agree he's looked decent here, but to say it's a "narrative" to call him a bottom pairing guy after 19 games is ridiculous.

I agree that 19 games is an extremely small sample but "decent here" is also a big understatement. He has been excellent is his small sample.

Oleksiak was a bad D man that had a "decent" stretch that reverted back to somewhere in the middle. And that wasnt good enough.

Gudbranson was a bad D man that was excellent for a stretch. Even if he reverts back to somewhere in the middle, he can be a solid 3rd pair guy.

 

[NMK11]

I agree that 19 games is an extremely small sample but "decent here" is also a big understatement. He has been excellent is his small sample.

Oleksiak was a bad D man that had a "decent" stretch that reverted back to somewhere in the middle. And that wasnt good enough.

Gudbranson was a bad D man that was excellent for a stretch. Even if he reverts back to somewhere in the middle, he can be a solid 3rd pair guy.

Agreed all around, and if you read my post before I labelled him a bottom pairing guy. I was questioning why that counts as a "narrative". Guds has looked fine as a bottom pairing player, but it's still a hefty price tag for his role.

 

[Peat]

That just says they like Gudbranson more than JJ, that doesn't really say how they view JJ. The Penguins trying to trade JJ just shows that they think JJ is expendable with who else they have, not whether they think he's bad/good/fine. I could totally see JR wanting to have his cake and eat it too when it comes to trading JJ.

I think it says they like Gudbranson a *lot* more than JJ and have no interest in trading him to keep JJ.

Also Sully's HS'ing of JJ for a not really ready to be back Maatta tells its own tale there. I think you're introducing more uncertainty to this than needs to exist.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think it says they like Gudbranson a *lot* more than JJ and have no interest in trading him to keep JJ.

Also Sully's HS'ing of JJ for a not really ready to be back Maatta tells its own tale there. I think you're introducing more uncertainty to this than needs to exist.

He did that for 1 game though, and then he proceeded to scratch Maatta for the rest of the playoff series. Plus Johnson is back on the 2nd pair right now. I think people are just hoping the team views JJ to be as bad as fans view JJ to be. We don't know how they actually view JJ beyond them wanting to trade him, which can mean anything from "we hate him and he stinks" to "we're fine with him, we just like the alternatives more".

It all depends on what JR wants to accomplish by trading JJ. Does he want to trade JJ because he thinks he stinks, or does he want to trade JJ because he's expendable and making a lot of money? It's entirely possible that they're very high on Gudbranson, but it's also possible that they view the two as not all that far apart and would just rather trade Johnson. That's just something we don't know. We know what they want to do, we just don't know why they want to do it or how they feel about specifics in the situation.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

To put this expectation in context, Kane cleared the 30 goal mark 4 times in 12 seasons (40 once). Toews did it 3 times.

The hope you're putting on Debrincat is that he'll consistently score goals at the clip of a young Crosby, Malkin, McDavid or Ovechkin. I don't think this is at all realistic.

Don't know why you're listing a bunch of 50-goal scorers there.

Dude was a goal-scoring machine in juniors and that's translated in the pros. 28 his rookie year, 41 his sophomore campaign. Yeah, I think he's potting 30+ every year of this deal barring injury. Plus it's a short term. Nothing not to like about that deal. Hawks fans probably wish it were longer.

 

[Peat]

He did that for 1 game though, and then he proceeded to scratch Maatta for the rest of the playoff series. Plus Johnson is back on the 2nd pair right now. I think people are just hoping the team views JJ to be as bad as fans view JJ to be. We don't know how they actually view JJ beyond them wanting to trade him, which can mean anything from "we hate him and he stinks" to "we're fine with him, we just like the alternatives more".

Because Maatta was clearly not fully ready to be back and had a terrible game. Sully then proceeded to use JJ like a bottom pairing dman even when on paper he was in the top 4 - not much of a vote of confidence.

I know the team don't hate him as much as we do. And I know there's probably a range of opinions on him in the org. But Occam's Razor dictates a pretty serious level of unhappiness with him here. And that's without having to believe Mr Jiggyfly (which I do).

