Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - Hungry for Change

[molon labe]

Injury is only one factor with Horny. Slowing down and not fitting into a top line comfortably is the other concern I have.

One more season until his contract becomes league average for a 3rd line player. The new TV deal is going to change everything we are accustomed to with the cap. No doubt he needs to perform a little better - but people go nuts over a guy who provides something noone else does in this lineup. Until Tanev / Guentzel can prove they can combine to provide Horny's net front/grit, there's nothing we can really complain about with having Hornqvist here (even in a limited role). I think everyone agrees with the fact that he needs to be in the top 6 to make sense... but still.

JJ however... we're talking about a guy who genuinely handicaps any player he's on the ice with. Take their average performance - and subtract 5-25% accordingly, then pay for that privilege... for 5 seasons. Absurdity.

 

[Louis Hensler]

I think you are fair to be concerned. I just find your concern a little over the top with Horny. He brings value to the team no matter which line he is on. Is he worth $5.3MM now with Jake taking top PP duties? Probably not, but it's not a crippling contract and I still am confident he makes a big impact on the team when it matters.

I read the OP as suggesting that it might make sense to look at Horny's contract before it becomes crippling. Seems to me that would be wise. A lot will depend on where the Pens stand at the deadline and where Horny stands with the team at that time. But if GMJR is smart, he has his eye on that situation.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Hornqvist will be able to perform his role and play his style indefinitely. Holmstrom did it until he was like 40. I worry about Hornqvist's ability to stay healthy. Whether it's the stickwork, pucks, hits, or general injury, I have serious reservations about him being able to remain healthy throughout this contract. Horny takes more abuse on a shift-by-shift basis than anyone I've ever seen. It's nearly every shift that someone is full-on punching him in the head, or lumberjack chopping at him with their stick. Like others have said, JJ is a miserable player and that signing was the height of arrogance and absurdity by JR, and they're not really comparable (JJ and Hornqvist), but it's not crazy to be genuinely worried about Hornqvist moving forward. Particularly with the full NTC for another several years.

 

[EightyOne]

I love Debrincat.

6.4mil is a lot, though.

 

[Khelandros]

Hornqvist will be able to perform his role and play his style indefinitely. Holmstrom did it until he was like 40. I worry about Hornqvist's ability to stay healthy. Whether it's the stickwork, pucks, hits, or general injury, I have serious reservations about him being able to remain healthy throughout this contract. Horny takes more abuse on a shift-by-shift basis than anyone I've ever seen. It's nearly every shift that someone is full-on punching him in the head, or lumberjack chopping at him with their stick. Like others have said, JJ is a miserable player and that signing was the height of arrogance and absurdity by JR, and they're not really comparable (JJ and Hornqvist), but it's not crazy to be genuinely worried about Hornqvist moving forward. Particularly with the full NTC for another several years.

His concussions last season were from fluke pucks hitting him. I don't think his health will be an issue.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

I love Debrincat.

6.4mil is a lot, though.

Felt almost the opposite, healthy season you're getting 30-40 goals every time it would appear, seems more than fair.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

I love Debrincat.

6.4mil is a lot, though.

At 3 years term too. Debrincat is a better player than Jake, but I don't think Jake is at all far off. So to have Guentzel at 6x6 while Debrincat got 6.4 x 3, feels nice

 

[dogthateats]

Jake is pretty clutch in the playoffs. I don’t have a problem with the Debrincat contract though.

 

[Peat]

Stuff from Rossi's Q&A if anyone cares

- Doesn't understand the Marino thing but speculates it might be wanting to have him practice while Gonchar is around
- Suspects Rutherford has a deal that he doesn't like but knows won't change, and that he's dragging his heels
- Doesn't think Rust was involved in any such deal
- His 4 most likely Pens to be traded are JJ/Jarry/Bjoogs/ZAR in that order

 

[billybudd]

Felt almost the opposite, healthy season you're getting 30-40 goals every time it would appear, seems more than fair.

To put this expectation in context, Kane cleared the 30 goal mark 4 times in 12 seasons (40 once). Toews did it 3 times.

The hope you're putting on Debrincat is that he'll consistently score goals at the clip of a young Crosby, Malkin, McDavid or Ovechkin. I don't think this is at all realistic.

 

[Darren McCord]

I mean, Debrincat is probably just as good as Jake if not better given the argument of who Debrincat plays with.

Ya and jake signed for less and two years longer. I know he's as good but Jake could have gotten more is the point.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

His concussions last season were from fluke pucks hitting him. I don't think his health will be an issue.

