Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Clever Thread Title Needed

[Dangles78]

That's fair, but @Dangles78 never said Petts was "bad" just "likely not as good as a few seasons ago". No reason to put words in peoples' mouths.

I'm of the opinion that one of Pettersson or Matheson need to go for cap space. And I'd prefer to keep Matheson because of his "game breaking" skating abilities. Protect neither and let Seattle take whoever they want. Or, as already mentioned, just see who the Kraken want and leave that one defender exposed.

Still: #ProtectRiikola

Lol right. Nowhere in my post did I say that Pettersson has been bad. In fact, I've been one of his biggest supporters this year early on. You'd figure Emp would be happy for once since I mentioned my thinking regarding Matheson has changed. The fact remains - POJ can replace Petts and Ceci will be cheaper and is a RHS. Not that difficult to come to the assumption that Petts is the odd man out as it stands.

 

[MayorofWBS]

Pettersson looks much better than Marino. Can’t wait for this board to turn on that contract next year if he keeps his play up.

How about if you hated it the second you saw the thread for his new contract?

Hope this doesn't blow up in the Penguins face. They are playing with fire. He better not be a one year wonder. There is far more history he doesn't repeat his number from his first year.

Anyways, we need to be very careful on Ceci, ZAR and erod. They are at reasonable prices now but if they ask for much more than what they make now....we need to cut our ties. No term over two years for any of those three. All I can say, is thank god JR isn't still around as we definitely would be making a big mistake with Ceci.

PS - Thinking about it more, we shouldn't offer more than a 1 year deal to either Ceci or erod.

 

[KIRK]

Pettersson looks much better than Marino. Can’t wait for this board to turn on that contract next year if he keeps his play up.

Leaving Marino aside (who yes has his own big time issues right now), my problem with Petts is he's so god damned vanilla. Making 4M as a 3rd pairing defenseman, does many things competently but nothing better than that, and is soft as hell on a team that is soft as hell.

Maybe if Marino were a thumper to go with the rest of it, Petts wouldn't be so bad (or visa versa).

I'm thinking it's going to be a very busy summer for Hextall. Malkin and Letang will be here next year regardless (even if it is to play out their deals), but you've gotta think pretty much everyone-- and I mean everyone-- is fair game to get the mix back on track.

 

[Gurglesons]

Leaving Marino aside (who yes has his own big time issues right now), my problem with Petts is he's so god damned vanilla. Making 4M as a 3rd pairing defenseman, does many things competently but nothing better than that, and is soft as hell on a team that is soft as hell.

Maybe if Marino were a thumper to go with the rest of it, Petts wouldn't be so bad (or visa versa).

I'm thinking it's going to be a very busy summer for Hextall. Malkin and Letang will be here next year regardless (even if it is to play out their deals), but you've gotta think pretty much everyone-- and I mean everyone-- is fair game to get the mix back on track.

I think the same thing could be said about Marino though. And he's getting just as physically worked if not more so than Petts lately because he is trying to do things he simply doesn't have the ability to do anymore apparently after 6 months lol.

 

[KIRK]

I think the same thing could be said about Marino though. And he's getting just as physically worked if not more so than Petts lately because he is trying to do things he simply doesn't have the ability to do anymore apparently after 6 months lol.

Why I said in parenthesis 'or visa versa'.

All goes back to just how god awful the mix is . . .

 

[Gurglesons]

Why I said in parenthesis 'or visa versa'.

All goes back to just how god awful the mix is . . .

I look at Colorado's defense and see a very similar template to ours.

I dunno. I struggle so much with this team. I'm worried we have a good team and a bad coach at this point for it.

 

[KIRK]

I look at Colorado's defense and see a very similar template to ours.

I dunno. I struggle so much with this team. I'm worried we have a good team and a bad coach at this point for it.