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because Maatta was clearly not fully ready to be back and had a terrible game. Sully then proceeded to use JJ like a bottom pairing dman even when on paper he was in the top 4 - not much of a vote of confidence.

I know the team don't hate him as much as we do. And I know there's probably a range of opinions on him in the org. But Occam's Razor dictates a pretty serious level of unhappiness with him here. And that's without having to believe Mr Jiggyfly (which I do).

Or maybe that's just them using him appropriately and realizing he's a bottom pair defenseman (in their eyes)

We know they want to move JJ and the organization may view Riikola to have surpassed JJ on the depth chart, but beyond that, we don't really have any more information. We don't know why they want to move Johnson or how they specifically view Johnson as a player. It's entirely possible that JR's comments of "he's a good bottom pair D with the right partner" are genuine, and they just think that JJ is expendable because of who else they have acquired. It's also possible that they think Johnson sucks.

If I had to guess, they probably view Gudbranson as a bottom pair D (maybe a little better) but a necessary fighter and a good guy for the locker room. If that's right, that's not all that far off from what JR said about JJ in that 93.7 interview, they would just rather trade Johnson and will explore all avenues for that before trying something else. They may much prefer to keep Gudbranson because of his fighting and being a good locker room guy while not thinking they're that different of players.

 

[billybudd]

Don't know why you're listing a bunch of 50-goal scorers there.

Dude was a goal-scoring machine in juniors and that's translated in the pros. 28 his rookie year, 41 his sophomore campaign. Yeah, I think he's potting 30+ every year of this deal barring injury. Plus it's a short term. Nothing not to like about that deal. Hawks fans probably wish it were longer.

I listed "a bunch of 50-goal scorers" because those are the only types of players who have been able to "pot 30+ every year...barring injury" in recent memory. A normal player who is known for scoring goals might get 30+ half the time, and that's if he's lucky.

Your expectation for Debrincat is that he will prove to be more prolific than Tyler Seguin, Jamie Benn, Patrick Kane, Taylor Hall, John Tavares, Logan Couture (etc, etc) at similar ages, and more in line with someone like McDavid or Stamkos. This seems extraordinarily unlikely.

 

[Empoleon8771]

This whole Johnson trade/no trade situation just makes me wish we had some answers from the Penguins on a couple of questions:

- What do the Penguins actually want to get out of trading Johnson? Is it cap space, clearing out some expensive and expendable depth or getting rid of a bad player? Or is it a combination of 2 or all 3 of those? Seeing how they were willing to swap Johnson for Rask in a potential Kessel deal, I'm not sure they're gunning for cap space here.
- Why has Johnson not been traded yet? Is the asking price to take him too high or is JR refusing to add any significant assets or retain salary? Or is JR just targeting a return that isn't feasible for Johnson?
- Is there any situation where the team is ultimately fine with keeping Johnson or happy to keep him? Or is he 100% a dead man walking in their eyes?

This whole situation just seems weird. If they really wanted to just trade Johnson, I think they could do it in an afternoon. If they just want to clear out an expensive defenseman since they're super deep on D, you can probably trade Johnson for a similarly expensive forward. If they want to clear out cap space by moving Johnson, that's going to be painful but also doable. The big question I have is this: if the team wants to trade Johnson as much as it appears to want to, why have they not bitten the bullet on moving him yet?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

The opening night lineup is interesting if one tries to dissect it for clarity. It sure looks to me like Johnson is being showcased, playing next to a better player in Schultz than what was led to believe. Also, he is starting out (at least on paper and in theory) as a top-4 defender.

Also, Hornqvist looks to me like someone who is being showcased as well. Otherwise, he is playing with Crosby literally because it's either that or the fourth line. Our third line needs a playmaker on it if Bjugstad and McCann are going to pair up, so Kahun there makes sense. I also think Tanev is a better fit with Galchenyuk and Malkin because of his defensive prowess vis-a-vis Hornqvist.