You're not at all concerned about a guy who gets the snot kicked out of him on a nightly basis, playing a net-front presence, wearing down as he ages?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Makes sense to me. Do you think there's a chance he does something rash with another player because he's frustrated and still doesn't want to accept the price on moving JJ

It’s JR, who knows what he will do.

I’d think he could move Guds or Bjugstad more easily than JJ if he really needed space.

He’s been trying to move JJ for awhile now though, that’s all I can keep stressing. What the asking price for him to do so, who knows, but if it wasn’t a big ask, JJ would be gone by now I’m 100% sure of that.

Other GMs have him by the nutsack and it’s his own doing, and I don’t think he wants to make the bad trade that makes him look like a dumb f*** for the JJ deal.

 

[Deport Ogie]

It seems counter-intuitive but when you stop and think, good net front guys often have long, productive careers. Holmstrom, Andreychuk, Ciccarelli, Hartnell, even Chris Kunitz could be included here.

 

[bathroomSTAAL]

Adam Larsson to LTIR. Wonder if there are any spare unwanted defensemen around the Oilers might want

 

[Empoleon8771]

It’s JR, who knows what he will do.

I’d think he could move Guds or Bjugstad more easily than JJ if he really needed space.

He’s been trying to move JJ for awhile now though, that’s all I can keep stressing. What the asking price for him to do so, who knows, but if it wasn’t a big ask, JJ would be gone by now I’m 100% sure of that.

Other GMs have him by the nutsack and it’s his own doing, and I don’t think he wants to make the bad trade that makes him look like a dumb **** for the JJ deal.

I know that JR has been trying to trade JJ, but do you have an idea for how JR actually feels about Johnson? Does he want to trade JJ because he thinks JJ is bad and it was a mistake to bring him in or does he want to trade JJ because JJ has been made expendable by younger/better defensemen? If he's actually fine with JJ as a player but just views JJ as expendable, I think there's a fairly easy out for this situation: trade Gudbranson and make Johnson-Marino the bottom pair. I do think it sucks to trade Gudbranson so quickly after acquiring him, especially because he seems like a good locker room guy, but JJ-Marino would allow you to limit Johnson on a bottom pair role and play him with a RD that fits what he needs from a RD.

If he just doesn't like spending as much money as he's spending on depth D, trading Johnson isn't the only out he has. If the options are paying out the ass to move Johnson or getting rid of Gudbranson relatively easily, I don't know how he can just dig his heels and refuse to do anything.

 

[Khelandros]

You're not at all concerned about a guy who gets the snot kicked out of him on a nightly basis, playing a net-front presence, wearing down as he ages?

Not at all. It's the concussions that derailed him last season.

 

[Andy99]

I know that JR has been trying to trade JJ, but do you have an idea for how JR actually feels about Johnson? Does he want to trade JJ because he thinks JJ is bad and it was a mistake to bring him in or does he want to trade JJ because JJ has been made expendable by younger/better defensemen? If he's actually fine with JJ as a player but just views JJ as expendable, I think there's a fairly easy out for this situation: trade Gudbranson and make Johnson-Marino the bottom pair. I do think it sucks to trade Gudbranson so quickly after acquiring him, especially because he seems like a good locker room guy, but JJ-Marino would allow you to limit Johnson on a bottom pair role and play him with a RD that fits what he needs from a RD.

If he just doesn't like spending as much money as he's spending on depth D, trading Johnson isn't the only out he has. If the options are paying out the ass to move Johnson or getting rid of Gudbranson relatively easily, I don't know how he can just dig his heels and refuse to do anything.

Pretty sure he thinks JJ sucks except on the PK, just like the rest of us...he has a whole analytics team

 

[Empoleon8771]

Pretty sure he thinks JJ sucks except on the PK, just like the rest of us...he has a whole analytics team

He had a whole analytics team prior to signing JJ, so this comment is baseless.

 

[chethejet]

GMJR needs a trade partner for JJ and that may not happen until the TDL. For me Reese is expendable and Kuhny may be if he just is not a fit. He has talent but maybe not a fit on this team. That is 1.95 million in cap space.

 

[Andy99]

He had a whole analytics team prior to signing JJ, so this comment is baseless.