I see some 'similarity' in the top combo (at least Letang-Makar) but the big difference is the 2nd pairing. For as pleasant a surprise as Matheson-Ceci have been, they're not Graves-Girard. Colorado's blueprint is to ride the hell out of two pairings and insulate a low paid third pairing. The Pens approach is different than that . . . and includes a 8M bottom pairing next year.

EDIT: I get what you're saying. No real thumper. BUT, damn the way that D moves the puck is on another level compared to the Pens.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Leaving Marino aside (who yes has his own big time issues right now), my problem with Petts is he's so god damned vanilla. Making 4M as a 3rd pairing defenseman, does many things competently but nothing better than that, and is soft as hell on a team that is soft as hell.

Maybe if Marino were a thumper to go with the rest of it, Petts wouldn't be so bad (or visa versa).

I'm thinking it's going to be a very busy summer for Hextall. Malkin and Letang will be here next year regardless (even if it is to play out their deals), but you've gotta think pretty much everyone-- and I mean everyone-- is fair game to get the mix back on track.

Never liked the Pettersson contract because you don't spend that much money (especially at that term) on a guy who is a bottom pairing defender, who has the absolute upside of maybe being a defensively reliable 2nd pairing guy. And that's assuming he reaches his absolute ceiling.

When you can replace what Pettersson brings for a fraction of the price, you shouldn't be allocating that kind of money to a player like him. Can you honestly tell me that a guy like Ruhwedel or a free agent "bargain" signing like a Bogosian can't bring what Pettersson brings, while at the fraction of the cost?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Never liked the Pettersson contract because you don't spend that much money (especially at that term) on a guy who is a bottom pairing defender, who has the absolute upside of maybe being a defensively reliable 2nd pairing guy. And that's assuming he reaches his absolute ceiling.

When you can replace what Pettersson brings for a fraction of the price, you shouldn't be allocating that kind of money to a player like him. Can you honestly tell me that a guy like Ruhwedel or a free agent "bargain" signing like a Bogosian can't bring what Pettersson brings, while at the fraction of the cost?

Uh yes? Very easily.

Just because this site has a hate boner for Pettersson doesn't mean that the evaluation of Pettersson here is realistic

The problem with Pettersson's deal is that he's a vanilla #4 defenseman that they're paying a pretty rich price for, while playing a position that is a strength in the organization. He's not replacable with waiver caliber scrubs like Ruhwedel or Bogosian, go ask teams like Buffalo how running with that kind of D on their middle pair would go. Go ask Buffalo how Bogosian did for them in a middle pair role:



And to talk about usage, that was with Bogosian getting 3rd pair D matchups for the most part based on QoC (2nd pair matchups in 16-17, 3rd pair matchups in 17-18, 18-19 and 19-20). Ristolainen got all of the super difficult minutes with the Sabres.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Uh yes? Very easily.

Just because this site has a hate boner for Pettersson doesn't mean that the evaluation of Pettersson here is realistic

The problem with Pettersson's deal is that he's a vanilla #4 defenseman that they're paying a pretty rich price for, while playing a position that is a strength in the organization. He's not replacable with waiver caliber scrubs like Ruhwedel or Bogosian, go ask teams like Buffalo how running with that kind of D on their middle pair would go. Go ask Buffalo how Bogosian did for them in a middle pair role:



And to talk about usage, that was with Bogosian getting 3rd pair D matchups for the most part based on QoC (2nd pair matchups in 16-17, 3rd pair matchups in 17-18, 18-19 and 19-20). Ristolainen got all of the super difficult minutes with the Sabres.

Why are we using how he did in Buffalo as a reference point? That's the kind of arguments people made about why Taylor Hall would be a lousy pickup at the deadline because he sucked in Buffalo. Bogosian was fine in a limited role on Tampa when they won the Cup, and he's been fine on Toronto's bottom pairing this year.

And the "upgrade" is the point. Even if Pettersson is better, is he worth $3 million extra to pay for a bottom pairing guy who only needs to play 15-16 minutes per night and play on the PK when you can allocate that money elsewhere?