Then there is the Marino thing. This one seems strange. They obviously like him enough to keep him around as the NINTH defenseman??? On a team with four right-handed D-men ahead of him and Trotman on IR (plus Riikola, who has always looked fairly comfortable on the right side, as opposed to say Johnson), it sure seems weird that they recalled him at this time. On the surface, his status does not appear to be directly linked to either Johnson or Hornqvist. Marino's immediate NHL future seems tied to Gudbranson's status. Otherwise, why is he here?

Is JR planning something bigger than we expect? Letang? Schultz? Not much makes sense right about now.

I truly believe he had something close to done but then Rust hurt his hand and everything went on hold. So now he is looking at other options. I hope he is looking for a scorer because I think we are a forward short in that department (preferably a right shot who can help replace Kessel on the PP).

 

[pokey10]

This whole Johnson trade/no trade situation just makes me wish we had some answers from the Penguins on a couple of questions:

- What do the Penguins actually want to get out of trading Johnson? Is it cap space, clearing out some expensive and expendable depth or getting rid of a bad player? Or is it a combination of 2 or all 3 of those? Seeing how they were willing to swap Johnson for Rask in a potential Kessel deal, I'm not sure they're gunning for cap space here.
- Why has Johnson not been traded yet? Is the asking price to take him too high or is JR refusing to add any significant assets or retain salary? Or is JR just targeting a return that isn't feasible for Johnson?
- Is there any situation where the team is ultimately fine with keeping Johnson or happy to keep him? Or is he 100% a dead man walking in their eyes?

This whole situation just seems weird. If they really wanted to just trade Johnson, I think they could do it in an afternoon. If they just want to clear out an expensive defenseman since they're super deep on D, you can probably trade Johnson for a similarly expensive forward. If they want to clear out cap space by moving Johnson, that's going to be painful but also doable. The big question I have is this: if the team wants to trade Johnson as much as it appears to want to, why have they not bitten the bullet on moving him yet?

JR will be patient on waiting to pull the trigger until I think he finds value in it. If he wanted a pure dump, JR could have bought him out, waived him, or lastly - asked Sully to HS him. Its coming into focus that JR wants to find something JJ can do well, expand on it, and use it to get rid of him. Sorta like buying a Ford - they can turn on and off and move around, if thats what your looking for in a vehicle; they just arnt the best.

 

[Khelandros]

The opening night lineup is interesting if one tries to dissect it for clarity. It sure looks to me like Johnson is being showcased, playing next to a better player in Schultz than what was led to believe. Also, he is starting out (at least on paper and in theory) as a top-4 defender.

Also, Hornqvist looks to me like someone who is being showcased as well. Otherwise, he is playing with Crosby literally because it's either that or the fourth line. Our third line needs a playmaker on it if Bjugstad and McCann are going to pair up, so Kahun there makes sense. I also think Tanev is a better fit with Galchenyuk and Malkin because of his defensive prowess vis-a-vis Hornqvist.

Then there is the Marino thing. This one seems strange. They obviously like him enough to keep him around as the NINTH defenseman??? On a team with four right-handed D-men ahead of him and Trotman on IR (plus Riikola, who has always looked fairly comfortable on the right side, as opposed to say Johnson), it sure seems weird that they recalled him at this time. On the surface, his status does not appear to be directly linked to either Johnson or Hornqvist. Marino's immediate NHL future seems tied to Gudbranson's status. Otherwise, why is he here?

Is JR planning something bigger than we expect? Letang? Schultz? Not much makes sense right about now.

I truly believe he had something close to done but then Rust hurt his hand and everything went on hold. So now he is looking at other options. I hope he is looking for a scorer because I think we are a forward short in that department (preferably a right shot who can help replace Kessel on the PP).

Or maybe, Hornqvist is playing with Crosby because when they get together magical things happen?

 

[Empoleon8771]

JR will be patient on waiting to pull the trigger until I think he finds value in it. If he wanted a pure dump, JR could have bought him out, waived him, or lastly - asked Sully to HS him. Its coming into focus that JR wants to find something JJ can do well, expand on it, and use it to get rid of him. Sorta like buying a Ford - they can turn on and off and move around, if thats what your looking for in a vehicle; they just arnt the best.

I feel like the rumored deals we have heard sound like JR has wanted a pure dumb of Johnson, one for Victor Rask and the other to probably Colorado.