THat too...he ignored it for reasons all of us has speculated about

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I know that JR has been trying to trade JJ, but do you have an idea for how JR actually feels about Johnson? Does he want to trade JJ because he thinks JJ is bad and it was a mistake to bring him in or does he want to trade JJ because JJ has been made expendable by younger/better defensemen? If he's actually fine with JJ as a player but just views JJ as expendable, I think there's a fairly easy out for this situation: trade Gudbranson and make Johnson-Marino the bottom pair. I do think it sucks to trade Gudbranson so quickly after acquiring him, especially because he seems like a good locker room guy, but JJ-Marino would allow you to limit Johnson on a bottom pair role and play him with a RD that fits what he needs from a RD.

If he just doesn't like spending as much money as he's spending on depth D, trading Johnson isn't the only out he has. If the options are paying out the ass to move Johnson or getting rid of Gudbranson relatively easily, I don't know how he can just dig his heels and refuse to do anything.

It doesn’t matter how JR feels about him, IMHO, because the reason I was able to tell you Sprong and Kessel were goners months before they were traded is because I was told Sullivan didn’t want to deal with them anymore, basically.

So the question should be “does Sullivan like JJ” and I don’t know the answer for sure. I do know he was scratched for the first game of the playoffs and JR has been trying to move him all summer. IMHO he doesn’t play Sullivan’s game and he wants him gone.

Just don’t believe the spin JR is putting out there. Don’t forget Dupuis talked about the locker room problems in Dec, and the Pens shut it down like Dupuis was a lying traitor.

Then at season’s end the truth came out and Dupuis was vindicated.

It is what it is. Spin doctoring at its finest. We love JJ, he’s good at... things... robble robble...

 

[Empoleon8771]

Oh yeah, it's completely easy to see through JR's comments, I'm just not sure what their actual opinion on JJ is. If the team is still fine with him, but likely Gudbranson more, I think that's different than the team disliking him. At that point, trading Gudbranson and keeping JJ should be viewed as a viable alternative. I'm not crazy about that idea, but with Marino legitimately pressing for a roster spot, something has to give on RD.

It goes back to a question I asked last week, would you rather add dramatically on top of JJ and have Riikola-Gudbranson as your bottom pair or get a return for Gudbranson and have Johnson-Marino as the bottom pair? And by "you", I mean the Penguins management and coaches. Everyone here rightfully hates Johnson and doesn't hate Gudbranson yet, so I understand why the responses were overwhelmingly for Riikola-Gudbranson. However, I think it's a lot more of a debate that other will say it is. If the team is fine with Johnson but just likes Gudbranson more, I think there's a legit debate there.

 

[Pancakes]

He had a whole analytics team prior to signing JJ, so this comment is baseless.

My working assumption is he agreed with the analytics team but that he and Sullivan thought they could rehabilitate JJ into a useful player since the physical skills were still there. (They kinda aren't really, JJ is slow and not particularly skilled with the puck these days, but anyhow)

That assumption has since been proven false since JJ has been as bad as ever even working with Gonchar and Sullivan who have been shown to get a lot out of other defensemen like Oleksiak, Schultz, etc.

So I am reasonably sure that privately JR is in the same boat now where he knows JJ is bad and also knows we can't really fix him like he thought.

Pure speculation on my part, I admit, but it's the only theory that makes sense for me because I am certain the analytics people told him how bad JJ was and I doubt JR would just ignore that. Not when many of his other past moves like moving on from Sutter for Bonino, grabbing Daley for Scuds, Neal for Horny, were all moves for superior puck possession guys compared to the guys being moved out.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Oh yeah, it's completely easy to see through JR's comments, I'm just not sure what their actual opinion on JJ is. If the team is still fine with him, but likely Gudbranson more, I think that's different than the team disliking him. At that point, trading Gudbranson and keeping JJ should be viewed as a viable alternative. I'm not crazy about that idea, but with Marino legitimately pressing for a roster spot, something has to give on RD.

It goes back to a question I asked last week, would you rather add dramatically on top of JJ and have Riikola-Gudbranson as your bottom pair or get a return for Gudbranson and have Johnson-Marino as the bottom pair? And by "you", I mean the Penguins management and coaches. Everyone here rightfully hates Johnson and doesn't hate Gudbranson yet, so I understand why the responses were overwhelmingly for Riikola-Gudbranson. However, I think it's a lot more of a debate that other will say it is. If the team is fine with Johnson but just likes Gudbranson more, I think there's a legit debate there.

Gubs is a head cracker, that’s one thing JR insists on so...

I think it’s just do they dislike JJ’s game so much that they are willing to pay a heavy price to be rid of him?

So far that answer is no, but that doesn’t mean Sullivan wouldn’t rather not have him on his roster. It’s not a situation where JJ can just be moved because Sullivan doesn’t prefer him.

They are basically stuck with him unless JR wants to pony up.