Not to mention, he was an example. Choose another cheap bargain bin signing if you want. Hell, Ceci's an example of the type of defender you can get on a relatively cheap deal in free agency that can provide what Pettersson provides, but at half the cost.

Paying a guy $4 million to be on the 3rd pairing is poor cap management, especially when what he brings isn't exactly all that much better than the cheaper alternatives.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why are we using how he did in Buffalo as a reference point? That's the kind of arguments people made about why Taylor Hall would be a lousy pickup at the deadline because he sucked in Buffalo. Bogosian was fine in a limited role on Tampa when they won the Cup, and he's been fine on Toronto's bottom pairing this year.

And the "upgrade" is the point. Even if Pettersson is better, is he worth $3 million extra to pay for a bottom pairing guy who only needs to play 15-16 minutes per night and play on the PK when you can allocate that money elsewhere?

Because you mentioned Bogosian as someone who could step in and replace Pettersson's role, but when he did that for Buffalo, he was downright atrocious.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Because you mentioned Bogosian as someone who could step in and replace Pettersson's role, but when he did that for Buffalo, he was downright atrocious.

Uh, if you look at Sullivan's usage of Pettersson, he's closer to Bogosian's role in Tampa/Toronto than he is Bogosian's role in Buffalo.

Letang/Dumo get the most, followed by the Matheson/Ceci pairing, then Marino usually gets similar to those two, with Pettersson usually getting the least.

He's literally getting #6 usage under Sullivan. So why are we paying $4 million for a guy getting #6 minutes when we can get a cheap option who can simply play bottom pairing and PK minutes?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Uh, if you look at Sullivan's usage of Pettersson, he's closer to Bogosian's role in Tampa/Toronto than he is Bogosian's role in Buffalo.

Letang/Dumo get the most, followed by the Matheson/Ceci pairing, then Marino usually gets similar to those two, with Pettersson usually getting the least.

He's literally getting #6 usage under Sullivan. So why are we paying $4 million for a guy getting #6 minutes when we can get a cheap option who can simply play bottom pairing and PK minutes?

No he's not. Go look at Bogosian's actual usage in Buffalo. He was consistently used like a 3rd pair defenseman for Buffalo because Ristolainen and Montour got most of the difficult minutes for Buffalo.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

No he's not. Go look at Bogosian's actual usage in Buffalo. He was consistently used like a 3rd pair defenseman for Buffalo because Ristolainen and Montour got most of the difficult minutes for Buffalo.

Okay, and? Buffalo's a bad team. Players will look even worse on bad teams (ie. Taylor Hall). Why are you ignoring his play with Tampa and Toronto in limited roles as the #6 defenseman? He's been fine both places. That's all we need here. We don't need great or even good. Just someone who can play PK and not kill you getting #6 minutes for cheap.

Let me ask you, do you think it's smart cap allocation paying someone $4 million per year to play #6 minutes? It's like you're stuck on my Bogosian example and not the overall point, which is that you can find a cheaper defenseman who can slot into that #6 hole that doesn't cost you middle pairing money.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Okay, and? Buffalo's a bad team. Players will look even worse on bad teams (ie. Taylor Hall). Why are you ignoring his play with Tampa and Toronto in limited roles as the #6 defenseman? He's been fine both places. That's all we need here. We don't need great or even good. Just someone who can play PK and not kill you getting #6 minutes for cheap.

Let me ask you, do you think it's smart cap allocation paying someone $4 million per year to play #6 minutes? It's like you're stuck on my Bogosian example and not the overall point, which is that you can find a cheaper defenseman who can slot into that #6 hole that doesn't cost you middle pairing money.

Because that's not how Pettersson is used here? Maybe he was used that way this year, but he was absolutely not used that way last year or the year before.