 

[pokey10]

I feel like the rumored deals we have heard sound like JR has wanted a pure dumb of Johnson, one for Victor Rask and the other to probably Colorado.

I admit i forget what the deal was for that but that was the Kessel non deal right? I think JR was look to kill 2 for 1 in getting rid of Kessel and JJ and bring back Zucker. But that's just my opinion if I have the details right.

 

[pokey10]

Contract Buyout Details - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

actually that would have sucked.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I admit i forget what the deal was for that but that was the Kessel non deal right? I think JR was look to kill 2 for 1 in getting rid of Kessel and JJ and bring back Zucker. But that's just my opinion if I have the details right.

That is right, it was Kessel and JJ for Zucker and Rask. That may have been a part of it, but I think JR specifically requested that also be included in the potential deal. Things are different now of course, but that to me at least suggests that JR is fine with taking salary back for JJ.

Contract Buyout Details - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

actually that would have sucked.

I want JJ bought out next year personally, because his buyout isn't that big of an issue in my eyes.

 

[Peat]

Or maybe that's just them using him appropriately and realizing he's a bottom pair defenseman (in their eyes)

We know they want to move JJ and the organization may view Riikola to have surpassed JJ on the depth chart, but beyond that, we don't really have any more information. We don't know why they want to move Johnson or how they specifically view Johnson as a player. It's entirely possible that JR's comments of "he's a good bottom pair D with the right partner" are genuine, and they just think that JJ is expendable because of who else they have acquired. It's also possible that they think Johnson sucks.

If I had to guess, they probably view Gudbranson as a bottom pair D (maybe a little better) but a necessary fighter and a good guy for the locker room. If that's right, that's not all that far off from what JR said about JJ in that 93.7 interview, they would just rather trade Johnson and will explore all avenues for that before trying something else. They may much prefer to keep Gudbranson because of his fighting and being a good locker room guy while not thinking they're that different of players.

Fighting and being a locker room guy doesn't equal the difference between trying to trade all summer at his lowest value in a market the GM doesn't like Vs barely a whiff of rumour despite him being at a far higher value and having more depth behind him. There's clearly a difference in how they're viewed as fits here at the very least.

 

[KIRK]

It’s JR, who knows what he will do.

I’d think he could move Guds or Bjugstad more easily than JJ if he really needed space.

He’s been trying to move JJ for awhile now though, that’s all I can keep stressing. What the asking price for him to do so, who knows, but if it wasn’t a big ask, JJ would be gone by now I’m 100% sure of that.

Other GMs have him by the nutsack and it’s his own doing, and I don’t think he wants to make the bad trade that makes him look like a dumb **** for the JJ deal.

Pretty sure it's a 1st or equivalent spiff or eating up to half the deal plus smaller pieces.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Pretty sure it's a 1st or equivalent spiff or eating up to half the deal plus smaller pieces.

Personally I'd be fine with retaining up to $1 million and adding Jarry and a 2nd (on top of retention) to get rid of JJ. I don't know why JR would make a big **** out of doing that.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Pretty sure it's a 1st or equivalent spiff or eating up to half the deal plus smaller pieces.

With the cap rising, Id retain 1.5m so we dont have to give up as good an asset.

 

[KIRK]

Personally I'd be fine with retaining up to $1 million and adding Jarry and a 2nd (on top of retention) to get rid of JJ. I don't know why JR would make a big **** out of doing that.

With the cap rising, Id retain 1.5m so we dont have to give up as good an asset.

The cap won't really rise next year (it's the season after, when the new TV deal hits, that the big bump is expected), which is why it's tough to eat money. That said, I'm on the same page as both of you. If you can get rid of him without giving up a 1st or one of your top 5 prospects, then pay the price, even if part of it is eating money.

 

[66-30-33]

I admit i forget what the deal was for that but that was the Kessel non deal right? I think JR was look to kill 2 for 1 in getting rid of Kessel and JJ and bring back Zucker. But that's just my opinion if I have the details right.

What would have been a better deal? Zucker and Rask for Kessel and JJ or Kessel for Chucky and POJ but we keep JJ?