Comparing Pettersson to Bogosian in Toronto or Tampa doesn't work because Pettersson gets dramatically more difficult minutes than Bogosian got in either of those two cities. Bogosian was completely sheltered for those two teams, Pettersson faces fairly average competition (middle-6 caliber).

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Because that's not how Pettersson is used here?

Comparing Pettersson to Bogosian in Toronto or Tampa doesn't work because Pettersson gets dramatically more difficult minutes than Bogosian got in either of those two cities.

It's still #6 on the minutes list.

Pettersson got 16:29 this year with the Pens, largely because of injuries and playing more when a guy like Dumoulin was out and everyone saw their minutes bumped up. When everyone was healthy, Pettersson was having games of 12:32, 12:56, 14:13, 14:18, etc. In comparison, Bogosian got 14:32 per game with Toronto this year.

And again, you're fixated on Bogosian rather than the big point. #6 defensemen shouldn't be making $4 million per year in a cap world. Why you're ignoring THIS part to focus on whether or not Bogosian's averaging 2 less minutes per game than Pettersson somehow proves Bogosian can't handle Pettersson's role here is strange.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's still #6 on the minutes list.

Pettersson got 16:29 this year with the Pens, largely because of injuries and playing more when a guy like Dumoulin was out and everyone saw their minutes bumped up. When everyone was healthy, Pettersson was having games of 12:32, 12:56, 14:13, 14:18, etc. In comparison, Bogosian got 14:32 per game with Toronto this year.

And again, you're fixated on Bogosian rather than the big point. #6 defensemen shouldn't be making $4 million per year in a cap world. Why you're ignoring THIS part to focus on whether or not Bogosian's averaging 2 less minutes per game than Pettersson somehow proves Bogosian can't handle Pettersson's role here is strange.

Judging players usage based solely on ice time is a lazy analysis. A guy who plays tough matchups in #6 minutes isn't the same as a guy who gets insanely sheltered with #6 minutes. Come on now.

 

[Peat]

This team doesn't like having a limited role pairing on the third pair. It far prefers having 2A and 2B. It's racked up Matheson-Ceci's minutes because they've been playing out of their skins but that was never the plan and you've got to wonder how long it will continue to be the case. I completely get questioning keeping Pettersson at his current usage but the idea this team would be happy with a Bogosian is way off.

I look at Colorado's defense and see a very similar template to ours.

I dunno. I struggle so much with this team. I'm worried we have a good team and a bad coach at this point for it.

They pretty much built this team specifically for this coach, no?

Tbh, the main two issues I see here is it just can't stay stay fit to save its life, and a slight mental block at times. First is nothing to do with the coach, latter might be. Big challenge for the front office is finding out how to maintain the team while making it better in the blue paint; big challenge for the coaches is returning Marino to the borderline elite puck mover he was in his first season.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

One thing I haven't seen brought up in here is what if the Pens trade for one of the LTIR contracts to allow them to be above the cap. Toronto did that a few years ago.

Like say trade for Andrew Shaw who has one year remaining at 3.9 mil. Or Ryan Kesler who has one year remaining at 6.875 mil. Both teams are rebuilding and won't be looking to max their salary caps and would probably gladly take a draft pick for not having to pay the money.

 

[66-30-33]

Looks like Canucks are melting down reading the thread on the main boards. What can Hex/Burke rob from them?

Marino/Petts for Hughes/Schmidt.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'll have one J.T. Miller, please. Thank you!

 

[66-30-33]

I'll have one J.T. Miller, please. Thank you!

Hmmm. Seattle take Zucker, Pens trade Petts (and other stuff) in a deal for JT. Miller.

 

[Peat]

Hmmm. Seattle take Zucker, Pens trade Petts (and other stuff) in a deal for JT. Miller.

A lot of other stuff.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

A lot of other stuff.

Eight straight 7ths it is.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Tbh I don't think you can get Miller without trading Guentzel. Imagine if Guentzel could regularly play center and was 220 lbs, that's basically the caliber of player that Miller is.